An Observation...

[jet newbie]

Does anyone else, especially you non regional pilots, notice a trend on the regional message board? It doens't matter who posts what subject, it always comes back to one of two things. It's either managements fault or the fault of the 800 hour pilots who paid for their jobs. If your job s__ks that bad....QUIT!!! Find something else to do. When you guys are flying along in the FL's do you all just sit there and b_tch about how bad your job s_cks and how you all are getting screwed every day you have to come to work? Well, I think you all need to stop pointing the finger. Management is only going to get away with what YOU let them and the vast majority of you would have jumped at the opportunity to fly for a regional for pennies when you were an 800 hour CFI.

I realize I am probably going to be banned from this site, but I think someone should say it. If the job really stinks and you are underpaid...QUIT!!! Managemt will get the hint soon enough.

 

[trainerjet]

I have repeated over and over on this board just what you have said. That people here refuse to accept responsibility for their own situations. They are constantly pointing fingers looking for someone else to blame. No way could it be their own fault.

But then again, I'll be reminded that I'm just another major airline a$$hole....what could I possibly know. In fact, I'm part of the problem. You know, another one of those they point to and blame.

 

[surplus1]

I have repeated over and over on this board just what you have said. That people here refuse to accept responsibility for their own situations. They are constantly pointing fingers looking for someone else to blame. No way could it be their own fault.

But then again, I'll be reminded that I'm just another major airline a$$hole....what could I possibly know. In fact, I'm part of the problem. You know, another one of those they point to and blame.

You aren't a "major airline a$$hole". You aren't an a$$hole at all. You miss only one thing ___ the bit*ching is no different in the "regional airlines" from the bit*ching in the "major airlines". Major airline pilots blame others for everything that happens to them, just like regional airline pilots do.

The idea that it is "different" is the flaw. It isn't. It comes with the territory and WE are all equally guilty.

 

[Corbon]

Personally, I love my job. Theres nothing else I'd rather do and I think the majority of pilots on here feel that way. But just because I feel privilaged to be part of the airline industry, doesn't mean I'm going to let management run all over me. We are professionals and and assets to our respective companies. Unfortunately our companies tend to forget that. Our CEO has been dishonest and straight up lied to us a number of times. Nobody trust management because of it. The company will violate our contract anytime they think they can get away with it. Sometimes we have to call crewpay to fight for money that is rightfully ours. What, we're supposed to just cave to them without question? "Oh, you need %50 paycuts and we only get 8 days off a month with junior manning and $.45 per diem because we'll go out of business if we don't..ok, sure anything you need boss". Yeah, ok. The majority of airlines and labor groups are always butting heads. It's a constant game of chicken. And your suggestion is to QUIT? Not to stick around and change things but to leave so you can be replaced by someone who is just "happy to be here" and will take it up the arse just to keep their job? Of course you realize this board is dedicated to regional pilots so if you don't want to hear us complaining, stay out. What gives you any credibility anyway? Oh, I see you have a 152 rating....ok, sorry.

 

[NDPILOT]

What gives you any credibility anyway? Oh, I see you have a 152 rating....ok, sorry.

That has nothing to do with anything, I love how people on this board put such a great deal of emphasis on what the "profile" says someone has flown. You know nothing about this guy, maybe he's flown the space shuttle or maybe he's not even a pilot. You have more creditibiltiy because you claim to have flown and ERJ.?. Congratulations, i'll bet you can't even fly a 152 anymore.

Opinions are opinions, his observation is correct, look...people are already bit#hing about something, in this case it happens to be about jetnewbie

 

[jet newbie]

My solution was not to quit...It was to do something OR quit. Don't just sit and gripe. I realize that some are doing something but it seems that the vast majority are just bit_hing for lack of anything better to do. I am glad fortune has steered my career path away from the regionals.

 

[knightflyer]

Personally for me...
I did not jump at the opertunity to fly for pennies on the dollar. While I really like my job, I want to make money while doing it. Not just say thank GOD I'm not flight instucting anymore. It does my bank account no good and the industry no good. I also did not get into this career to settle for $100,000.00 per year.

 

[trainerjet]

The idea that it is "different" is the flaw. It isn't. It comes with the territory and WE are all equally guilty.

I agree with you that it is people in general. It's just that on this board, there seems to be a lot of pilots pointing fingers, usually at one of two places--Mesa or ALPA.

But, you are 100% correct that WE are all equally guilty, although I personally, in my life, have made a concerted effort these last few years to stop looking for others to blame and then to others to solve the problem.

 

[Corbon]

That has nothing to do with anything, I love how people on this board put such a great deal of emphasis on what the "profile" says someone has flown. You know nothing about this guy, maybe he's flown the space shuttle or maybe he's not even a pilot. You have more creditibiltiy because you claim to have flown and ERJ.?. Congratulations, i'll bet you can't even fly a 152 anymore.

