Another SWA proposal

[The Prussian]

Andy...Haven't always been on the same side of the fence as you, but I've always respected your opinion...thanks for your sense of reality, in this particular instance.

 

[jetpilot243]

Got a serious question. Why would SWAPA want a different pay rate for the 717. According to the SWA guys on here there are over 700 AirTran applications in at SWA before merger announcement. So, it would be reasonable to believe that many of those 717 pilots also have 737 types. With no fences doesn't that mean when there is a 737 vacancy the pilot that can hold the vacancy can jump ship over to the 737 and all of the new hires at SWA will be forced on the 717. Why would they treat their new hires that way? Or are they adjusting longevity to meet the payrate adjustments? Just wondering?

Maybe SWA will only allow those with 737 types to bid the 737 (regardless of seniority) considering you don't need the type for an interview. This scenario would cut down on training costs. Of course, the devil will be in the details...

 

[scoreboardII]

A type in the 737 takes a circling approach during transition training, a single engine go around, and a slightly more thorough ground eval, sim takes 4 extra minutes for those two events, basically zero cost to anyone.

 

[Fubijaakr]

If its zero cost, why does SWA insist on a type rating prior to interview/hiring?

BECAUSE IT REDUCES TRAINING REQUIRED FOR QUALIFICATION, THUS REDUCING DIRECT COSTS TO THE AIRLINE.

Duh.

And it demonstrates who is "dedicated" enough to shell out $8K for training SWA should be paying for.

 

[Andy]

Andy...Haven't always been on the same side of the fence as you, but I've always respected your opinion...thanks for your sense of reality, in this particular instance.

LOL! Yes, I was quite passionate about 65. Unfortunately, I was correct as to my personal fate once 65 passed - another extended unpaid vacation.

I realize that there's a lot of passion on both sides of this integration. I had a lot of passion with respect to age 65.

What really bothers me is how some on the sidelines are urging the AirTran pilots to push the nuclear option (arbitration) without addressing the possible serious negative consequences of pursuing that path. Since AIP1 was turned down by the MEC, the moves by Southwest management have made it clear to me that AIP2 is the last offer on the table to integrate the two companies. Others may read the tea leaves differently but they're not only risking the career of AirTran's pilots, they're also risking every AirTran employee's jobs. That's 8,000 employees. In a brutally tough job market. So these AirTran cheerleaders will be able to slink off and go back to their jobs if they’re wrong after helping create the impetus for 8,000 AirTran employees to lose their jobs.

I think that the reason why Southwest wanted the pilot seniority list hammered out first is because if it turns too ugly, they can shut off plans for a single operating certificate and spin down AirTran within the current subdivision where AirTran currently resides within Southwest's corporate structure. Southwest acquired AirTran for a rapid large scale ATL presence/gates/slots and to eliminate a direct competitor. They've accomplished both of those goals and IMHO all other AirTran assets for the most part are viewed as either neutral or negative by Southwest management.

I’ve seen people use the term ‘fair and equitable’. The problem is that life is not fair and equitable and there never has been a fair and equitable seniority list integration in the eyes of all stakeholders. One’s definition of fair and equitable is completely different than another person’s definition.

I can see the arguments from both sides on this matter. The problem that the AirTran pilots have is that they no longer have any leverage in the negotiations. That went away the moment that Southwest gained a strong foothold in ATL and eliminated a competitor. Was AIP1 fair and equitable? Not to every stakeholder. Will AIP2 be fair and equitable? Again, not to every stakeholder. I know this sucks to quite a few people but you’ve got to accept the hand you’re dealt and slog on, just as I have since getting handed my second furlough in April 2009.

 

[maru657]

Then again, if this decision goes to arbitration and southwest attempts to destroy the Air Tran work force, putting a lot of people on the street, there could be some serious political repercussions. I suspect Kelly knows this.

 

[Cometman]

Then again, if this decision goes to arbitration and southwest attempts to destroy the Air Tran work force, putting a lot of people on the street, there could be some serious political repercussions. I suspect Kelly knows this.

Just 1700 on the street. The rest of the work force will have a job.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

there could be some serious political repercussions.

like what? not flaming, sincerely asking. as much as we'd like to think we are that important if you can offer people something for less money their memory will be very short to why they have these lower prices.

i honestly don't want anyone on the street, not good kharma, but it's out of my hands. again, i'm not that important. but if there was a nuclear option exercised the second worse thing to having people unemployed would be more legislation that would try and tell company's how to run their business ala bond/mcCaskill.

 

[freightdogfred]

It's SW's koolaid stand. They run it their way, so be it. If I don't like the taste of the koolaid there are other places to drink it's my choice, so be it.

The word "culture" has a whole new meaning to me.

 

[SWA/FO]

It's SW's koolaid stand. They run it their way, so be it. If I don't like the taste of the koolaid there are other places to drink it's my choice, so be it.

The word "culture" has a whole new meaning to me.

Exactly, thats why God gave us alcohol.

 

[On Your Six]

If its zero cost, why does SWA insist on a type rating prior to interview/hiring?

