Another mandatory ASA letter from Tutt

[John Pennekamp]

Voice...You are wrong...the 900's is SLC have SK tail numbers. First two on property were 800SK and 802SK. Get your facts right!!!

Don't worry, LJ, aka "Voice" has never let the truth stand in her way. She does date************ after all. I can't believe she threw her marriage in the toilet for that guy. He's almost her son's age. gross.

 

[Bizjet]

PCL_128 is a Pinnacle pilot who paid to sit in the right seat at Gulfstream. He needs to mind his own business. We wouldn't have this problem if people like him didn't actually pay money to be FOs at places like Gulfstream.

You are a much greater concern that PCL_128. He can think and you only type the approved management crap for your post. You are weak and you can forget voting on the management insult of an offer. You are in the minority and in a union the majority rules. You need to work the crew lounge and get support for your management agenda. Posting on here just makes you look like a fool you tool.

 

[Bizjet]

Does Mesa have a 70 seat rate? How does it compare to Skywests non rate? Does UPS have a 747 rate? Does FedEx have an MD11 rate?

Why don't you stay on task. If you want to work for Mesa, FedEx or UPS I am sure you could get about 1800 letters of recommendation.

 

["GO AROUND"]

ASADriver,

I don't know the numbers in our counter for Pay, per diem, etc... It was as someone else said, the company movement was so little that our response was equal to it and that is that. The mediator knew that it was the companys' turn to start to close the gap and we would respond in kind to it.
Like I said before we are done negotiating with ourselves and the only side losing in these negotiations.

It was said by the CNC/MEC that you could think of this contract as each side having a big jar of pennies, each one equal to what each side wanted or didn't want in this contract, to negotiate with. Our jar only has a few pennies left while the companys' is still half full. We are done giving away all our pennies with nothing being given or not being matched by the company.

Don't know what else to tell ya but to call your rep's and ask what the numbers were in the counter.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Let's see, 10 pages of chatter and still cant' get a straight answer. So I say again, Why hasn't the MEC posted what the response was to the company? At this point I don't care about jars of pennies and I am not calling Waldo or chasing down a P2P. Just post the response so the rank and file can read it w/o the spin of ALPA being placed on it over the phone. Once I read it, I can draw my own conclusion.

You can't just tell me what is wrong/lacking in the companies offer and not tell me what you countered with. I want the whole story not just half.

 

[shamrock]

I am not......chasing down a P2P. Just post the response so the rank and file can read it w/o the spin of ALPA being placed on it over the phone.

Yeah, because there's absolutely no spin involved when the Company posts!

How exactly can ALPA post the ALPA response to the company without an ALPA "spin" on it? Whether the response is in written form or verbally relayed it will still be from the ALPA point of view and thus will be "infected" by the ALPA "spin" you are so weary of.

Why some people here so suspicious of anything that comes from ALPA but take any info from the Company at face value is beyond me. If you want to believe the Company over the Union then that's your prerogative, but it seems that many that feel that way have already made up their minds and no amount of info from ALPA (outside of an announcement of complete surrender to the Company's wishes) is going to change that.

And there's no need to "chase down" a P2P rep, they're no that hard to find. PM HoserASA, and if you don't want to talk to him I'm sure he could put you in contact with any number of other P2P reps or Union reps to hear their side. Truth be told though, you're not going to do that because you're not really all that interested in anything they might tell you, and if you were to talk to them you wouldn't be able to complain about being in the dark about the Union's position anymore.

 

[Bizjet]

Let's see, 10 pages of chatter and still cant' get a straight answer. So I say again, Why hasn't the MEC posted what the response was to the company? At this point I don't care about jars of pennies and I am not calling Waldo or chasing down a P2P. Just post the response so the rank and file can read it w/o the spin of ALPA being placed on it over the phone. Once I read it, I can draw my own conclusion.

You can't just tell me what is wrong/lacking in the companies offer and not tell me what you countered with. I want the whole story not just half.

You need to go to management to get your answers because you are clearly biased against the union. So do your own information gathering and stop your incessant whining Mr. ANTI UNION WHINER PRO MANAGEMENT WUSSY!uke:

 

[ASADriver]

Don't know whiny boy. But, I do know that ASA has a 50 and a 70 rate, and we ain't giving that up. And a 1/4 of a percent pay increase ain't gonna hack it either. I want some mo money to fly the 700 dang it! Some COL is in order Driver. Take that back to BL, CT, SH, or whomever you report to you management clown.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

Mesa has separate rates for the 50,70, and 90, but their 70 rate is less than Skywest's 50/70 rate. UPS and FedEx don't have separate rates for different aircraft, but I guess that is OK.

