Anyone has training contract and what type!

[KeroseneSnorter]

The way I look at it, all your pilots were brought on before this crap came out.

None of you should sign. If they want to fire the whole company at once then fine. Let them find some other idiots to sign that thing. (I know it will not be me)

Also, if they try to let everybody go one at a time until they get newbies trained, all should resign at once.

Five years is insane unless they are paying 6 figures. Back in good times, 5 years could take you from a CFI all the the way to a Major if you busted your butt and hit the upgrade cycles right. Even now it is a long time in your aviation career if your aspirations are for bigger and better things.

 

[400A]

Wrong Act700

You could not be further from the truth!! When properly written, a training contract will and has held up in court. Do your homework. Employment contracts are not enforceable in many states that are "Right to Work States" but a training reembursement contract is very enforceable, to and including garnishment of wages up to 30% according to our attorney.

As far as people only leaving due to working conditions, YOU ARE SO STEREO TYPING!! We pay NBAA wages, our oldest aircraft is a 2000 model with 600 hours, only maintained by the factory. Our crews are also Flight Safety trained and I Type every pilot. We do part 135, and we have scheduled days off. If you have worked for all of the "scumbag" operations, then YOU are not doing YOUR home work. Talk to current or past employees. I am currently inviting all of our job candidates to talk to present and past employees.

We do not OWE you 15,000 in training just for your bad attitude just to grace us with you presence and then leave to months later.

I wonder how you would do it if the training fee was comming our of your pocket. I bet you would suddenly be in favor of these contracts.

 

[ACT700]

400A,

your outfit is one of a very few, the way you make it sound.

Keep in mind that not all outfits maintain their a/c through the manufacturer.

Also, the scumbag outfit reference: I do not say that everywhere I have worked the conditions were horrible, but some places you just wonder how they can get away with the stuff they do.
Also, a lot of friends in this business share their stories with me, and it all comes down to one thing: There are upstanding companies, and there are the "other" companies.

 

[400A]

Act700

I agree 100%, you just made is sound as if any operation that had you sign a contract qualified as "Scumbag".

I have heard the stories as well, many coming from a few night freighters, and many from a certian fractional. It is scary, you just have to do your homework going in. Some contract are worth signing.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

All these training contracts are crap. They don't hold up in court. That's the cost of doing business; and if a company types you and then you leave, they must not have had to good working conditions to begin with.

Wow are you wrong! I have many friends (including myself) who have signed training contracts, and we all make WELL over 6 figures. People leave good companies. I don't know what you're smoking. One guy I know left because his wife wanted to move back to the east coast. He TRIED to ditch out on the contract. The company tried to offer him a settlement but he just said he wouldn't pay. It went all the way to court and he LOST. These cases are public and available to anyone. Do your homework before some poor sap coming up the ranks listens to your rant and actually tries it. Reality check: 1. our employers have the right to protect themselves from investing thousands of dollars on pilots who might not stay around for SEVERAL reasons. 2. If you get a better job offer, ask the new employer to pay off your debt, loan you the money, or, if the job is that great, pony-up! I would (and I think I'm about to).

Ace

 

[pilot1704]

Well, I think it all depends about contract!

I don't think any of you can say that 5 years is fair.

1-2 is fair in my opinion and after that you should be free to go!

But 5 years is long time and you have make that money to company many times!

Since people are talking about training contracts , what kind of times you guys have! 1, 2, 3 years or what and how much you have to pay if you leave before!

 

[ACT700]

400A,

I agree with you 100%-some contracts are worth signing. And yes, do your homework, that's important too.

I think it all cames down to something like this: if the employer takes good care of you, you take care of him/her/them; and if it was a contract worth signing, then, it might be worthpaying off.

But 5 years, that sounds ridiculous; one to two years should be enough.

Oh, and don't forget with what status you join up. I mean, are you a rookie getting typed in a jet, or are you current and qualified?!

 

[southFL]

Slight variation in question

Just wondering your opinion.

