ASA/CMR merger?

[wms]

I agree that Skip and Drew are good guys. But most of our middle and exec VP's are a little weak. Not that they're bad, but the company has grown beyond their ability to manage their depts.

If a merger takes place, it will be at the direction of DAL because it makes sense, and who ends up with or without a job in the end is secondary.

The month before we went west, they came to DFW and said it wasn't going to happen. Before they started retiring the E120s they said it was a rumor and wasn't going to happen. The month before we went to SLC they said we'd never go to SLC. Last month the mgr of crew planning said no more growth for DFW, this month there are new 70 seat positions in the prelims. I'm not saying what will or will not happen, but the only way to know is to wait and see. And the higher up the info comes from doesn't mean it's more accurate. Many times it's just someone else who has hopes just like us.

DCI mgmt aren't the only resistance. Half the MEC lifer's would be gone also. Not only is there conflict of interest at mgmt and ALPA National, but even our own MEC's feel their positions would be in jeopardy. Also, in many mergers over lapping functions are thinned out, ie the GO, OCC, training, recruiting, etc.

I say do it, keep the best of each company and have a quality mgmt, MEC and work force.

 

[sleepy]

Re: Merger

Hey guys

I sat in on the first of several "State of the company" meetings that our President Skip Barnett will hold over the next week or so.

Among many things stated and asked, the Comair/ASA merger question came up.

His answer was a profound NO WAY, Delta would never go for it, nor in all of their opinions would it be good overall for anybody, why not, he did not address. End of discussion. Atleast as far as he is concerned.

Medeco

I sure would not be good for the ASA good ol' boy management team. Most would be looking for a new job.

 

[Palerider957]

WMS

I think you are dead on. People seem to talk in absolutes (usually negative) then all of a sudden things are reversed and we have new equipment/destinations-whatever.

You bring up an interesting point with regard to MEC's interest, I'd like to think they are actually working for us, but I know that may not always be the reality.

As for ridding DAL of a duplication of managaement, recruiting, etc., I would think this would be one of the major draws to a merger. I have to beleive a ton of $$$ could be saved here.

Did anyone get any interesting info. from the "State Of The Company" meetings? As a commuter I don't have a chance to drop in on these meetings.

 

[Medeco]

WMS

I read your post with interest and wonder how you come to some of your conclusions.

A friendly Debate.
I am your ASA brother.

I agree that some of the upper management is limited in depth. But, Everytime I have listened to SB talk in person he has never said anything that has not come true. That may not be true for his officers, I dont care what they say, unless it is in his presence.

I was hired in Dec 02, he said in our class we were hired for the expansion in DFW, and he "could not comment on going west" since we are a public company (Delta), he gave a big smile to the question, basically saying yes we are. He did the same kind of thing yesterday at the meeting in regards to the 700 flying, but said they will be mostly upgrades.

He said at the same time Delta had decided to speed up the retirement of the EMB120, eventhough ASA had been planning to go into 2004 with them, this helps your argument that they do as Delta says. I dont dispute this, but they must plan(ASA) regardless of wether DAL decides to change things afterward.

When he answered the Comair/ASA merger question, he also said that if Leo Mullen were standing here today, he would also say NO WAY, again, I dont understand why it would not make money sense for DAL, obviously the pilot group would be a power problem.

I hear all the rumors like you, but I only believe what I see in print on myASA, press releases, or out of SB's mouth.

All this speculation on flightinfo gives me ulcers, how about you?

By the way, I would have to say that other than SB, I would have to say his #2 Brian LeBreck(SP) is pretty impressive, Senior VP of ground operations. He also spoke and had some good things to say.

Underground fueling will become the norm for all but about 15% of ATL operations, the ATR locations will not allow for it, and the fuel supplier has been givin till the end of 03 to fix/sustain the delays or they are gone.

Paperless cockpit is back on high priority, namely ACARS, anything that will speed up things with regard to the crews, is high priority, the wiz wheel is going bye bye. ACAR's by end of 04.

Ship 702 will have a prototype in it in about 2 months, to try out the vendor.

ASA will remain as ATL's operations group, they hosted the entire Comair Mgt team a month or so ago. SB said they came down with the presumtion that they could show ASA Mgt. how things could be done better. He said they left very "humble" and "Amazed" at the "Challenges" the ASA is dealing with in terms of logistics.

7 million investment in Concourse C, financed by the city, paid back in higher rent.

I will close with this: Skip and his people are very intouch with the rumors that we all read on here and hear in the crew lounge, how he knows I have no idea, but he eluded to or talked directly about almost everything I have seen or heard. My guess is he is such an approachable guy that he gets asked by many people all of these questions, all the time.

Time will tell.

Medeco

 

[wms]

I read your post with interest and wonder how you come to some of your conclusions.