 

[ASADriver]

Wilson polling. Y'all are stuck on that strike vote. Charlie and Brian must be running around the GO like parrots talking about how we only got 92%.

I don't know what is being said at the GO, but I do know that the strike vote was kind of weak for 4 years into it.

 

[Bizjet]

Mesa has separate rates for the 50,70, and 90, but their 70 rate is less than Skywest's 50/70 rate. UPS and FedEx don't have separate rates for different aircraft, but I guess that is OK.

Who cares?

 

[ASADriver]

You are a much greater concern that PCL_128. He can think and you only type the approved management crap for your post. You are weak and you can forget voting on the management insult of an offer. You are in the minority and in a union the majority rules. You need to work the crew lounge and get support for your management agenda. Posting on here just makes you look like a fool you tool.

You don't get it do you. PCL_128 paid to be an FO for an airline, and now he works for an airline that has a worse contract than we do at ASA. It is people like him that have brought the industry down, and now we all have to deal with it.

 

[ASADriver]

ASADriver,

I don't know the numbers in our counter for Pay, per diem, etc... It was as someone else said, the company movement was so little that our response was equal to it and that is that. The mediator knew that it was the companys' turn to start to close the gap and we would respond in kind to it.
Like I said before we are done negotiating with ourselves and the only side losing in these negotiations.

It was said by the CNC/MEC that you could think of this contract as each side having a big jar of pennies, each one equal to what each side wanted or didn't want in this contract, to negotiate with. Our jar only has a few pennies left while the companys' is still half full. We are done giving away all our pennies with nothing being given or not being matched by the company.

Don't know what else to tell ya but to call your rep's and ask what the numbers were in the counter.

Why can't we see the counter offer? Is that too much to ask? Put the info. out and let the membership decide.

 

[ASADriver]

You need to go to management to get your answers because you are clearly biased against the union. So do your own information gathering and stop your incessant whining Mr. ANTI UNION WHINER PRO MANAGEMENT WUSSY!uke:

Hey Bizjet, I believe Atlcrjdriver voted to strike with you. You aren't being very nice to your fellow "yes" voter. Sounds like the troops are divided.

 

[ASADriver]

Who cares?

Obviously you don't care about the facts!

 

[Bizjet]

Obviously you don't care about the facts!

You don't deal in facts. Just your management friendly BS. Do you call Charlie or Scott and say hey guys look what I am doing for you guys. Can I be a Chief Pilot now? I will even work under CV if you want me too.

You are a turn coat. You won't get to vote on the contract until the majority says you can.

 

[John Pennekamp]

nevermind...

 

[John Pennekamp]

Let's see, 10 pages of chatter and still cant' get a straight answer. So I say again, Why hasn't the MEC posted what the response was to the company? At this point I don't care about jars of pennies and I am not calling Waldo or chasing down a P2P. Just post the response so the rank and file can read it w/o the spin of ALPA being placed on it over the phone. Once I read it, I can draw my own conclusion.

You can't just tell me what is wrong/lacking in the companies offer and not tell me what you countered with. I want the whole story not just half.

Why can't we see the counter offer? Is that too much to ask? Put the info. out and let the membership decide.

atlcrjdriver:
If you don't know what's going on, then it's YOUR fault, not the union's. The information is out there and the resources are posted. Get off your lazy butt and find out instead of waiting for someone to spoon feed it to you! Call a rep! Call the CNC chairman! They take calls! Email them!

To vaguely answer your question, the union has not put its proposal up on a website because they won't stoop to the company's level of having negotiations in public. Such violates the trust they could have had, and the protocol agreements both sides signed. Our union won't beat them by becoming them, and most of us applaud them for that.

ASA Driver:
Those of you who want to see it posted will only twist it to further bash the union in your self serving agenda, regardless of how reasonable the union demands are to the MAJORITY of us. That's smart politics on the unions' part... to keep you constant whiners at bay. Some of you will never be happy until the union's gone, regardless of what they ask for! You are in the minority and you don't count unless you can convince a majority to vote with you. Good luck on that! News flash... NOBODY IN THE PILOT GROUP TRUSTS YOU AND YOUR MANAGEMENT BUDDIES!!!