Part 135 outfit, southeast US that I currently work for, is willing to train on their GIII provided you sign a 2 year contract. This includes GIII initial type, GIII recurrent, Learjet recurrent (twice) pro-rated out over two years. Of course, if I quit before the recurrents a year later-- I am responsible for 1/2 of the GIII initial and the one learjet recurrent. (There isn't more sims because we do a 297 in the lear in between the gIII schools.) I most assuredly would be the sic in the giii.

I want to get into a gulfstream, but not at the expense of being a whore (best word to describe it I suppose).

I understand the whole interpretation "no-legal-basis" but my boss has been good to me and I would want to honor something I agree too. However, I don't want to get involved if it would mean the aforementioned[FONT=&quot][/FONT] result.

I know, I know. You are thinking, "My God, South Florida charter," but honestly what would you do? I want to fly part 91 eventually somwhere in the US and right now I am thinking this is a good way to accomplish that.

Thanks in advance.

 

[jagmagic]

I am in a 2 year contract with a 28k bond. I was typed in the hs125 and the citation. If a company pays that much money on you, you owe them the 1-2-3 year contract that you sign. And the worst thing to do is burn a bridge if u leave a company because you think the grass is greener and you leave in the middle of a contract then that bridge my friend is gone. That chance to get rehired if something happens at the new job is out the window. But i must say a 5 year contract is extreme

 

[jagmagic]

I also think it is crazy to have someone sign a new contract when they upgarde to captain. If you pay your dews then you should be reworded with no aditinal contract

 

[RedBehren]

The only reason companies are inclined to use these types of contracts is because of the high volume of DOUCHE bags that have bagged the rating and hit the road, leaving some business owner (who made the mistake of trusting the new-hire pilot) holding the bag.

It only takes one loser to do this and it immediately can cost the company $15-25k. If more than one guy does it, well, do the math... Its simply a preventative scare tactic measure, not a tool to keep fence-hoppers contained.

There are plenty of jobs in the real world (not this fantasy-land that we all work in) that require a commitment for company sponsored training. If you dont like the position being offered and are afraid to commit to it, then DON'T. Leave the job for someone who's willing to stick around awhile.

All of the other people that i fly with fully support our management's use of these agreements, as do I, because whats good for us is good for the company, and people breezing through to collect a rating and run ISN'T...

 

[G100driver]

New hire training contracts, fine. We do not live in LaLa land.

Recurrent, upgrade ect ..... No way.

The easy way to make people stay is to pay them and give them QOL. Holding a gun to someone's head is not acceptable. All it takes is one loser company out there doing and suddenly it becomes acceptable.

 

[RedBehren]

We all need to agree on one thing; this is an industry full of opportunists. Ive seen people leave companies who were the highest paid, least worked of the bunch. It has nothing to do with pay and quality of life. If you want quality of life, live in the bahamas and smoke weed all day. If you want to earn a living, find a company that has its employees interests in mind - regardless of pay level. A training contract - regardless of training type - could be looked at as an insurance policy for the entire employee group. Every time one of us leaves the company hanging, it hurts us just as much as them.

 

[mobie]

Training Contract

What about a company that puts one in place after the pilots have been there a year or more. 2 years after type(any type even replacement a/c) and 1 year after each rec. training, have to pay back the cost of training plus hotel, food and travel.

 

[G100driver]

We all need to agree on one thing; this is an industry full of opportunists. Ive seen people leave companies who were the highest paid, least worked of the bunch. It has nothing to do with pay and quality of life. If you want quality of life, live in the bahamas and smoke weed all day. If you want to earn a living, find a company that has its employees interests in mind - regardless of pay level. A training contract - regardless of training type - could be looked at as an insurance policy for the entire employee group. Every time one of us leaves the company hanging, it hurts us just as much as them.

Just curious, are playing devils advocate here or are you serious?

 

[RedBehren]

Just curious, are playing devils advocate here or are you serious?

A little bit of both, I guess. Just trying to inject some relativity to the dialogue. Certainly not trying to get anyone uptight about it...

