Anyone has training contract and what type!

[RedBehren]

Ace,

You forgot that full service is transferable to any pilot, any operator should know this cost happens every 6 months. There is also an obligation to the employer to uphold working conditions and pay, sometime that just does not happen.

Recurrent training is a cost of doing busuness just like engine overhaul. You must have a good deal with 9999 hrs. and only two types.

Mobie

Ah, the oft-heard "cost of doing business" approach. Well, if you use the engine analogy, then I would ask the question; is the cost of the overhaul for the flying youve DONE or the flying youre going to DO?

My point is that the recurrent training buys someone 6 months (under 135) and six months ONLY of captain currency. So, the company sponsored training is an INVESTMENT on their part. Our bosses think that this investment should earn a 6 month return. Seems fair.

 

[h25b]

Ah, the oft-heard "cost of doing business" approach. Well, if you use the engine analogy, then I would ask the question; is the cost of the overhaul for the flying youve DONE or the flying youre going to DO?

My point is that the recurrent training buys someone 6 months (under 135) and six months ONLY of captain currency. So, the company sponsored training is an INVESTMENT on their part. Our bosses think that this investment should earn a 6 month return. Seems fair.

I respectfully call B.S.

First of all, coming back to an employee that is already in the door and forcing them to sign a training agreement as a condition of future employment is illegal provided this was not a term of original employment. In other words, if I hire someone having never mentioned a training agreement and then some months later when it's time for school again I can't say, "sign this or you're gone..."

Your example is really exactly that. If every time it was time to go to recurrent I had to sign a training agreement I am basically in servitude.

They are not investing in you, they are investing in the business by hiring, training, and hopefully retaining qualified pilots. Otherwise, perhaps you could tell me what Option #2 would be ? Not training to FAR 135 regulation and the whole operation being grounded ? I think not.

 

[RedBehren]

I respectfully call B.S.

First of all, coming back to an employee that is already in the door and forcing them to sign a training agreement as a condition of future employment is illegal provided this was not a term of original employment. In other words, if I hire someone having never mentioned a training agreement and then some months later when it's time for school again I can't say, "sign this or you're gone..."

quote]

Actually (at least in the state where I work), they CAN and DO. Its called "employment at will" and it essentially allows them fire us for something as simple as farting in the front lobby... (unless your farts don't stick, in which case they probably wouldn't fire you.) That doesnt make it RIGHT, however, which appears to be the basis for our ongoing discussion.

It really boils down to whether we can all agree to the concept that a company has the right to an "ROI" (return on investment). Once we agree that this, in fact, is fair and legal, then we need to agree whether recurrent training (since we all seem to agree that initial is fair game for a TC) can constitute an "investment". Remember, many, many companies in other industries require employees to commit to a certain time frame after theyve been trained; its called an "employment contract" and these training contracts are the same thing.

At the end of the day, what self-respecting employee would even GO to recurrent training and then gig their company with the bill by leaving a month later? If in your heart of hearts THAT sounds like a s-itty thing to do, then I would argue that we all actually agree - the recurrent training course is an investment, not an expense, and therefore has an "expected usefullness" of 6 months, at which time, the return from the investment has been earned.

The defense rests, Your Honor.

 

[h25b]

At the end of the day, what self-respecting employee would even GO to recurrent training and then gig their company with the bill by leaving a month later? If in your heart of hearts THAT sounds like a s-itty thing to do, then I would argue that we all actually agree - the recurrent training course is an investment, not an expense, and therefore has an "expected usefullness" of 6 months, at which time, the return from the investment has been earned.

The defense rests, Your Honor.

Reasonable minds will disagree on the rest, but I agree with the above in certain instances.

I am speaking in terms of an already proven employee who has not been operating under any sort of training contract and then all of a sudden have it forced upon them.

So counselor I will conclude by saying that the initial costs incurred making the employee eligible to fly legally on the ops. certificate could be considered an investment in the employee. But I will stand by my point that recurrent training required to maintain that same employee's status should be considered an investment in the company and its business objectives (i.e. keeping the aircraft flying and generating revenue).

 

[RedBehren]

Reasonable minds will disagree on the rest, but I agree with the above in certain instances.

I am speaking in terms of an already proven employee who has not been operating under any sort of training contract and then all of a sudden have it forced upon them.

So counselor I will conclude by saying that the initial costs incurred making the employee eligible to fly legally on the ops. certificate could be considered an investment in the employee. But I will stand by my point that recurrent training required to maintain that same employee's status should be considered an investment in the company and its business objectives (i.e. keeping the aircraft flying and generating revenue).

Fair 'nuff...