 

[John Pennekamp]

No, not crying here. I'm fairly happy at ASA. If I wasn't, I would leave. Only an idiot would work for a company that treats them like crap. You seem kind of miserable here, why don't you find something that makes you happier? Obviously ASA isn't it.

Why do you all feel the need to personally attack and "out" people. You are wrong about me, but I still don't understand why you guys cant debate the issues instead of personal attacks. It speaks volumes about you if your only way to debate is to personally attack.

Two incredibly weak responses from an incredibly weak individual.

As stated above, the majority has spoken. You know you cannot get enough votes to take over the majority without going in the crew lounge and speaking out. You won't do that because you're afraid.

Your whining here on flightinfo will only rally your handful of supporters, and scare the junior pilots, who can't vote anyhow if on probation (but will eventually learn the truth about you and your management buddies). You cannot organize a majority here. You lost.

Now you have choices. You can STFU and go with the flow. You can hit the crew loungs and try to sway opinions. Or you can quit ASA and go somewhere that they agree with your ideas. The choice is up to you.

Whining on an anonymous message board won't get you where you want to be.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Why can't we see the counter offer? Is that too much to ask? Put the info. out and let the membership decide.

Sure you can, ask the people that have it.
I will ask my reps, I can only suggest you do the same. Have you called the ASA ALPA office and asked?

The company offer was not good enough according to the membership polls. They are still inadequately adressing some of the issues and not addressing some of the others that the membership has told the MEC/CNC that they want improved.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Yeah, because there's absolutely no spin involved when the Company posts!

How exactly can ALPA post the ALPA response to the company without an ALPA "spin" on it? Whether the response is in written form or verbally relayed it will still be from the ALPA point of view and thus will be "infected" by the ALPA "spin" you are so weary of.

If you actually read my post, I never said the company was free of spin. What I did say was they posted the last proposal for us to read. I simply want to read the unions side. Am I wrong for not wanting to blindly follow the group into the shadows of darknes w/o a flashlight. Am I the only one on this board that is curious as to what the counter was that the CNC put to the mediator? The e-mail they put out had bits and pieces of the counter yet, for some reason, omitted the pay portions. I am simply wondering why.

You would think it would be allot easier to simply post it in an e-mail than have 1800 pilots chasing P2P for this top secret information.

 

[John Pennekamp]

If you actually read my post, I never said the company was free of spin. What I did say was they posted the last proposal for us to read. I simply want to read the unions side. Am I wrong for not wanting to blindly follow the group into the shadows of darknes w/o a flashlight. Am I the only one on this board that is curious as to what the counter was that the CNC put to the mediator? The e-mail they put out had bits and pieces of the counter yet, for some reason, omitted the pay portions. I am simply wondering why.

You would think it would be allot easier to simply post it in an e-mail than have 1800 pilots chasing P2P for this top secret information.

Why are you so skeptical of your union? Why are you so determined to "see both sides"? Why do some of you feel the "truth is somewhere in the middle"? The truth is NOT in the middle! That's what the company wants you to think because it weakens the union! Duh!

The company is motivated to lie to you. They stand to lose tens of millions of dollars if we get a good contract, not only the money they'll give us, but also because the Skywest pilots will surely "me too" whatever we get. There will also be management cuts and loss of bonuses.

What motivation does the union have to lie to you? Holding onto power? Your reps are all volunteers. Most of them still fly regular lines, but a few are on full time leave. By ALPA's bylaws, they cannot be compensated above what they would have been paid flying the line. I know them and firmly believe that if they lost their positions, they would happily return to line flying. Most would welcome the break of a very stressful and time consuming second job.

The only thing ALPA has to lose is the benefits of a good contract. One that's good for all ASA pilots and our families. So why are you so skeptical of the union? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You would think it would be allot easier to simply post it in an e-mail than have 1800 pilots chasing P2P for this top secret information.

It's not secret. It's just not published for all the world (including outside of ASA) to see.

Remember Zoltar? How's that working out for the Skywest pilots?

No good can come of the union publicly showing their cards. The company doing it is a publicity stunt, that seems to have backfired. All I hear in the lounge and on the bus is what a joke the company proposal is. What good will it do the union to show their side? They already have the advantage of MAJORITY support. The company doesn't and is desperate. If you want to see it, talk to a rep.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

JP, what makes you believe that I am for any reason union bashing. I actually voted in-favor of the strike to help get this thing moving. What I won't do is simply put blind faith in either group. How will posting what the counter proposal was hurt the unions stance on the issues at hand? They put a 4-5 page e-mail out back in May saying exactly what they wanted and I respect them for that. Why can't they do this now?