I agree with you about SB. Bryan LaBreque seems to be in touch, and is making realistic improvements. He has stepped up to the plate and said the pilots are not solely responsible for our problems. Drew also seems to be on the ball. I think that just about everyone else in the GO and the MEC is out to protect their jobs.

As we agree, you can only wait and see what else happens. ACARS has been " in progress" since 2000. The financial situation had slowed it down, and it's good to hear that they're ready to make the leap.

Concerning the other issues, it all depends on who you listen to. Outside of SB, the info that comes from so-called reliable sources is no more accurate than what we read on this board. It doesn't matter if it's the CPO, training, or a ramper, it's that person's twist on the situation. In May someone from training said that in an IP meeting a mgmt person said "if we liked what we did in DFW, we'll love what we do at our new base." The last info on my ASA is no new bases. It's just each person applying their wishful thinking to the situation.

The bottom line is DAL should develop the business plan that will work the best and apply it. And we all have our own opinion about what that should be. The reality is all we can do is wait and see what happens.

One thing for sure is the MEC's and mgmts aren't going to be excited about a plan that reduces the number of those positions. Any plan will probably be developed at the top, maybe as a result of the negotiations between DAL and DALPA.

 

[N2264J]

Re: PID II?

If there ever is a solution that involves seniority integration/one list, it will have to first include protection for all sides BEFORE it is comitted to.

This is the only thing you got right in the whole tirade. ALPA merger policy addresses no windfalls and protecting the rights of all flight deck crewmembers. Even a blind squirrel steps on an acorn once in a while.

To say that you are seriously misinformed is an understatement. Your preception of current events and Comair/Delta history lends credence to those firebrands who are too quick to label kids like you "FNGs." Enthusiasm like yours is at least partly responsible for the mess the Eagle, Alleghaney, PSA, and Piedmont pilots find themselves in today. Fortunately for you, some people at Comair and ASA are hesitant to blindly trust and not too anxious to give away the farm for promises of unity years from now.

But feel free to set me straight. How long have you been an airline pilot? A union member? I'd be willing to bet that Dan Ford has been a loyal union volunteer longer than you've been an airline pilot.

 

[asarjfo]

Re: Re: PID II?

This is the only thing you got right in the whole tirade. ALPA merger policy addresses no windfalls and protecting the rights of all flight deck crewmembers. Even a blind squirrel steps on an acorn once in a while.

To say that you are seriously misinformed is an understatement. Your preception of current events and Comair/Delta history lends credence to those firebrands who are too quick to label kids like you "FNGs." Enthusiasm like yours is at least partly responsible for the mess the Eagle, Alleghaney, PSA, and Piedmont pilots find themselves in today. Fortunately for you, some people at Comair and ASA are hesitant to blindly trust and not too anxious to give away the farm for promises of unity years from now.

But feel free to set me straight. How long have you been an airline pilot? A union member? I'd be willing to bet that Dan Ford has been a loyal union volunteer longer than you've been an airline pilot.

Yea, new guys don't know anything about anything.....That is a great argument!! I don't think he was trying to "give away the farm" as you put it, merely trying to look for an alternative to what the CRUSTY OLD GUYS have come up with. Face it, somebody screwed the pooch with the orginal PID and those same people are still around fanning the fire. Maybe its time for some fresh blood, but thats right......we are can't possibly find our a$$ from a hole in the ground....there is no way we could better than you!

 

[N2264J]

Re: PID II?

Yea, new guys don't know anything about anything.....That is a great argument!!

P38JLightning's post speaks for itself to anyone familiar with the circumstanses. By the way, he's way off the mark.

But let's get down to fundamentals:

From the start, there have been two stated objectives of the RJ Defense Coalition.

Name one of them.

No help from your neighbors please.

 

[asarjfo]

Re: Re: PID II?

P38JLightning's post speaks for itself to anyone familiar with the circumstanses. By the way, he's way off the mark.

But let's get down to fundamentals:

From the start, there have been two stated objectives of the RJ Defense Coalition.

Name one of them.

No help from your neighbors please.

I could honestly give a rats A$$ what the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** RJDC wants. I am sick and tired of reading about them. Maybe if you guys were not so condencending towards anybody that was not 100% with you there may be a little more support. The fact that you hijack every thread on this board and the ALPA board (I am pretty sure I know who you are) is getting just a bit more than old.

But wait, before you say it let me beat you to your next response...."It may be getting old to you but the RJDC is only here for your protection and we know all and see all. If you could only see the light and come over to the dark side we could be so powerful luke...."

Never mind the last part of that is from some other crazy guy who wears a black uniform to work!

Answer one question without rambling on......