BECAUSE IT REDUCES TRAINING REQUIRED FOR QUALIFICATION, THUS REDUCING DIRECT COSTS TO THE AIRLINE.

Duh.

And it demonstrates who is "dedicated" enough to shell out $8K for training SWA should be paying for.

Wait, in this new economic environment, maybe the company can't afford it, or ANYTHING! Especially not the 717 rates equaling the 737. That might send them straight to BK! Watch out..... It was ok 1 month ago, but everything has changed since then...


Godspeed!



OYS

 

[Sacha]

Wait, in this new economic environment, maybe the company can't afford it, or ANYTHING! Especially not the 717 rates equaling the 737. That might send them straight to BK! Watch out..... It was ok 1 month ago, but everything has changed since then...


Godspeed!



OYS

And boy does she know bankruptcy court. OYS probably has the PBGC on speed dial.

GODSPEED!

 

[On Your Six]

And boy does she know bankruptcy court. OYS probably has the PBGC on speed dial.

GODSPEED!

Sasha,

I now have a DC fund, so that won't be my problem. Don't you know that number too from EAL? Oh wait, were you a scab? Nevertheless, if you don't turn your attitude around currently, you may need that number again someday. The big question is, will Ty be senior to you coming up here? I hope so.


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[slaquer5]

Sasha,

I now have a DC fund, so that won't be my problem. Don't you know that number too from EAL? Oh wait, were you a scab? Nevertheless, if you don't turn your attitude around currently, you may need that number again someday. The big question is, will Ty be senior to you coming up here? I hope so.


Godspeed!


OYS

You are one angry bit c I mean chick. I hope in several days it will pass for a month

 

[Sacha]

Is that DC fund going grow when your furloughed again sweetie? I know who Ty is and no, he won't be senior to me even with relative which ain't happening anyway.

Being a new hire again, facing furlough again AND a change of life occurring all at once I'm sure is difficult for you but there are some Meds you could take.....

GODSPEED!

 

[On Your Six]

Is that DC fund going grow when your furloughed again sweetie? I know who Ty is and no, he won't be senior to me even with relative which ain't happening anyway.

Being a new hire again, facing furlough again AND a change of life occurring all at once I'm sure is difficult for you but there are some Meds you could take.....

GODSPEED!

Furloughed again? Wow, you must still think you are at Eastern. Look old guy, first there is a flowdown to Compass or Mesaba if it ever happened again. Next, more profits for this quarter, and yearly projected profits too. Bag fees alone hit more than $900 million last year. Then, add huge retirement numbers, something you won't have. You will have stagnation, and younger Airtran guys going infront of you after the SLI. No wonder you are irritable. Maybe you have irritable bowel syndrome. That's it! Lay off the quesadillas in ELP.


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[Sacha]

Then why are you paid so little? Why do you make less than Airtran? If it wasn't for gouging your passengers for bag fees, you would have bled red like a stuffed pig. Your on the bottom of the list sweetie. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

 

[Bake]

Never argue with something that can bleed for 7 days without dying. Just saying.

 

[vv100]

Never argue with something that can bleed for 7 days without dying. Just saying.

Careful now she's bound to get hysterical.

Hey sweetie when ya calm down go make me a sandwich.

 

[Tripower455]

Never argue with something that can bleed for 7 days without dying. Just saying.

Especially one that spends it's life trolling on FI, with several different screen names no less!

 

[Fubijaakr]

Just 1700 on the street. The rest of the work force will have a job.

Seriously, Sonny. Google Bond/McCaskill and read it for comprehension. It SWA takes 50% of the ASSETS of AAI, they have to integrate the seniority lists.

That means gates, other employees, ground handling equipment, etc. not just pilots.

The God King has no choice unless he wants to run AAI as a subsidiary and that runs counter to everything he's said about growth, market and business plan.

Pull the Kool-Aid IV out of your arm. You guys don't even run it through your digestive tracts anymore. You lose the ability to process it for the crap it is.

 

[OldManPilot]

Seriously, Sonny. Google Bond/McCaskill and read it for comprehension. It SWA takes 50% of the ASSETS of AAI, they have to integrate the seniority lists.

That means gates, other employees, ground handling equipment, etc. not just pilots.

The God King has no choice unless he wants to run AAI as a subsidiary and that runs counter to everything he's said about growth, market and business plan.

Pull the Kool-Aid IV out of your arm. You guys don't even run it through your digestive tracts anymore. You lose the ability to process it for the crap it is.

Isn't it time for you to open your eyes and actually see the writing on the wall? GK will do exactly as he wants. Sure ALPA could take this to court where it would remain for years; meanwhile we are unemployed just waiting for that $20k payout we get in 10 years, after the lawyers take their cut and we divide what's left. Wake up and smell the coffee!

 

[ASADFW7]

I do not know what the actual position the AAI group has been put in, but as I said before to a few grumbles. I would rather be working at SWA than not.

 

[OldManPilot]

Where do you think our MEC is getting these wonderful "you can fight this" ideas? I'll tell you where, from ALPA legal council. Is all about $$$ in a THEIR pockets. ALPA stopped giving a sh!t about us as soon as this deal was announced. Have you not noticed that we are not even mentioned in ANY ALPA communications. They are in it now strictly for our dues money. The longer they can stretch this out, the more they make. WAKE UP MY FELLOW AT PILOTS!!!!!

