Another mandatory ASA letter from Tutt

[John Pennekamp]

JP, doesn't mgmnt already have the unions latest counter? By now it should be no secret to them. How else would they prepare the next counter? All I want is to read it for myself.

Of course they have it. It's their turn.

AGAIN, WHY DO YOU NOT TRUST YOUR UNION?????????

 

[atlcrjdriver]

I never said I don't trust our CNC, they are doing a tough job in a cut throat industry. Having skepticism is a good thing as a form of checks and balances to make sure that what we are looking for as a group is what is actually going on and being fought for. If we never actually see the offer/counters, how do you know this. Not saying they would ever lie to us but, for those of us w/ families/other jobs or just busy lives outside of ASA I don't have allot of tx to chase people down. Simply send me the e-mail so I can read it for myself. The next wilson poll/call-in I can answer the questions and tell them what I think based on facts w/ the whole story.

Again, If mgmnt already has the counter why can't the rank and file?

 

[sweptback]

I never said I don't trust our CNC, they are doing a tough job in a cut throat industry. Having skepticism is a good thing as a form of checks and balances to make sure that what we are looking for as a group is what is actually going on and being fought for. If we never actually see the offer/counters, how do you know this. Not saying they would ever lie to us but, for those of us w/ families/other jobs or just busy lives outside of ASA I don't have allot of tx to chase people down. Simply send me the e-mail so I can read it for myself. The next wilson poll/call-in I can answer the questions and tell them what I think based on facts w/ the whole story.

Again, If mgmnt already has the counter why can't the rank and file?

Because that's not the way negotiations work. This is obviously your first airline and contract negotiation, and I can understand that you don't know how the process works. Do me a favor and go on the Majors board and ask a FedEx or UPS pilot if their union posted verbatim every counter offer they passed back. It just doesn't happen.

Please call your status rep, any other member of the MEC or CNC, or P2P and share your concerns with them rather than complaining on Flightinfo. I understand that sometimes the P2Ps are hard to find, but yesterday I counted three in the short time I was in the crew lounge. I thought the email I received last night did a very good job of going over the company proposal and the union's position on it. If you still have questions after reading that, you're really not going to find the answer on here.

 

[ASARJMan]

I will even work under CV if you want me too.

LOL bet CV would love that!

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[ASARJMan]

just busy lives outside of ASA I don't have allot of tx to chase people down.

But you have the time to constantly post on here don'tya? Had to hit you on that one.
If you're really a union pilot at ASA, or a mgt puke (like asadriver) with someone's password, go to the ALPA/ASA web site. There's a negotiation update there that expands on the company's proposal (reveals what the consequences are of the company's offer, and what they leave out). Try it, you'll like it, if you're an ALPA member anyway.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Because that's not the way negotiations work. This is obviously your first airline and contract negotiation, and I can understand that you don't know how the process works.

Never assume anything, you only make an a** out of yourself. As for the e-mail they sent out, yes it was very informative. Yet, why did it omit the what they were asking for in wages. They said very clearly what was wrong with the company's offer yet not what they were asking. Maybe it is just me but that was very odd. My only question is why. If P2Ps are that easy to come by then someone on this board should be able to answer and solve this simple question.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Here are some numbers I came up with using ALPA's latest update on the payrates they are asking for.

Top 70 (90) seat captain rates
USAir E190 $95
JBLU E190 $$89
CHQ E170 $99
GOJet $84
Mesaba $94 (in concessionary talks now)
PSA $91
EGL $97
CMR $94 (Concessionary rate -hasn’t taken effect yet)
Mesa 70 seat $90
Mesa 90 seat $100
Skywest $93
Horizon $121
ASA company proposal $102 (current book)
ASA ALPA proposal $112


3rd. Year 70 (90)first officer rates
USAir E190 $46
JBLU E190 $42
CHQ E170 $34
GoJet $34
Mesaba $31
PSA $29
EGL $34
CMR $34
Mesa 70 and 90 $31
Skywest $36
Horizon $43
ASA company proposal $38
ASA ALPA proposal $42


