Anybody for the Age 60 Change Happen to have children who are pilots?

[Dan Roman]

Dan, speaking of DHC-7's, weren't they flown by pilots on HAL seniority list?

Yep, Flew them there and at Henson.

 

[whymeworry?]

Well said. It's hard to believe that anyone could complain about a parent wanting to fly to age 65 because the retirement package they were promised got jerked out from under them after they paid all that money for their kid to learn to fly. If I was in my twenties and my Dad had just paid for my education and flight training and than lost his retirement, I would be hoping and praying he could have the chance to keep flying if he needed to. The sense of entitlement the original poster has is galling.
An RJ pilot worried about age 60?? Since when does a job at a regional airline entitle you to move on to a larger carrier? If your an RJ pilot you are NOT at an airline effected by the rule and it's none of your business what the pilots at an airline that is effected do. You are not entitled to a job at SWA, UAL, DAL, Fed EX, etc etc just because you work at a regional airline. You may or may not make it to a larger airline, you may or may not even pass the first interview IF you do get called for an interview, it's none of your business until you work for an airline that is effected.
What's next, student pilots telling their flight instructor he'll have to quit once the student gets his ratings because he is taking up the job he needs to build up his experience?

Please tell me, what fight did you put up to keep your retirement? Management took plays out of the Lorenzo manual and you "senior" pilots failed to walk the talk. Y'all beat your chest about how experienced and necessary you are to the survival of this business. Yet when challenged to maintain a modicum of respect for the profession, you folded and voted (read VOTE) in a concessionary contract whereby you agreed to gut your own QOL.

As seniro pilots, you failed to lead nd instead fell victim to scare tactics and lawyers swifter than your MECs. Take ownership of where you are and go after management, rather than your fellow aviators.

 

[Dan Roman]

Please tell me, what fight did you put up to keep your retirement? Management took plays out of the Lorenzo manual and you "senior" pilots failed to walk the talk. Y'all beat your chest about how experienced and necessary you are to the survival of this business. Yet when challenged to maintain a modicum of respect for the profession, you folded and voted (read VOTE) in a concessionary contract whereby you agreed to gut your own QOL.

As seniro pilots, you failed to lead nd instead fell victim to scare tactics and lawyers swifter than your MECs. Take ownership of where you are and go after management, rather than your fellow aviators.

I can't speak for any other airline, but my airline came out of a very challenging situation without "screwing the junior pilots" in fact. the retiremnt for people junior to me is argueably better than what I have. The senior folks kept the DB, the junior folks get a mix of both. Their DC is more secure than what I have and has the potential for greater gains. My airline has never screwed the junior pilots for the benefit of the senior pilots. At one point we had the lowest L1011 payscale in the industry, but the highest DHC-7 (junior pilots) pay scale. We never had a B scale. We had a large scale furlough and the list of benefits that was extended to the furloughed pilots out of the working pilots pocket is to extensive to go into here. I could go on, but I can safely say we never stuck it to a the junior pilots at my airline to benefit the senior pilots.

 

[Dan Roman]

Whyme worry,
BTW, I don't work for CO, I'm guessing you do. You don't have a clue what our situation has been, so why would you be judging what we did?

 

[get2flyin]

Why the hell are we all arguing the topic in the 1st place? First off, we aren't going to change each others minds. Second, it's not like the decision is our to make. If you're so pissed about it, regardless of what side of the fence you're on, write your congressman instead of complaining on here.

*Yes, I did post on this topic and yes, I am calling the kettle black.

 

[waveflyer]

Common sense has to figure into this at some point. When the age 60 rule was implemented- ALPA and every pilot was pissed- and rightfully- b/c it was a successful ploy to chop off the highest paid, least productive group of pilots on the property (Ie: NOT lazy- but those who accrue the most vacation and sick time).

I think we as pilots don't adjust to change well enough and certainly not quickly enough. We look foolish when we pound the pavement everytime a change happens- when we could use that energy to use that change to our advantage.

