APA Pilots Reject TA

[ultrarunner]

Fixed it.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Heretic

 

[ultrarunner]

Ha!

Darn good voter turn-out too, as would be expected....

 

[AA717driver]

APA President Dave Bates resigned today.

Here's your sword. Let gravity do it's job.

Bates did a great job blindsiding AMR with the USAir deal. He doomed himself by becoming myopic, focusing solely on the USAir deal and advocating taking a crappy TA while the merger is by no means a certainty.

TC

 

[XJTAv8r]

Here's the original thread, mysteriously banished to the GA forum: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=150087

 

[goahead]

Since this thread isn't closed yet, Mods why did you delete the orginal thread???????? Very unprofessional, especially not answering the paying members questions about the closure.

 

[caseyd]

APA President Dave Bates resigned today.

Here's your sword. Let gravity do it's job.

Bates did a great job blindsiding AMR with the USAir deal. He doomed himself by becoming myopic, focusing solely on the USAir deal and advocating taking a crappy TA while the merger is by no means a certainty.

TC

You may be correct about Bates blindsiding AMR. And you may be correct about Bates' myopia. But only time will tell if AA pilots have made a wise choice. If the experience of bride-in-waiting USAirways provides any enlightenment there is cause for concern. At LCC the union leadership, led by 4 of the 12 who controlled direction by use of the roll call vote, repeatedly denied the membership an opportunity to accept a less painful LOA93. This was driven largely by a belief held by the 4 that somehow a BK judge would be kinder, or fair or reasonable. All flawed because BK judges don't do any of that. They preserve the business and it's ability to repaid its POR agreed debt. Period. LCC pilots ultimately agreed to a more painful agreement at the 11th hour when somehow the realities of the choice became clear to the 4. It didnt have to be as painful as it is. I wonder if AA pilots have fallen for a similarly flawed line of reason. They appear to have poked the animal in the cage and come one step closer to the day a BK judge lets it loose. A lawyer friend of mine once said in response to a question about what would happen next by saying "we really dont know and I can't tell you but I can tell you what others have done in similiar situations and how their choices worked out". Time will tell and I wish AA pilots the best.

 

[Dan Roman]

t. They preserve the business and it's ability to repaid its POR agreed debt. Period. .

Which is why the AA pilots have to remain steadfast in making it clear that trying to compensate their pilots in the way the TA proposed would be bad for their business. The industry in now healthy enough that all the legacies can continue in the direction that started with SWA and DAL's (and I am assuming UAL will follow) most recent contract.

 

[Citjok]

IF you think the TA was concecionary, what might come down the road for APA can be a nightmare (s.1113). Hope not. I have good friends at AA.

 

[Citjok]

IF you think the TA was concecionary, what might come down the road for APA can be a nightmare (s.1113). Hope not. I have good friends at AA.

BTW no union has gone through s.1113 before. So, this is totally untested territory. Good luck.

 

[caseyd]

Which is why the AA pilots have to remain steadfast in making it clear that trying to compensate their pilots in the way the TA proposed would be bad for their business. The industry in now healthy enough that all the legacies can continue in the direction that started with SWA and DAL's (and I am assuming UAL will follow) most recent contract.

Respectfully....I think you may be accepting the same flawed logic I suggested is dangerous in my post. That is, the courts usually (read 99% of the time) hear the arguments of the debtor with a receptive ear. Courts dismiss the claim by pilots that, as an example, a reorganized airline paying 150.00/hour and 30 days vacation yields a carrier less able to repay its debts than one paying 215.00/hour and 40 days vacation. At the risk of repeating myself....courts don't care about fair. They won't care about DAL or UAL pilots W-2. And they don't care about how angry pilots are. I hope I'm wrong and that in the AA bankruptcy the courts will treat labor differently than they have 99% of the time but if I had $5 to bet on it I'd buy a powerball ticket instead.

 

[caseyd]

BTW no union has gone through s.1113 before. So, this is totally untested territory. Good luck.

Maybe no pilot group has but plenty of unions have felt the backhand of the courts against their tender cheek. Pilots have typically cut a deal before the 1113 petition is heard.....better a devil you know.