50 Seat Capt. (15years)
CHQ $87
Mesaba $84
PSA $82
EGL $88
CMR $83
Mesa $78
Skywest $86
XJT $87
Pinnacle $82
Air Wisc.$85
Trans States $82
ASA company proposal $83
ASA ALPA proposal $92


50 Seat FO (yr 3)
CHQ $34
Mesaba $31
PSA $29
EGL $34
CMR $34
Mesa $31
Skywest $36
XJT $35
Pinnacle $30
Air Wisc.$36
TransStates $32
ASA company proposal $38
ASA ALPA proposal $39


Per Diem
CHQ $1.55
GoJet $1.40
Mesaba $1.55 (in concessionary talks now)
PSA $1.35
EGL $1.60
CMR $1.50 (concessionary agreement)
Mesa $1.25
Skywest $1.60
Air Wisc $1.40
Piedmont $1.45
Pinnacle $1.40
Trans States $1.40
XJT $1.60
Horizon $1.70
ASA company proposal $1.60

 

[ReportCanoa]

So the question remains- when are we to be released?

 

[ASARJMan]

Here are some numbers I came up with using ALPA's latest update on the payrates they are asking for.

Yes Joey, we saw this same posting from you on the other thread. Yawn....

VOTED IN FAVOR! (cancels out Joey's yes vote )

 

[Richard Gozinya]

Yeah, and how's that work out for the union message board that management shills like ASADriver give away their passwords to upper management? The entire document would be posted on Flightinfo within minutes!


Yea, that sh1t really pisses me off! There should be some ass whoopin over that.

Dick

 

[Sinca3]

JoeM...
....what you continue to fail and mention is that the union has wiggle room!! They have said it publicly and even to the arbitrator....the company knows it....there is room to come down!!!
I don´t disagree with everything you post or say/believe but you got to get off the doom and gloom band wagon!

 

[ASADriver]

nevermind...

Most intelligent thing you've said.

 

[ASADriver]

ASA Driver:
Those of you who want to see it posted will only twist it to further bash the union in your self serving agenda, regardless of how reasonable the union demands are to the MAJORITY of us. That's smart politics on the unions' part... to keep you constant whiners at bay. Some of you will never be happy until the union's gone, regardless of what they ask for! You are in the minority and you don't count unless you can convince a majority to vote with you. Good luck on that! News flash... NOBODY IN THE PILOT GROUP TRUSTS YOU AND YOUR MANAGEMENT BUDDIES!!!

Translation - you're controlling the information to manipulate the membership. Why would information be a bad thing unless you were trying to manipulate the membership?

 

[ASADriver]

Sure you can, ask the people that have it.
I will ask my reps, I can only suggest you do the same. Have you called the ASA ALPA office and asked?

The company offer was not good enough according to the membership polls. They are still inadequately adressing some of the issues and not addressing some of the others that the membership has told the MEC/CNC that they want improved.

I've talked to reps., I've gone to meetings, I've talked to P2P people, and I still get the feeling that the union is trying to control information so as to control the membership. Many pilots I talk to say the company offer isn't the best, but it is definately acceptable to prevent flying from being transferred to Skywest.

 

[ASADriver]

Yeah, and how's that work out for the union message board that management shills like ASADriver give away their passwords to upper management? The entire document would be posted on Flightinfo within minutes!

The biggest reason is that our contract debate belongs in the crew lounge, not in the general media!

Sorry JP, but I haven't handed my password out to anyone and I can count on one hand how many times I have been to the GO. The union has put out it's proposal before, why not now?

 

[ASADriver]

WHY DO YOU NOT TRUST YOUR UNION???????

I don't trust anyone, except for my family. Why should I trust ALPA - they don't exactly have a great track record.