So would you let an astronaut stright from NASA or a CFI just out of college come in and negotiate a new contract? Or be your chief pilot? I'm not claiming credibility because of what I've flown but rather because of my experiences at a regional airline. I've seen the good and the bad of the airlines, from being furloughed to preparing for a strike, to finally getting a new TA, and I have a lot left to see. And we will always complain about something. It's just a fact of life. And these days, with concessions, contract carriers vs wholly owned, alter-ego carriers, mainline routes turning into RJ routes, etc. there is more frustration and moral is low at many places. This board is a good way at blowing off some steam and discussing our problems with others sympathetic to our causes. And yes, it is up to us to change things but it can't happen overnight. It's going to take a long time for many of us to turn this trend around. If you don't like what you see, don't read the posts. And I COULD fly a 152 with an instructor.

 

[acaTerry]

Corbon is the only one in this thrwad with any sense and any guts.
Quitting is not the answer. Hiring baby pilots who will literally whore themselves out to fly a jet is not the answer. We have to demand what we have coming.
Those of you who think an airline pilot is worth 25 grand a year...go fly a Baron filled with boxes. Those of you who are not in this game, be quiet. You have no ground to stand on with your worthless opinions on something you know nothing about.
Just because we love WHAT we do does not mean we should settle for cr@p. And finally, just because you have 300 hrs and think you "deserve" a job is not enough. GO EARN IT. Then maybe this group of "professional pilots" will stand up for what is deserved.
My observation: the ones who got the job easy will not fight for what this job deserves.

 

[WMU_Drew]

It’s a good thing Gulfstream does not have a program where management could pay $25,000 to be airline management for 250 hours...I'd bet lots of people would be pretty mad.

Also I wouldn't necessarily blame management for all that is bad but when is enough-enough???

Why does Delta have something like 25 Vice Presidents all making well into six figures? Why do companies pay their CEO's multi million dollar bonuses for loosing astronomical amounts of money? Why do airlines pay for CEO's houses/apartments/cars/etc?

Management of most (large) companies are crooks they are probably cooking the books, and have luckily avoided being caught...but its only a matter of time...

Just my thoughts/observations

 

[46Driver]

Supply and Demand. The fact that many (if not most) look at a regional as a stepping stone to a major. Also, the fact that each airline is in competition with another (business is business) will set up a vicious cycle of reducing airline expenses (of which labor is the biggest cost) and driving down pilot wages in a non-regulated market. Unless there is some type of a guild type payscale (regardless of who you fly for, you make a set wage) or re-regulation of the airline industry (neither of which ascribes to capitalism), I don't see a way around the current situation (with the exception of Chapter 7 for numerous companies reducing the Supply part of the equation.)

 

[FlyinBrian]

You can't escape economics... You can try to "fight" for what you think you deserve, but the truth is as long as someone who is qualified to do your job is willing to do it for less than you are, no employer should be obligated to meet your salary demands.

 

[acaTerry]

but the truth is as long as someone who is qualified to do your job is willing to do it for less than you are, no employer should be obligated to meet your salary demands.

Why not? It is that way in many other jobs.....
Because in other lines of work, there are few people who do not value their skill or even themselves. Today's pilot ranks are being infested with the 18 month wonder boys who have been "given" a job through their academies, etc and so they do not value their skills or selves b/c it came too easy.
I don't have any less respect for someone who came in through an academy than I do for anyone else. But I do take deep issue for the whoring that is going on right now. It just shows that the work ethic is GONE. The guys who paved the way are struggling to keep up what they have fought for. They made it easier to have a decent life for a pilot. Now we have all these newbies pi$$ing on it and helping it go away.

 

[Riddle momma]

I think a lot of good points have come up.

I am not in a position to point fingers and blame (I'm just a cfi), however, I do agree with the original post to some degree. I mean pilots at regionals/majors seem to complain and point fingers at management for everything! Isn't that what unions were made for? Find a middle ground...?

I do believe pilots deserve to be payed the big bucks. The responsability on their shoulders is astronomical. It may be an easy job, but it takes a heck of a lot to get there, much sacrifice and lots of brains.

I do not agree with people being insulted because they settle for low paying regionals jobs, and agree to low paying contracts. Really, I think these pilots would much prefer to get paid more, but when the day is done and the unions vs management battle is over, they got the most they could without compromising jobs (there are exceptions).
Sure, as a pilot you could say "I'm worth more", but then the options are slim: Talk to the union or quit for a hopefully better job. If the better job is out there, then more power to you, but at the present time there really isn't anything.
You could always go back to instructing, but it means job insecurity, no benefits and practically no life. Many pilots have started families, and there is no way they could afford to have such a high level of insecurity in their income.
I live with my freightdog boyfriend who currently makes less than I do instructing, but when winter rolls around, and my flying slows down, I'm gonna be leaching. I couldn't immagine having to do this while trying to raise a kid or paying off a home. Our school loans are enough to deal with!