Look, I've worked at some great places and some lousy places - Ive stayed at every one for at least 5 years and I spent 10 long years at a company that ultimately went out of business for financial reasons - it was the BEST of the bunch. I feel lucky to have found the job I have now with a young, growing company where I feel appreciated... and its NOT the highest paying job I've ever had - and i work a LOT more than I used to. Myself and the other fellows that work there have no issue with the management trying to protect their pocketbooks using the TC's because, as I said before, whats good for them is good for us - or at least at this place it is.

I can understand that for some people that may seem crazy, but I think if you dig deep, you'll agree that unless you have the balls to go start your OWN company, you're at the whim of those who have. Thats just the simple truth...

People's feet do the talking.

 

[G100driver]

Interesting post. You are right about the whole cahoona's thing.

However unless the leadership leads and provides vision people will use their feet. As far contracts to make people stay ... hardly fair. Yea, yea I know if you do like do not apply.

What is their end of the bargin? Sign this contract and you will get X raise? Do not sign it and kick you to the curb every year?

Like I said it take leadership and vision to run a sucessful company. Just ask Herb.

 

[justwatching]

I've been watching this thread from afar, and seems that the stereotypical approaches are abundant.

The main point that Behren makes that most don't think about, is that it is not a way to hold someone "hostage." It's a way to ensure some idiot doesn't roll through town with all the right things to say in an interview, "bag" the rating and split.

If someone is canned for being an idiot, I can't imagine the company trying to recoup the costs. I would also imagine that after the initial expense of the rating, so long as you perform professionally, you WILL get a raise. I haven't heard that you HAVE to take the rating either. If someone is afraid of the commitment to an employer for one year that is ready to drop 15-20k in a type (plus the expenses), then stay seat locked until you're over it. It's simply a trade off.

I don't have a problem with a pro-rated, reasonable term approach. There are no raises or types if the opportunists take advantage of my company.

I'd like the names of half the people in this thread to ensure that we don't hire them.

 

[G100driver]

I've been watching this thread from afar, and seems that the stereotypical approaches are abundant.

The main point that Behren makes that most don't think about, is that it is not a way to hold someone "hostage." It's a way to ensure some idiot doesn't roll through town with all the right things to say in an interview, "bag" the rating and split.

If someone is canned for being an idiot, I can't imagine the company trying to recoup the costs. I would also imagine that after the initial expense of the rating, so long as you perform professionally, you WILL get a raise. I haven't heard that you HAVE to take the rating either. If someone is afraid of the commitment to an employer for one year that is ready to drop 15-20k in a type (plus the expenses), then stay seat locked until you're over it. It's simply a trade off.

I don't have a problem with a pro-rated, reasonable term approach. There are no raises or types if the opportunists take advantage of my company.

I'd like the names of half the people in this thread to ensure that we don't hire them.

No problems with intial types ect. But what about recurrents and costs of doing business? This is what Behern was elluding to.

Any company that does this is truly a bottom feeder with leadership that has given up trying to lead and motivate the group.

This is holding a pilot hostage. Leadership fails to lead and pilots will go elsewhere.

 

[justwatching]

Let me pose a hypothetical (and real) situation:

You, G100, are the company owner (or "leader" as you like to use):

Pilot gets furloughed, is broke and comes absolutely begging for a job a couple years ago. His total times are okay, so you type him in a LR35 and everyone goes about their business. T

Along the way, recurrents have come and gone, and raises have come every year as promised. Benefits are great, morale is great, company is growing and new equipment is being added all the time. Maintenance is exemplary and the schedule rocks. You, as the business owner, G100 are very proud of your company and after each review HR reports that folks are happy.

You, business owner, are going to add a GIV. "Joe Pilot" seems like a great candidate. You're going to drop $30k+ on that training.

Here's the question: What do you do? Ask "Joe" to sign a ONE YEAR contract or not?

Your business sense is on the line here, G100....what do you do?

Hint: It's really tough to "lead" out of BK.

This happened to us 6 months ago. Nearly $3k/month is a lot of raises for the rest of us.