 

[Bizjet]

Biz, IF you really fly for ASA then you really are a mindless Union puppy. They say jump and you say how high. Let me give you piece of advice, read the post before you attempt a reply. I am neither pro company nor pro union and will not blindly follow either side. I voted yes to get this contract done and to give the union power to push merger protection through. That is about the only issue IMHO worth striking for. If they can post what they were looking for in May why can't they do it now?

Why don't you take the advice of those that have suggested for you to call your rep or the CNC and get the information? You are worse than any one posting by asking the same question in all your post. Either you are too lazy to do anything but type and bitch or you are one of the weakest union members along with others like JoeMerchant. If you believe that merger protection is the only issue worth striking for then why would you find any thing acceptable in the company proposal. The company is so dimwitted that they posted their proposal the first time back in April and couldn't understand why the pilots were so pissed. They believe that their propoganda is working. They are so out of touch with the pilot group because they have the worthless Chief Pilots telling senior management that the pilots are buying their line of BS when they come to the crew lounge. Our chief pilots are worthless. Go ask one of them your same stupid repetitive question you post here daily. They will give you the management answer and I am sure you with thank them and come back here and ask the same question again and again. Each time you post the question here you could just as easily send an email to the CNC and request a phone reply. I think you just like to bitch and read you own BS.

Stop whining and get your own info. Do you have to be spoon fed taking family meals?

 

[John Pennekamp]

I don't trust anyone, except for my family. Why should I trust ALPA - they don't exactly have a great track record.

Tell us about the ASA MEC's bad track record. This should be good. Oh, you meant Duane Woerthless. It's OUR MEC running negotiations, fool, not Duane and co.!

Why should you trust them? I dunno, maybe because they have no conflict of interest? They too will live under the contract we get for 8+ years. Their only responsibility is to take care of their fellow pilots and their families.

The company has a huge conflict of interest, because they couldn't care less about taking care of you and your family. Their responsibility is to the shareholders and their bonuses.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Most intelligent thing you've said.

That was childish and petty. Guess it's the best, most logical argument your weak mind could come up with. That speaks volumes about you.

Translation - you're controlling the information to manipulate the membership. Why would information be a bad thing unless you were trying to manipulate the membership?

I am not controlling anything. I am a line pilot just like you claim to be.

I've talked to reps., I've gone to meetings, I've talked to P2P people, and I still get the feeling that the union is trying to control information so as to control the membership. Many pilots I talk to say the company offer isn't the best, but it is definately acceptable to prevent flying from being transferred to Skywest.

"Many" pilots you've talked to? So tell us, EXACTLY how many have you talked to? Did you do a scientific cross-section of our pilot group, or did you just ask your buddies who think like you? The MEC has scientific polls that say MOST pilots disagree with you and your buddies and that MOST ASA pilots would rather see this place get transferred or shut down rather than cave in on this 4 year battle. What do you think about that, SPORT?

Sorry JP, but I haven't handed my password out to anyone and I can count on one hand how many times I have been to the GO. The union has put out it's proposal before, why not now?

Uh huh. you admitted being "The Biscuit" several weeks ago. Do you have multiple personality syndrome?

As for the proposal, I suggest you call your rep and ask him. Whining on Flightinfo won't get you the information you claim to want.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Many pilots I talk to say the company offer isn't the best, but it is definately acceptable to prevent flying from being transferred to Skywest.

How does it do this? The scope section is horrible.

Taken in the pure words on paper intent of the the agreement, this facilitates the transfer of airplanes to SkyWest with ASA pilots keeping their vacation time and pay (not position, or bidding) on DOH.

 

[ReportCanoa]

They're using scope as the number one bargaining chip. It looks so bad on paper, if they improve it, guys just may go for the rest of the garbage. I'm not one of them, however.