As far as throwing fists at us "inexperienced" pilots for not knowing anything about management, go easy. Most of us spend enough time here to know some. We're all here to learn something, and look up to you "experienced" pilots with jealousy (to be able to complain about following a C172 on final), but also hopes of learning something and finding just a little hope that we can someday share the FLs with every other "proffesional pilot".

Thanks

 

[jobear]

A couple of points:
1. I really like my present job
2. The pay still stinks (conssesionary contract)
3. The chances of moving up to a MAJOR are slimmer by the day
4. I would like kids before I keel over playing catch with'em


Follow your Contracts, If you don't like what your Union is doing run for the MEC next time around. 85% of us will retire at the Regional level, so get the best deal you can when you can.

Jobear

 

[jet newbie]

A small solution...

Next time you feel like writing a gripe-filled reply on this board....don't. Take the time instead to write a letter to....the company newsletter, the MEC, your chief pilot, even your CEO. Taking the time to preach to the choir on this board, while entertaining, is useless. There are few on this board that would disagree with your gripe-filled post. Maybe your letter to the company will make a difference, maybe it won't. However, I would put money on it doing more good than submitting to this board.

 

[T-Gates]

Re: A small solution...

Next time you feel like writing a gripe-filled reply on this board....don't. Take the time instead to write a letter to....the company newsletter, the MEC, your chief pilot, even your CEO. Taking the time to preach to the choir on this board, while entertaining, is useless. There are few on this board that would disagree with your gripe-filled post. Maybe your letter to the company will make a difference, maybe it won't. However, I would put money on it doing more good than submitting to this board.

Write your CEO saying that your 1st year probation pay is crap....see how well that goes over.

Bitching here is harmless, bitching to the company is suicide.

--03M

 

[acaTerry]

As far as throwing fists at us "inexperienced" pilots for not knowing anything about management, go easy. Most of us spend enough time here to know some. We're all here to learn something, and look up to you "experienced" pilots with jealousy (to be able to complain about following a C172 on final), but also hopes of learning something and finding just a little hope that we can someday share the FLs with every other "proffesional pilot".

Riddle Momma,
We don't mean to sound like we are throwing fists at you all in the 172's. Sorry if it seems that way. We have nothing against you. What gets us all riled up are the people in the 172's, who feel free to give opinions on our stances and tell us to shut up and take it in the butt. What these people do not seem to get in their thick and empty gourds is that
a) we "did our time". We paid our dues and finally got on to the airlines
b) they have NOT been in our position, so they speak out of, well, ignorance
c) it was the hard effort and sacrafice of those earlier in the airline industry that made it possible to better things. The CMR strike is an example. Now, these new people want to let it be taken away just because someone will do it for nothing. This is like the government seizing your house, which you paid for, and selling it to some bum for half price, because that's all they'll pay for it and they really want a house. They'll do anything to have your house, so you have to give it to them.
and d) they play the "airline pilot versus GA pilot" game.

We have nothing against a hard working honest CFI, freight dog, or whatever trying to climb in to the cockpit of an airliner. What we have a problem with is people who are so willing to cheapen our profession in the process.
Good luck. I'm sure you'll get there.

 

[Conquest Driver]

Other Options

I flew for a part 121 commuter airline for 3 years as both a FO and a Capt (was downgraded after a few months) and I can tell you after switching to corporate that the money is the same and the life style is much better. I fly 2-3 days a week and I am paid salary with all expenses put on the company credit card. True, I do sit more in the FBO then on turns in the hub but I am at a different airport every week, which keeps me awake on approach and landing.

It's also very nice not to sit next to some old fart who complains and cries about "you kids with 1500 hours" and how the company/industry is falling apart. Some people seem to think that you need at least 8,000 hours TT to sit right seat in a turboprop/RJ. After flying in both seats I can tell you that the 10% rule applies to both pilots with 10,000 hours and with 1,200 hours, about 1 in 10 would make a better shoe salesman and he/she wouldn't be very good at that. However, the attitude of the older guys who have "seen it all" can be very tiring. My advice to people would be to fly for the commuters for a year or two and then go on to corporate/frax/upper end freight. Those three are much more stable than the airline idustry will ever be and your lifestyle will be the same/better.

Lets face it guys, the days of working for a commuter then moving up to a major in a year or two are past. I don't really consider the majors even an option at this point and unless you really know some one who is connected at SWA, JB, ATA, or Airtran it's probably a realistic outlook. The future is in freight, frax, or coproate. You will never make big six figured money but you will make a good living and have a somewhat stable job. If you can, I would leave the Regionals/commuters, it is great flying but after a couple of years most people are ready for a change, and should in my opinion. Generally(their are exceptions) Staying to long at a commuter/regional is a source of bitterness/anger.

Just my opinon, been known to be wrong.

CD