What is keeping DCI from signing on MESA as the next carrier? Could it have anything to do with Delta's current contract?!?!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: Re: Re: PID II?

Answer one question without rambling on......

What is keeping DCI from signing on MESA as the next carrier? Could it have anything to do with Delta's current contract?!?!

You got me there. Mesa is on the list for the request for proposal from Delta Connection according to ASA Mgmt in the State of the Co meetings.

I am sure you are referring to the 70 seat limitation and the fact Mesa just announced their operation of the CRJ900 for America West. I'm not sure what Delta's work around is, but if mainline scope stops Mesa from bidding it is just an unintended consequence of predatory bargaining that happened to help us out quite by accident.

Like someone else mentioned, even a blind squirrel trips across a nut every now and then. If the Delta MEC keeps Mesa out of DCI, I'll be glad for it.

Mesa is a predator in their own right. If they could prove they lost the DCI deal due to mainline scope, they might challenge the airframe limit on anti - trust grounds. This is a loophole no one has challenged yet and it would be a pretty straightforward case.

~~~^~~~

 

[Palerider957]

I keep hearing that CMR is going to be the sole recipient of the DO 328 jets from ACA. Does anyone know what is happening with these planes? Someone earlier said that SB stated ASA won't get any of these.

I know that these aircraft are not the favorite of people on this board, but I'd personally love to see some of them at ASA---growth is good.

The idea of Mesa becoming a DCI carrier is pretty frighenting, more kids flying for $15/hr right under our nose. I can see it now, a 24 year old Mesa Captain with a walk-man in his ear (limp bizkit CD) "Dude, growth is good at any cost."

God help us.......

 

[Heavy Set]

This is a classic squeeze play, and unfortunately you will have to bid for the planes or possibly lose growth. It started with Skywest giving up 70 seater pay (or up to 99 seats), and it looks like they may actually be given a paycut. (I thought they were going to renegotiate in 18 months?? Right.) I have asked my friends at Delta and they have said that they hope that Mesa is not the next DCI carrier, but that it wouldn't surprise them if they were. Strange times indeed.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Re: Re: Re: PID II?

Mesa is a predator in their own right. If they could prove they lost the DCI deal due to mainline scope, they might challenge the airframe limit on anti - trust grounds. This is a loophole no one has challenged yet and it would be a pretty straightforward case.

~~~^~~~

Just like the RJDC case, you know, the one with only one of the ten counts left.


--a concerned regional pilot

 

[asarjfo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: PID II?

You got me there. Mesa is on the list for the request for proposal from Delta Connection according to ASA Mgmt in the State of the Co meetings.

I am sure you are referring to the 70 seat limitation and the fact Mesa just announced their operation of the CRJ900 for America West. I'm not sure what Delta's work around is, but if mainline scope stops Mesa from bidding it is just an unintended consequence of predatory bargaining that happened to help us out quite by accident.

Like someone else mentioned, even a blind squirrel trips across a nut every now and then. If the Delta MEC keeps Mesa out of DCI, I'll be glad for it.

