ASA/CMR merger?

[Sinca3]

13 yrs to see mainline!

Ok now these are just generalizations using non scientific numbers. Just me playing with these numbers for me to get an idea on a staple with all future new hires of DAL going to the bottom of the combined (DAL/ASA/Comair) seniority list.
Disclaimer out of the way....
If there was a staple of a combined ASA/Comair list (3200 pilots)to DALPAs list and there were let's say 20mnth/240yr retirements from the seniority list, the bottom of the list wouldn't see a mainline a/c for 13 years! This doen't even include the 1060 guys on the street thatg would have to be back first!! Now I now that there are more variables to this scenario, like more equipment in the fleet but like I said it is just a little food for thought.
I am in no means against or for a staple at this time just thinking out loud here.
Cheers

 

[rjcap]

My concern mostly is returning the furloughs to their planes, and then bringing more people on behind me

Food for thought.

The combined hiring at ASA/Comair next year will be about 40 per month. Add to that all the flying that is outsourced - Skywest, ACA, CHQ - and you pretty much have all your furloughees back at work within a year. Many of them will be flying CRJ's until they are absorbed back into mainline but who cares.

One question.

If seniority lists are stapled what would be the effective date ????

ASA was purchased in May 1999 and Comair approximately 1 year later.

How many Delta pilots were hired after those above dates ???

 

[DDpaysoff]

Food for thought.



One question.

If seniority lists are stapled what would be the effective date ????

Are you serious with that question? It sounds like you could care less about the comair pilot group as a whole and only what is in it for you. That won't fly, I don't care how long you have been here.

Comair FO

 

[General Lee]

The way I would see it, and remember I have NO say in this matter, is that Comair and ASA would be merged date of hire, and then stapled onto the Delta list---if it were ever to occur. Hopefully someday we would expand again, and the 1060 would come back and the others would bid up to other aircraft. Remember--from 1996 to 1999 we hired close to 3000 or so pilots onto mainline--and they all went to 737 or larger jets. Who knows what will happen in the near future...?


This is all speculation, with no insight from anyone at Dalpa--and it only expresses MY view.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[601Pilot]

Re: 13 yrs to see mainline!

Ok now these are just generalizations using non scientific numbers. Just me playing with these numbers for me to get an idea on a staple with all future new hires of DAL going to the bottom of the combined (DAL/ASA/Comair) seniority list.
Disclaimer out of the way....
If there was a staple of a combined ASA/Comair list (3200 pilots)to DALPAs list and there were let's say 20mnth/240yr retirements from the seniority list, the bottom of the list wouldn't see a mainline a/c for 13 years! This doen't even include the 1060 guys on the street thatg would have to be back first!! Now I now that there are more variables to this scenario, like more equipment in the fleet but like I said it is just a little food for thought.
I am in no means against or for a staple at this time just thinking out loud here.
Cheers

Well, you have to remember that some of your senior Captains
at ASA and CMR would not move to a bigger a/c and back to
the right seat. You would actually see more movement than
just retirements.

 

[FLB717]

The Paramedics just used a defibulator to revive me, and I reread the posts and was..ahhhg....ZAP.....ZAP....ok Im back again. Im sooo happy that the light has been seen and most agree its not a train. Keep the faith..one list

 

[General Lee]

FLB717,

As long as it is a staple, I don't think any Delta pilot would mind at all. The ASA/Comair guys would have to probably combine date of hire---which would be fair for them. I just don't think Delta would like that, but maybe Dalpa will force it---who knows?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[601Pilot]

Merger

FLB717,

As long as it is a staple, I don't think any Delta pilot would mind at all. The ASA/Comair guys would have to probably combine date of hire---which would be fair for them. I just don't think Delta would like that, but maybe Dalpa will force it---who knows?

Bye Bye--General Lee

I would be happy with a combined ASA/CMR list (DOH) and then
a staple to the Delta list. Some of the senior guys that don't
plan on moving over to DAL, would probably want some kind of
fence protection for their seat but I assume we could work something out.
I think the big sticking point with most DAL
pilots is that new hires at DAL would have to go to the bottom
of the combined list and possibly into an RJ instead of an MD88
or 737.

 

[General Lee]

601pilot,

I think you are correct, but with the last huge furlough and the growth of the RJs----most military new hires would go to the RJs anyways. Most of those guys have never seen an RJ cockpit and then compared it to an older 737-200. I think that most associate RJs with lower pay. If things started to flow again like they did in '96, people would find themselves in a 50 seat RJ or ATR for a year or two to start, then a 70 seater for 1 year, followed by the 100 seater right seat or 50 seat left seat, and then onto a larger mainline aircraft. 4 or 5 years in an RJ to start, and then onto larger equipment. That is what I would like to see, and most military pilots now watching this current job market probably wouldn't mind. They would have to go to a 100 seater initially if they went to Jetblue in a couple years too. IF they want to avoid the RJs---I would tell them to go to Southwest or Airtran---but then their chances of eventually flying INTL would be decreased. (for now anyways) Some people don't care about having that choice--and that is fine.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[601Pilot]

re: Merger

General,

I hope that's the case especially with the DAL MEC. Prelim
awards today showed 70 seat Captain at about 2 1/2 years
here at ASA. I doubt that will hold up on the final, but probably
around 3 1/2 years. If times were good, then it would be alot
lower.