Age 60 has always been a random rule-- Why should we argue to restrict our flying in our most profitable years if we want to continue flying?
5 years is a b/s number- It's already been pointed out that at some carriers- it's more profitable to still retire at 60 and take the DB. For others where it makes sense to keep flying-- what will it REALLY BE? Kind of a semi-retirement anyway, unless you like to donate your sick time and vacation back to the company.

The key is only to keep our contracts up (and personal finance up) so that we aren't all killing ourselves to age 65-- But imho- we don't need to be forced into retirement in order to make that the priority.

 

[kwick]

Children who are pilots are mostly against changing the rule to the international age standard.

 

[Flopgut]

Dan: career progression from a regional to a major is FAR more reasonable and customary than it is to assert a 40+ year rule should change to your benefit.

 

[The Prussian]

What he meant to say was....

Dan: career progression from a regional to a major is FAR more reasonable and customary (in today's way of thinking) than it is to correct a 40+ year rule that was wrong.

 

[jet1man]

Loud Noises!!!

 

[Flopgut]

What he meant to say was....

Dan: career progression from a regional to a major is FAR more reasonable and customary (in today's way of thinking) than it is to correct a 40+ year rule that was wrong.

Whatever.

Changing a 40+ year accepted methodology is extraordinary; It does not matter how you look at it. So when this change doesn't live up to your expectations (and it won't in most cases), what will be the next extraordinary demand you"ll want? Seriously, what's your next stunt going to be? Because I'm really not too worried about his rule change anymore. I believe it's going to end up favoring age 60 as normal retirement age.

 

[Flopgut]

Making up facts? The original string was made up by someone that appeared to me to be a regional pilot wanting more jobs to open up for him. Again, that's pretty cocky thinking that what the pilots do at USAir, SWA, DAL, NWA etc is any of his/her concern. Just because someone is flying an RJ somewhere does not entitle them to fly for one of the carriers that proggresion would be slowed due to age 65.

Friends and neighbors:

Old Danno's type is going to get an offer all too soon on some form of cabotage or foreign control that's going to take care of him, but leave everybody else out. And this is the same rational he'll use to justify taking it.

 

[Flopgut]

I can't speak for any other airline, but my airline came out of a very challenging situation without "screwing the junior pilots" in fact. the retiremnt for people junior to me is argueably better than what I have. The senior folks kept the DB, the junior folks get a mix of both. Their DC is more secure than what I have and has the potential for greater gains.

Hmmm. Shouldn't we adjust those dollars for inflation? Doesn't make it look quite as good then.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Who Likes Girls Jumping On Trampolines?

 

[get2flyin]

Children who are pilots are mostly against changing the rule to the international age standard.

Grandparents who are pilots are mostly for changing the rule to the international age standard.

 

[whymeworry?]

Whyme worry,
BTW, I don't work for CO, I'm guessing you do. You don't have a clue what our situation has been, so why would you be judging what we did?

I may not have all the insights that you do about your carrier's situation, but I certainly do have a clue. You don't have to be a genius to keep apprised of the goings-on at the various MECs in the airline business these days. I have studied virtually all of the MECs responses during the post 9/11 years. Hands down, they all failed to implement the full force of the RLA. I am not saying we shouldn't have helped the our respective airlines during the recovery years. What I am saying is our MECs let mgmt get away with outright robbery and now your generation of pilots want the younger to bail you out. Millions of dollars were paid to executives for running sub-standard balance sheets further into the dirt and labor was the ATM for their financial solutions. ALPA, which was lead by your generation of pilots, failed to draw it's line in the sand and enforce. It is the pilots who are now retiring that lead ALPA and their MECs down this road over the past few years. They failed miserably and now they want to stick around, at the expense of junior pilots, to fix their mistakes. Is this generation not the the whiniest bunch to ever to grace our skies? You guys were the leaders of your carrier's union and you failed to lead, failed to rise to the challenge failed to show mgmt what dealing with labor can result in. Instead, you threw the younger pilots of this business under the bus to save your retirements, which were taken from a majority of you anyway. Your beef should be with mgmt... not your fellow pilots. Mgmts paid themselves ridiculous amounts of cash in the years since these concessionary deals were signed. You could have prevented that behavior by using the RLA. Instead you decide to throw the youth of this business under the bus ONE MORE TIME by refusing to retire when you agreed to int he first place. How much longer do you want us to finance your failures? Let me guess, 10 more years. I would bet a million dollars that when y'all turn 65, you will be asking for the age to change to 70, and at 70 there you'll say there should be no age limit. When does it end?