Although, I would be willing to bet that if we lined up people on this issue, the (reasonable) people that have a stake in profit sharing for a given company would agree with the side I'VE been arguing, and the other (also reasonable) people who simply cash a check every two weeks would be on the other side of the fence. Its all relative in this life, my dear friends...

No "wrongs" or "rights" here neccesarily... and for the record, I've just been pontificating all the garbage BS that our cxompany threw back at us when we bitched after they were making us sign these GD contacts!

Regretfully, I have to sign off from this thread... Another day, another trip -10 days bee-bopping around the resort towns of mexico for one of the owners. I'll be thinking of our meaningful dialogue whilst drinking a Modelo and dipping my toes in the warm waters of the blue pacific. aaahhh.... I can't believe they pay me for this.

 

[G100driver]

Ace:

Well thought out though poorly reasoned response. Must have been that Viagra giving you a headache.

Now I was happy being a little Astra guy (but the airplane was and still is a pile of poo). I was making industry wage working for a great guy and was not looking for employement. My boss is very sucessful and gets a nice new shinny jet. Do I suddenly become unemployed because I have never flown one? I think not. I was a good employee then and still am now. Of course he was going to train me. I have always done the right thing by more employer as he has always done the right thing by me. He in turn pays me. Is it as much as a long-haul driver? No, but it is FAIR and I know that raises are in the future(promises fulfiled I might add).

Now as far as over 30 making $200K a year flying international long haul, well I am just perfectly fine making my industry standard wage with a mostly domestic schedule. I am glad to see that you can still stay awake long enough to make a flight across the Atlantic after the last Matlock re-run is over on A&E.

As far as the contracts go, we will agree to dis-agree. No one who works for me has ever signed a contract. We pay an industry wage (which is better than most given our region of the country) and myself and co-workers are hard pressed to find a much better gig in the local area. If someone really wants to move to make more money, well I guess that is their problem. But there in lies the key to finding good people.

The only folks in the local area using training contracts for recurrents are the scumbag outfits. The only ones blessed by aviation these outfits are the senior non-flying management who spend most of their day trying to figure out how to draw blood from turnips (aka pilots and mechanics). Lord knows that they cannot charge what it truly costs to produce the product.

Anyhow, we shall continue to disagree.

 

[G100driver]

BTW, do IBM, Nike, B of A and the other sought after companies on this board require contracts for recurrent? I think not.

 

[Stealthh21]

That's true...however....these companies that want to train (type) a pilot and then expect them to be paid far below industry standard do it to themselves.

So don't work for that company.

 

[HawkerF/O]

As for Mobie, he's actually wrong. A full service contract at FSI is only transferable for the unused event and only under specific criteria.
Ace

Ace, you are flat wrong. You speak of the FSI full service contract as having 1 or 2 events or it is limiting in some way. That is not the case at all; are you famailar with what exactly a FSI full service sontract is? An initial full service has a initial/type, unlimited recurrents for 2 aircraft. A Full service recurrent has unlimited amounts of recurrents for 2 aircraft, and that is used when the person has already been to an initial on the aircraft (in most cases)

The FSI full service recurrent contract has NO limits on the # of recurrent events that 1 attends AND it can be paid in quarters, bi-annualy, anually, etc. If a pilot leaves or the department closes, FSI will refund the unused portion based upon what has been used if that is what the comapny wants. A guy leaving a company the day he gets home from a recurrent then the company hires a guy already typed and sends him to recurrent will take over the previously purchased contract and the company would incur no additional expense from FSI.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Ace, you are flat wrong. You speak of the FSI full service contract as having 1 or 2 events or it is limiting in some way. That is not the case at all; are you famailar with what exactly a FSI full service sontract is? An initial full service has a initial/type, unlimited recurrents for 2 aircraft. A Full service recurrent has unlimited amounts of recurrents for 2 aircraft, and that is used when the person has already been to an initial on the aircraft (in most cases)

The FSI full service recurrent contract has NO limits on the # of recurrent events that 1 attends AND it can be paid in quarters, bi-annualy, anually, etc. If a pilot leaves or the department closes, FSI will refund the unused portion based upon what has been used if that is what the comapny wants. A guy leaving a company the day he gets home from a recurrent then the company hires a guy already typed and sends him to recurrent will take over the previously purchased contract and the company would incur no additional expense from FSI.

Might want to check your facts, bucko.

That used to be the case and is not anymore, you get a maximum of 2 events during a 12 month period. In the old days, you could schedule as many as you wanted, then they made it so you could only schedule 2 events, but could train as much as you wanted but only last minute and pending their schedule. Now they only alow 2 training events.

Make a call and check your facts, then you can get back to me.

Ace