 

[ASApuppy]

Here is my section 1:

At the transfer of the very first ASA asset to Skywest, both pilot groups will be merged, by means agreeable to both. Upon completion of a merged list, the General Office in Atlanta will be permenently locked and those employess will be considered for employment at Skywest, IF SKYWEST IS HIRING, for their position.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Why don't you take the advice of those that have suggested for you to call your rep or the CNC and get the information?

Well Biz, the short answer is that I want the facts w/o the union spin. I don't need anyone to tell me what to think about these proposals and why should I? I can read the thing for myself and draw my own conclusion. To make it very clear for you b/c you seem to have difficulty thinking for yourself, just show me the numbers and leave me alone.

The entire excus that the company might see it and use our counter against us is insane. Sorry try again...

 

[ReportCanoa]

The union will always put their take on the issues. That's what you pay them to do. If you haven't figured it out yet, may I suggest taking a college course called organizationtal behavior. You'll learn how groups like unions and corporations do business, and how to decipher the real meaning of what they say.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

The offer doesn't look bad to me. I would like to see better scope. The fact that we were parked again leads me to believe ALPA is still out in left field on their proposal.

By the way, the union says that those 90 seaters were never coming to ASA. If that is so, then why do they have EV N#s? Those of us in SLC are taxing past these EV 90 seaters everyday. I believe they were coming to ASA.

That's an outright lie, or you really should be failing your medicals because you can't see! Not one of the 900's have ever had EV N#s!!!

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Mesa has separate rates for the 50,70, and 90, but their 70 rate is less than Skywest's 50/70 rate. UPS and FedEx don't have separate rates for different aircraft, but I guess that is OK.

Uh, yeah...and you forgot to mention UPS pilots just signed a new contract with a 25% pay increase(bringing their average up to over $207,000 annually), and don't forget the $60,000 signing bonus. What's your point?

 

[JoeMerchant]

So the question remains- when are we to be released?

Not in this lifetime based on what we are asking for compared to the industry standard.

 

[JoeMerchant]

JoeM...
....what you continue to fail and mention is that the union has wiggle room!! They have said it publicly and even to the arbitrator....the company knows it....there is room to come down!!!
I don´t disagree with everything you post or say/believe but you got to get off the doom and gloom band wagon!

The company has "wiggle room" also. However the union wants to cherry pick the best of every agreement. That isn't going to work regardless of how much you or others want it to. While we hold out, our flying will be transferred. As our flying is transferred, our leverage is reduced. Believe me, I don't want to preach "doom and gloom", but I don't base my beliefs only on what I want to see. You can call it "doom and gloom" - I call it reality.

 

[Palerider957]

Jesus Christ! This is pathetic! Will you pussies just kill this airline already??! This is like watching a fish out of water flop around in a death knell. It makes me sick to watch. Someone needs to cut it's head off and filet the remains.

You talk about scope, pay rates, transfer of flying, etc, etc., etc.....all of this is crap!

Scope is a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

Transfer of flying is inevitable as JA realizes what a cancerous ball of pathology he bought in ASA.

ASA managment has a fundamental hatred and distrust of ASA pilots, this will NOT be resolved by a new contract.

I have a V-E-R-Y good source that says Brian L. is looking for another job....what does this tell you???

Have some pride!

ASA pilots are the best in the business, it's just too bad you have to endure all of this. Unfortunately your employer is one of the woarst to ever receive a 121 certificate.

Update your resumes, update your skills out of aviation...and follow your heart. Good luck to all of ASA drivers!!!!!!!!

 

[atrdriver]

What I did say was they posted the last proposal for us to read. I simply want to read the unions side.

And you were wrong about that. They posted the part of their proposal that they wanted you to see. They didn't bother to post all the little hooks contained in their proposal that would basically make most of it meaningless. Remember when Skip said he wanted us to be the highest paid regional pilots in the industry? Then it was suddenly "no net gain". Then it became concessions. Now they are trying to sell us what we already have and calling it progress. And you are falling for it.