Is it any wonder that after the last concessionary deal was signed the mgmts of this business succeeded in increasing fares no less than 42 times... fare increases that stuck? They did nothing novel, they simply charged the consumer for the cost of doing business plus a small profit. When we were all negotiating concessions they told us fare hikes were not possible. Our MECs deliver a sub-standard TA and moments later mgmts finally raise fares to cover the cost of our product.

I am not directing this only at your carrier, Dan, this goes to all the major carriers. Nobody, NOBODY opted to use the RLA to maintain their contracts (i.e. strike). Instead, they played into mgmts hands and now they whine that they should be able to stick around further asking the youth of their seniority list to do a cash-out financing of their futures.

Just who was leading these MECs during this period? The X-generation? They Y generation? Nope. You guys had chance to lead, you got spanked by mgmt instead (and took down the whole profession in the process).

I have always suggested that a compromise on this issue would be allowing the retiring pilots to come back into the right seat at full longevity. 99% of all the Captains I have suggested this to balk at such an idea... "why should I have to sit right seat with all my experience?!?" Why should I have to finance your lack of fiscal prudence while you played our unions into mgmts hands?

Look, lets just agree to disagree on this issue, which we obvioulsy do.

I flew a trip the other day where for two legs the Captain told me how angry he was that congress failed to get age-60 passed on the latest version of the FAA reauthorization bill. He went from one diatribe to the next about his 24 years of experience, and what a good stick he is... blah, blah, blah. At the end of the trip, after we get off the bus ride to the employee lot, he gets into his $53,000 brand new truck. Ya' think he's ready to retire?

 

[Wicked-Picket]

Brilliant ! You judge a guy by the truck he drives ?
I'm living in mine!

 

[get2flyin]

I may not have all the insights that you do about your carrier's situation, but I certainly do have a clue. You don't have to be a genius to keep apprised of the goings-on at the various MECs in the airline business these days. .

(Middle deleted because you can read it above)

Ya' think he's ready to retire?

Wow! Nicely stated. YEAH! What he said!

 

[Poahi]

Since when does a job at a regional airline entitle you to move on to a larger carrier?

and it's none of your business

it's none of your business until you work for an airline that is effected.

This generation warfare rhetoric nonsense has got to stop. Every career pilot has a stake in this issue whether you agree or not - and every person able to vote has a right to speak on this issue.

A regional job doesn't entitle you to a job with a DC/DB carrier, but inasmuch as it is reasonable that someone who was 'screwed' out of their DB retirement plan expected that money to retire, it is reasonable for a younger pilot to anticipate eventually getting on with a carrier that does have such a plan.

And here's another thing for those who don't believe it makes a difference: I've run present value numbers on two scenarios - one with a late twenty something flying for a regional and then getting on with a legacy carrier retiring at 65 and another one at 60. The results were virtually equal; i.e., adjusted for the time value of money, those working to 65 with a three year upgrade delay worked for free for the last five years. You can debate my assumptions, but you can't deny there is a consequence.

I've been lucky and fortunate enough to have my retirement under control as well, but please, let's maintain the discussion as if we were peers.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

It's pretty simple, really...

It ain't your f***ing seat until the airline gives it to you, and that means someone has to give it up. It's all a crap shoot as to when in your career that will happen.