I just don't know what ASA and CMR have to offer to the DAL
group to move along the process.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

As Gee Lee pointed out a couple of months ago, "Anything can be negotiated."

Each party in this situation has the capability to provide something that the other party wants. Managment says they want, no NEED, vast concessions. Pilots want some job security by eliminating the whipsawing of one pilot group against each other. That's the need.

Management can redo the manner with which they do business, currently the Jump Ball - Free for All approach. Pilots can grant the relaxing from contractural stipulations such as payrates and work rules. That's the relief.

Fingerpointing (especially the middle finger) as to just who is at fault here is irrelevant. Deal with it, then move on.

I think everyone would agree that this infighting is not only pointless, it is detrimental to the overall strength and survivability of our company. If the company wants us to change our contract (that's how we do our jobs -- our business if you will) then a profound operational reorganization is necessary. MBA-types would call it a paradigm shift. I have zero interest in enabling the company to continue this pitting of me against fellow workers and my union bretheren.

If that is too much of a stretch for management to agree to then screw 'em. We'll just hold up that little piece of paper, smile, and say 'a contract is a contract -- thanks for playing Airline Jeopardy. Be sure to pick up some lovely parting gifts.'

I'm out.

 

[Lance501]

just an idea.....maybe its crazy

CMR/ASA merge doh, then they are stapled to the DAL list. Brand scope is in place, every one is called back and all are happy. If there is another down turn and furloughs are required then original DAL pilots can only flow back as far as the 70+ seaters. That way everone gains but 2/3's the pilot group doesn't have to give up everything to get it done. The strength would be there without anyone really losing their current position in the whole scheme of the bottom of their respective lists. Delta is stronger because all A/C scope is gone and we can compete in every market with the best A/C.
Maybe we could stop this ugly race to the bottom.

Ok pick it apart,

 

[General Lee]

I like it----and it gives protection to everyone. Sell it to management---and I will be amazed. They probably wouldn't like all of the leverage we would have, but they could right size the markets.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Palerider957]

General:

We would need the help of mainline DAL pilots to make this happen. Since the company is asking you for concessions, perhaps this is one thing you could demand in exchange. DALPA would be able to more properly control and monitor the flying done by DCI and it would greatly enhance job security and get the furloughees back to work. As for us, we are in contract negotiations right now, and while I'm NOT willing to give $$ (I can't afford to), I would be willing to work with the company for a reduced increase in wages as long a QOL was improved.

Comair guys would have to do some soal searching to see what angle they can approach this with.

It's possible, and would be healthy for all of us. It would take the muscle of all pilot groups involved.

Having said that, anything healthy for us will probably be shot down by management.

 

[rjcap]

Are you serious with that question? It sounds like you could care less about the comair pilot group as a whole and only what is in it for you. That won't fly, I don't care how long you have been here.

Relax and take a chill pill.

I posted those questions to see if anybody had actually thought through this process of merging/stapling. I believe ASA and Comair would be merged DOH and then stapled. However, you never know how these issues would be handled.

Anybody else want to have an irrational First Officer response.

 

[rjcap]

Having said that, anything healthy for us will probably be shot down by management

Maybe not.


Consider that Leo wants to rebuild Delta to be the premier major airline. Suppose he gets concessions/scope relief at the expense of combining pilot groups. Suppose the airline grows and rebounds to record profitibility. Leo looks like a hero and then leaves with all his stock options and benefits before the next unified pilot contract has to be negotiated.

 

[General Lee]

It could happen. I'll mention it to the people I know.(which might not help at all)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Maybe not.

Consider that Leo wants to rebuild Delta to be the premier major airline. Suppose he gets concessions/scope relief at the expense of combining pilot groups. Suppose the airline grows and rebounds to record profitibility. Leo looks like a hero and then leaves with all his stock options and benefits before the next unified pilot contract has to be negotiated.

This is a very old expression but maybe you'll catch the drift.

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

This is a very old expression but maybe you'll catch the drift.

"If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

Yawn, from the know it all who is usually wrong.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[N2264J]

merger?

Yawn, from the know it all who is usually wrong.

--a concerned regional pilot

Indulge me. How long have you been an airline pilot?

A union member?