Mesa is a predator in their own right. If they could prove they lost the DCI deal due to mainline scope, they might challenge the airframe limit on anti - trust grounds. This is a loophole no one has challenged yet and it would be a pretty straightforward case.

~~~^~~~

Good attitude to have, I can't imagine why the Delta pilots have a problem with the RJDC. Even when their contract does benefit our pilot group, you throw it back in their face and say they were just lucky.

 

[P38JLightning]

PID II?

64J,

Wow I write a full page (or more) post and you "refute" it by simply saying it isn't true. Therefore I'm wrong. Ergo you're right. Dang, that was easy.

Okay I'll go slow and one point at a time if that helps.

1. FACT: At the PID meetings in 2000 the future RJDC officers advised Comair pilots with Delta class dates (or those trying to go to Delta) that they would probably be better off staying at Comair because typically in a merger you get something between a staple and DOH.

You can attempt to refute that if you want to, but I was there and heard it numerous times as well as saw it in writing.

This is why the RJDC is so strongly against making a fair proposal (and why many think the Comair MEC won't either). To do so would take away any chance of a windfall. Face it, even though ALPA policy says no windfall at the expense of another, you can never be sure of what some arbitrator would decide if it came down to that. And it probably would, since the RJDC side would NEVER agree to a staple with no TK+ seniority. Don't believe me? Convince them to make the proposal. Not in a billion years.

So while all this "its not the destination, its the journey" Zen philosophy crap might fly in high school debate class, in the real world it falls far short. If you were a Delta pilot would you EVER commit to the process first, with everything on the line to lose, and THEN worry about the details, after you reached the point of no return? Not likely.

So why should ALPA do that? Let me guess, because its the "right thing to do?" How about us first agreeing to these "no windfalls" that you yourself are so sure wouldn't happen anyway? Its really hard to immagine anyone objecting to that who doesn't have some kind of seniority grabbing agenda.

And those protections should go both ways. What if you got your wish, and this magical merger process started, and the outcome was the bottom 500 pilots at Comair and ASA were put on the street immediately, as well as hundreds of Comair and ASA downgrades and lineholders to reserve (you know, the cost of each of those has already been computed by the RJDC) would you be okay with that? Possibly, but what if it were you who were affected like that?

Of course, using the RJDC's own logic, it is barking up the wrong tree. You see, ALL flow-throughs are bad because of the Eagle and CoEx flow throughs are bad, and ALL "connection" mergers are bad because the Eagle one didn't work out, ERGO all mergers are bad because the PanAM and TWA mergers didn't turn out well for many.

But seriously, address point number 1. and we'll take it from there.

 

[asarjfo]

Re: PID II?

64J,

Wow I write a full page (or more) post and you "refute" it by simply saying it isn't true. Therefore I'm wrong. Ergo you're right. Dang, that was easy.

Okay I'll go slow and one point at a time if that helps.

1. FACT: At the PID meetings in 2000 the future RJDC officers advised Comair pilots with Delta class dates (or those trying to go to Delta) that they would probably be better off staying at Comair because typically in a merger you get something between a staple and DOH.

You can attempt to refute that if you want to, but I was there and heard it numerous times as well as saw it in writing.

This is why the RJDC is so strongly against making a fair proposal (and why many think the Comair MEC won't either). To do so would take away any chance of a windfall. Face it, even though ALPA policy says no windfall at the expense of another, you can never be sure of what some arbitrator would decide if it came down to that. And it probably would, since the RJDC side would NEVER agree to a staple with no TK+ seniority. Don't believe me? Convince them to make the proposal. Not in a billion years.

So while all this "its not the destination, its the journey" Zen philosophy crap might fly in high school debate class, in the real world it falls far short. If you were a Delta pilot would you EVER commit to the process first, with everything on the line to lose, and THEN worry about the details, after you reached the point of no return? Not likely.

So why should ALPA do that? Let me guess, because its the "right thing to do?" How about us first agreeing to these "no windfalls" that you yourself are so sure wouldn't happen anyway? Its really hard to immagine anyone objecting to that who doesn't have some kind of seniority grabbing agenda.

And those protections should go both ways. What if you got your wish, and this magical merger process started, and the outcome was the bottom 500 pilots at Comair and ASA were put on the street immediately, as well as hundreds of Comair and ASA downgrades and lineholders to reserve (you know, the cost of each of those has already been computed by the RJDC) would you be okay with that? Possibly, but what if it were you who were affected like that?

Of course, using the RJDC's own logic, it is barking up the wrong tree. You see, ALL flow-throughs are bad because of the Eagle and CoEx flow throughs are bad, and ALL "connection" mergers are bad because the Eagle one didn't work out, ERGO all mergers are bad because the PanAM and TWA mergers didn't turn out well for many.

But seriously, address point number 1. and we'll take it from there.

Now you know when you throw logic into the mix the RJDC will never answer your questions directly.......

 

[N2264J]

Re: PID II?

I could honestly give a rats A$$ what the *CENSORED* RJDC wants.

Sorry, your time is up.

scopeCMRandASA or P38JLightning?

From the start, the RJDC has had two stated objectives.

Name one of them.

 

[N2264J]

Re: PID II?

64J,

1. FACT: At the PID meetings in 2000 the future RJDC officers advised Comair pilots with Delta class dates (or those trying to go to Delta) that they would probably be better off staying at Comair because typically in a merger you get something between a staple and DOH.

You can attempt to refute that if you want to, but I was there and heard it numerous times as well as saw it in writing.

The RJDC did not exist in July of 2000 when the PID was filed. The RJDC is not responsible for what every pilot at Comair says but I can tell you for sure that the RJDC or the Comair/ASA MECs didn't put anything like that in writing, ever. If you can produce it, feel free to set me straight.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Re: Re: PID II?

The RJDC did not exist in July of 2000 when the PID was filed. The RJDC is not responsible for what every pilot at Comair says but I can tell you for sure that the RJDC didn't put anything like that in writing, ever. If you can produce it, feel free to set me straight.

Your laughable. Keep at it guys. They are getting frustrated. Maybe when this BS group goes down, we can make some real progress with the bodies who are able to.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[asarjfo]

Re: Re: PID II?

Sorry, your time is up.

scopeCMRandASA or P38JLightning?

From the start, the RJDC has had two stated objectives.

Name one of them.

No, I am afraid your (and the RJDC) time is up. Enjoy the ride while it lasts because you guys wont be around a whole lot longer.