 

[Bizjet]

Hey Bizjet, I believe Atlcrjdriver voted to strike with you. You aren't being very nice to your fellow "yes" voter. Sounds like the troops are divided.

Read your post. In your post you remove yourself from the ASA pilot group. You seem to be an outsider, either management or you are not in the union. What you are saying now is Atlcrjdriver has voted to strike. I assume you voted 'NO". I seriously doubt you will strike if that is what we have to do to get a fair contract. Care to let the rest of us know if you will join the majority if a strike is called. If you are in management as I suspect you will not strike but you will be attempting to bust your fellow pilots balls supporting a management that will no longer work for the airline.

You appear to be totally ignorant and you may truly be. Posting and requesting a vote on every company lame offer and ignoring the advice others have given you repeatedly is a tactic used by management. They ask the same question over and over again hoping some of the doubt they create will stick. I think you are asking over and over again not because you are so ignorant but because you are ASA management. That alone would qualify you for two awards. One for being ignorant based on the company's management teams lack of performance and another for not being able to grasp the obvious after numerious attempts to educate you by others who continue to give you more than reasonable answers for your only question. I am calling you on your tactic as being one of the dimwitted managers for ASA. You have already proven me right. I seriously doubt you are flying an aircraft for any airline with your reduced mental faculties.

Why don't you lay off the keyboard and try to get your fellow managers to help you turn this failed airline around? If you are just bored then get CT, SH or CV (I am sure he would be happy to assist) to cut a hole in your pants pockets so you can have something to play with at work--I know they are doing very little for their pay.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[atlcrjdriver]

It's not secret. It's just not published for all the world (including outside of ASA) to see.

OK so you can tell me about the document but I can't read it for myself. That makes no sense at all. If you want to keep it out of "public" view then put it on the ASAMEC web page or connection e-mail. Apparently they don't have allot of faith in the rank and file to make thier own decision based on the whole story.

 

[John Pennekamp]

JP, what makes you believe that I am for any reason union bashing. I actually voted in-favor of the strike to help get this thing moving. What I won't do is simply put blind faith in either group. How will posting what the counter proposal was hurt the unions stance on the issues at hand? They put a 4-5 page e-mail out back in May saying exactly what they wanted and I respect them for that. Why can't they do this now?

I never accused you of union bashing. That's ASADriver. I accused you of being skeptical and asked why you don't trust your union. And you didn't answer the question.

As to your second question, I answered it in my second post to you. The union has no advantage to publicly show their cards at this time. Why give management more bullets to shoot at them? That just creates more work for them!

The info is not secret. You can get it. Get of the computer and call your reps!

 

[John Pennekamp]

OK so you can tell me about the document but I can't read it for myself. That makes no sense at all. If you want to keep it out of "public" view then put it on the ASAMEC web page or connection e-mail. Apparently they don't have allot of faith in the rank and file to make thier own decision based on the whole story.

Yeah, and how's that work out for the union message board that management shills like ASADriver give away their passwords to upper management? The entire document would be posted on Flightinfo within minutes!

The biggest reason is that our contract debate belongs in the crew lounge, not in the general media!

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Biz, IF you really fly for ASA then you really are a mindless Union puppy. They say jump and you say how high. Let me give you piece of advice, read the post before you attempt a reply. I am neither pro company nor pro union and will not blindly follow either side. I voted yes to get this contract done and to give the union power to push merger protection through. That is about the only issue IMHO worth striking for. If they can post what they were looking for in May why can't they do it now?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Biz, IF you really fly for ASA then you really are a mindless Union puppy. They say jump and you say how high. Let me give you piece of advice, read the post before you attempt a reply. I am neither pro company nor pro union and will not blindly follow either side. I voted yes to get this contract done and to give the union power to push merger protection through. That is about the only issue IMHO worth striking for. If they can post what they were looking for in May why can't they do it now?

WHY DO YOU NOT TRUST YOUR UNION???????

 

[atlcrjdriver]

JP, doesn't mgmnt already have the unions latest counter? By now it should be no secret to them. How else would they prepare the next counter? All I want is to read it for myself.