 

[ultrarunner]

I don't think it's necessarily fair to make the statement that the AA pilots think a better deal can be had in BK. they may or may not think that.

I think their vote does send a clear message to AA that they don't want to get poked up the poop-shoot by the company any more.

It's refreshing to see what can happen when you don't have a "national" office influencing voting....

And don't give me that ALPA rehetoric crapola on "my ALPA MEC speaks for me".


Respect APA, respect!

 

[boomlrd]

APA President Dave Bates resigned today.

Here's your sword. Let gravity do it's job.

Bates did a great job blindsiding AMR with the USAir deal. He doomed himself by becoming myopic, focusing solely on the USAir deal and advocating taking a crappy TA while the merger is by no means a certainty.

TC

Same as AT did before being purchased by SWA.

 

[caseyd]

I don't think it's necessarily fair to make the statement that the AA pilots think a better deal can be had in BK. they may or may not think that.

I think their vote does send a clear message to AA that they don't want to get poked up the poop-shoot by the company any more.

It's refreshing to see what can happen when you don't have a "national" office influencing voting....

And don't give me that ALPA rehetoric crapola on "my ALPA MEC speaks for me".


Respect APA, respect!

If AA pilots don't think there is a better deal then maybe someone can explain their vote cause I don't understand.

If you think the BK court won't grant AA's request to poke the pilots up the poop-shoot well it's probably best to stand-by and watch. I hope you're right but...

I don't know what you're talking about regarding ALPA. In any event, ALPA is irrelevant here. Though it appears they have delivered a couple high quality contracts, at least compared to the independants. But it's still irrelevant. This is an APA battle.

Anger is not a strategy.

 

[xjhawk]

yeah my MEC told half truths, lied with statistics, and made assurances that had no definitive proof that our merger would be better for all involved. "Yeah I know you are not getting anything in this TA, but in the seniority list integration and future growth you will be a lot better off". In the end, only our most senior faired well and many of us had pilots from the other ALPA carriers with half our longevity become senior to us. Now their airlines are losing all their aircraft and have my seniority. I am sure glad ALPA helped me out on my career.

 

[caseyd]

yeah my MEC told half truths, lied with statistics, and made assurances that had no definitive proof that our merger would be better for all involved. "Yeah I know you are not getting anything in this TA, but in the seniority list integration and future growth you will be a lot better off". In the end, only our most senior faired well and many of us had pilots from the other ALPA carriers with half our longevity become senior to us. Now their airlines are losing all their aircraft and have my seniority. I am sure glad ALPA helped me out on my career.

You can't start a rant with "my mec..." and finish with a slap at ALPA. Because "my mec" are pilots you a) elected or b) tolerate. ALPA is a democracy (just like APA, SWAPA and USAPA for that matter.) if you were asleep at the switch during elections or just swooned at the simple solutions and rhetoric of the winners then ranting about "ALPA" is disingenuous
.

 

[ultrarunner]

If AA pilots don't think there is a better deal then maybe someone can explain their vote cause I don't understand.

If you think the BK court won't grant AA's request to poke the pilots up the poop-shoot well it's probably best to stand-by and watch. I hope you're right but...

I don't know what you're talking about regarding ALPA.

The BK judge might just do that...

Re: my ALPA comment, if it HAD been an ALPA group, the TA would likely have passed, as ALPA typically votes in concessionary contracts on the first try....

 

[ultrarunner]

You can't start a rant with "my mec..." and finish with a slap at ALPA. Because "my mec" are pilots you a) elected or b) tolerate. ALPA is a democracy (just like APA, SWAPA and USAPA for that matter.) if you were asleep at the switch during elections or just swooned at the simple solutions and rhetoric of the winners then ranting about "ALPA" is disingenuous
.

What I meant Casey is IMHO, the "my mec chant" when used with ALPA is BS.

Alpa Mec's do what they are told my national, as much as an ALPA pilot doesn'twant to believe that, again, IMHO.

And in the case of this thread, it's why I believe the TA was rejected....no big-daddy stroking the troops.

 

[Whine Lover]

Good on you pilots of American Airlines.