 

[vv100]

Where do you think our MEC is getting these wonderful "you can fight this" ideas? I'll tell you where, from ALPA legal council. Is all about $$$ in a THEIR pockets. ALPA stopped giving a sh!t about us as soon as this deal was announced. Have you not noticed that we are not even mentioned in ANY ALPA communications. They are in it now strictly for our dues money. The longer they can stretch this out, the more they make. WAKE UP MY FELLOW AT PILOTS!!!!!

This is exactley what we've been trying to tell you guys. If you could get that lapdog JacknFubifuker to STFU perhaps you could hear us

 

[redflyer65]

Oldman is right. The only thing that the ALPA attorneys have ever wanted was to push SWAPA and SW to arbitration, so they could be taught a lesson. Has nothing to do with the AAI line guy/gal, except they have pumped this up to be the be all, end all solution. Very similiar to what Gen and OYS have continued to spout. But when dealing with Gary and Herb, I would rather trust them than ALPA. YMMV.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Seriously, Sonny. Google Bond/McCaskill and read it for comprehension. It SWA takes 50% of the ASSETS of AAI, they have to integrate the seniority lists.

That means gates, other employees, ground handling equipment, etc. not just pilots.

The God King has no choice unless he wants to run AAI as a subsidiary and that runs counter to everything he's said about growth, market and business plan.

Pull the Kool-Aid IV out of your arm. You guys don't even run it through your digestive tracts anymore. You lose the ability to process it for the crap it is.

Dude. Seriously. The more you post, the more ignorant you look, by the day. Even the AT guys are telling you that you can't see what's going on.

Watch and learn. You and your fellow morons OYS and GL are going to see that you were completely wrong. Some of us posted months ago that there was no requirement to integrate. It took Herb himself pounding his fist on a table in a room with only one lawyer (himself), and telling them that they would not F*** up his airline, to get the message across to the ALPA lackeys. (BTW, Lear and PCL are noticably absent. Guess they're finally "getting it".)

 

[Sacha]

Isn't it time for you to open your eyes and actually see the writing on the wall? GK will do exactly as he wants. Sure ALPA could take this to court where it would remain for years; meanwhile we are unemployed just waiting for that $20k payout we get in 10 years, after the lawyers take their cut and we divide what's left. Wake up and smell the coffee!

You are so right sir. Ask any striking Eastern guy about all of the lawsuits, particularly those relating to Single Carrier Status. In the end, a handful of striking EAL guys got to go to the bottom of Continentals list. Lawyers ensured themselves full employment for years and years was about the only thing accomplished. I got bored with reading the updates after 4 or 5 years. If you are an Airtran guy and you think ALPA and the government is going to ride to the rescue just ask any of us Eastern guys. Hell, even ask a Valuejet scab if he was original Eastern that is. If you are 25 or 30, I guess you can risk it and still recover. But if you are 35, 40 or 45 you will never recover. I personally saw how it turned out for many of my friends and coworkers. Don't go there. It's not worth it. Will all the guys like OYS, Fubi, cheering you on be there if it doesn't work out? Will they make sure Alaska or Delta gives you first right of hire in the event you end up on the street? NOPE. They will just change their Avatars and pose as a troll on some other airlines thread. COUNT ON IT.

 

[Andy]

Isn't it time for you to open your eyes and actually see the writing on the wall? GK will do exactly as he wants. Sure ALPA could take this to court where it would remain for years; meanwhile we are unemployed just waiting for that $20k payout we get in 10 years, after the lawyers take their cut and we divide what's left. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Fubi has no skin in the game. He flies for Alaska. I also have no skin in the game. No matter what happens to AirTran and Southwest, it will have very little impact on Fubi and me.

I apologize for laying out possible fragmentation scenarios. I don't know what the probability of them coming to fruition would be but I think it's best for AirTran pilots to evaluate all scenarios.

Fubi speaks of McCaskill-Bond as if it's some sort of safety net. It's not. If Southwest needs to 'sell' 50% of assets to a Goldman Sachs shell company, they will. And then leaseback any assets they want to keep. Lav pumpers or any other assets that AirTran has on the books.
Again, if you and I can think of this, slick lawyers have already drafted up plans to execute if needed.

Where do you think our MEC is getting these wonderful "you can fight this" ideas? I'll tell you where, from ALPA legal council. Is all about $$$ in a THEIR pockets. ALPA stopped giving a sh!t about us as soon as this deal was announced. Have you not noticed that we are not even mentioned in ANY ALPA communications. They are in it now strictly for our dues money. The longer they can stretch this out, the more they make. WAKE UP MY FELLOW AT PILOTS!!!!!

ALPO sucks. They've proven time and again that they can't be trusted.

Good luck to everyone at AirTran and Southwest. I hope things work out OK for both sides. Unfortunately, there's no such thing as 'fair and equitable' in the airline business or in life.

 

[B727Driver]

Never argue with something that can bleed for 7 days without dying. Just saying.

Or $25+ billion and not go out of business.