To my knowledge, you are the FIRST pilot group in history to be placed in this position ( 1113c scenario ) who have not caved.

Go for it and Godspeed.


YKMKR

 

[caseyd]

What I meant Casey is IMHO, the "my mec chant" when used with ALPA is BS.

Alpa Mec's do what they are told my national, as much as an ALPA pilot doesn'twant to believe that, again, IMHO.

And in the case of this thread, it's why I believe the TA was rejected....no big-daddy stroking the troops.

Ultra,
You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone. In a crew room full of them I cherish the "informed" opinion. And I don't mean to suggest yours is not but I've been there. Got the tee shirt. Sport the scars and on and on. ALPA advisors excused themselves from end game negotiation at LCC because their advice had been ignored for the year leading up to LOA93. ALPA professional services unit which had rendered services to APA excused themselves months ago for the same reason. That is, if you're gonna totally ignore the rational advice of lawyers, bankers and negotiators who have been here before what's the point? The danger, more often then not is "my MEC" members just believe they know better. And often, not always, their members suffer.

Wishing AA pilots the best...

 

[Dizel8]

Maybe no pilot group has but plenty of unions have felt the backhand of the courts against their tender cheek. Pilots have typically cut a deal before the 1113 petition is heard.....better a devil you know.

Agreeing to allow a robber to take your wallet makes you feel less victimized?

The APA pilots stood tall and said "NO", even if they get screwed in the courts, they did absolutely awesome in my view and they most certainly deserve our respect!

 

[caseyd]

Agreeing to allow a robber to take your wallet makes you feel less victimized?

The APA pilots stood tall and said "NO", even if they get screwed in the courts, they did absolutely awesome in my view and they most certainly deserve our respect!

Dizel,

This thread has turned on the wisdom of AA pilots choice, not their courage. Not their unity, not their righteousness but the wisdom of it all. These choices are ALWAYS hard. If threatened by a robber with a gun who wanted wallet, watch and wife I would be thrilled to negotiate the security of one or more. No comment as to priorities ;-). That for each man to decide. Negotiating a better deal does not make you a sissy. It makes you smart. Just taking the wooping is stupid.

 

[Whine Lover]

Beat a Man long enough, he loses hope.

Beat him longer, he get's angry.

Beat him again, he doesn't care anymore and throws caution to the Wind.

Try to beat him ONE MORE TIME, he tears your heart out, kills your Family with his bare hands, and burns down the Village... saving himself and his loved ones.

GOOD LUCK Airline Management from hereon in....Precedent has been set.


" Mine eyes have seen the Glory of The Coming of The Lord...."

Burn...Burn, Baby, BURN.




LOVE,



YKW

 

[OurMoney1]

There will be blood my friends.
There will be blood.
Stand-bye.....

 

[St. Nic]

ALPO never would have done this or allowed this. Independent unions are the future. ALPO isn't going to be around much longer. Good job APA

 

[aeolian]

ALPO never would have done this or allowed this. Independent unions are the future. ALPO isn't going to be around much longer. Good job APA

Classic emotional response identified earlier as dangerous. I suspect St. Nic is gonna be choking on Nic. And it will be fun to watch.

Gold Standard... You guys are hilarious.

 

[Fliteidol]

Whats going on around here??????? I guess this one will be closed soon too!

 

[PCL_128]

BTW no union has gone through s.1113 before. So, this is totally untested territory. Good luck.

Wrong. There is case law on this. Read up on the Northwest flight attendants case. Rulings were made on virtually every important area that had previously been untested.

 

[aa73]

Wrong. There is case law on this. Read up on the Northwest flight attendants case. Rulings were made on virtually every important area that had previously been untested.

The F/A group is no major airline pilot group. They don't control the throttles, the on time performance, maintenance issues, etc. And the judge knows that. Two totally different scenarios, and I don't expect the judge to follow that mold.

To those of you who don't understand why we voted No, here is a quick summary: The Pilots of AA have chosen to not give in to a concessionary contract. If it is forced on us, at least we will die standing on our feet rather than stay living on our knees.

Thanks for all the support.