An Observation...

[WMU_Drew]

It’s a good thing Gulfstream does not have a program where management could pay $25,000 to be airline management for 250 hours...I'd bet lots of people would be pretty mad.

Also I wouldn't necessarily blame management for all that is bad but when is enough-enough???

Why does Delta have something like 25 Vice Presidents all making well into six figures? Why do companies pay their CEO's multi million dollar bonuses for loosing astronomical amounts of money? Why do airlines pay for CEO's houses/apartments/cars/etc?

Management of most (large) companies are crooks they are probably cooking the books, and have luckily avoided being caught...but its only a matter of time...

Just my thoughts/observations

 

[46Driver]

Supply and Demand. The fact that many (if not most) look at a regional as a stepping stone to a major. Also, the fact that each airline is in competition with another (business is business) will set up a vicious cycle of reducing airline expenses (of which labor is the biggest cost) and driving down pilot wages in a non-regulated market. Unless there is some type of a guild type payscale (regardless of who you fly for, you make a set wage) or re-regulation of the airline industry (neither of which ascribes to capitalism), I don't see a way around the current situation (with the exception of Chapter 7 for numerous companies reducing the Supply part of the equation.)

 

[FlyinBrian]

You can't escape economics... You can try to "fight" for what you think you deserve, but the truth is as long as someone who is qualified to do your job is willing to do it for less than you are, no employer should be obligated to meet your salary demands.

 

[acaTerry]

but the truth is as long as someone who is qualified to do your job is willing to do it for less than you are, no employer should be obligated to meet your salary demands.

Why not? It is that way in many other jobs.....
Because in other lines of work, there are few people who do not value their skill or even themselves. Today's pilot ranks are being infested with the 18 month wonder boys who have been "given" a job through their academies, etc and so they do not value their skills or selves b/c it came too easy.
I don't have any less respect for someone who came in through an academy than I do for anyone else. But I do take deep issue for the whoring that is going on right now. It just shows that the work ethic is GONE. The guys who paved the way are struggling to keep up what they have fought for. They made it easier to have a decent life for a pilot. Now we have all these newbies pi$$ing on it and helping it go away.

 

[Riddle momma]

I think a lot of good points have come up.

I am not in a position to point fingers and blame (I'm just a cfi), however, I do agree with the original post to some degree. I mean pilots at regionals/majors seem to complain and point fingers at management for everything! Isn't that what unions were made for? Find a middle ground...?

I do believe pilots deserve to be payed the big bucks. The responsability on their shoulders is astronomical. It may be an easy job, but it takes a heck of a lot to get there, much sacrifice and lots of brains.

I do not agree with people being insulted because they settle for low paying regionals jobs, and agree to low paying contracts. Really, I think these pilots would much prefer to get paid more, but when the day is done and the unions vs management battle is over, they got the most they could without compromising jobs (there are exceptions).
Sure, as a pilot you could say "I'm worth more", but then the options are slim: Talk to the union or quit for a hopefully better job. If the better job is out there, then more power to you, but at the present time there really isn't anything.
You could always go back to instructing, but it means job insecurity, no benefits and practically no life. Many pilots have started families, and there is no way they could afford to have such a high level of insecurity in their income.
I live with my freightdog boyfriend who currently makes less than I do instructing, but when winter rolls around, and my flying slows down, I'm gonna be leaching. I couldn't immagine having to do this while trying to raise a kid or paying off a home. Our school loans are enough to deal with!

As far as throwing fists at us "inexperienced" pilots for not knowing anything about management, go easy. Most of us spend enough time here to know some. We're all here to learn something, and look up to you "experienced" pilots with jealousy (to be able to complain about following a C172 on final), but also hopes of learning something and finding just a little hope that we can someday share the FLs with every other "proffesional pilot".

Thanks

 

[jobear]

A couple of points:
1. I really like my present job
2. The pay still stinks (conssesionary contract)
3. The chances of moving up to a MAJOR are slimmer by the day
4. I would like kids before I keel over playing catch with'em


Follow your Contracts, If you don't like what your Union is doing run for the MEC next time around. 85% of us will retire at the Regional level, so get the best deal you can when you can.

Jobear

 

[jet newbie]

A small solution...

Next time you feel like writing a gripe-filled reply on this board....don't. Take the time instead to write a letter to....the company newsletter, the MEC, your chief pilot, even your CEO. Taking the time to preach to the choir on this board, while entertaining, is useless. There are few on this board that would disagree with your gripe-filled post. Maybe your letter to the company will make a difference, maybe it won't. However, I would put money on it doing more good than submitting to this board.

 

[T-Gates]

Re: A small solution...

Next time you feel like writing a gripe-filled reply on this board....don't. Take the time instead to write a letter to....the company newsletter, the MEC, your chief pilot, even your CEO. Taking the time to preach to the choir on this board, while entertaining, is useless. There are few on this board that would disagree with your gripe-filled post. Maybe your letter to the company will make a difference, maybe it won't. However, I would put money on it doing more good than submitting to this board.

Write your CEO saying that your 1st year probation pay is crap....see how well that goes over.

Bitching here is harmless, bitching to the company is suicide.

--03M

 

[acaTerry]

As far as throwing fists at us "inexperienced" pilots for not knowing anything about management, go easy. Most of us spend enough time here to know some. We're all here to learn something, and look up to you "experienced" pilots with jealousy (to be able to complain about following a C172 on final), but also hopes of learning something and finding just a little hope that we can someday share the FLs with every other "proffesional pilot".

Riddle Momma,
We don't mean to sound like we are throwing fists at you all in the 172's. Sorry if it seems that way. We have nothing against you. What gets us all riled up are the people in the 172's, who feel free to give opinions on our stances and tell us to shut up and take it in the butt. What these people do not seem to get in their thick and empty gourds is that
a) we "did our time". We paid our dues and finally got on to the airlines
b) they have NOT been in our position, so they speak out of, well, ignorance
c) it was the hard effort and sacrafice of those earlier in the airline industry that made it possible to better things. The CMR strike is an example. Now, these new people want to let it be taken away just because someone will do it for nothing. This is like the government seizing your house, which you paid for, and selling it to some bum for half price, because that's all they'll pay for it and they really want a house. They'll do anything to have your house, so you have to give it to them.
and d) they play the "airline pilot versus GA pilot" game.

We have nothing against a hard working honest CFI, freight dog, or whatever trying to climb in to the cockpit of an airliner. What we have a problem with is people who are so willing to cheapen our profession in the process.
Good luck. I'm sure you'll get there.

 

[Conquest Driver]

Other Options

I flew for a part 121 commuter airline for 3 years as both a FO and a Capt (was downgraded after a few months) and I can tell you after switching to corporate that the money is the same and the life style is much better. I fly 2-3 days a week and I am paid salary with all expenses put on the company credit card. True, I do sit more in the FBO then on turns in the hub but I am at a different airport every week, which keeps me awake on approach and landing.

It's also very nice not to sit next to some old fart who complains and cries about "you kids with 1500 hours" and how the company/industry is falling apart. Some people seem to think that you need at least 8,000 hours TT to sit right seat in a turboprop/RJ. After flying in both seats I can tell you that the 10% rule applies to both pilots with 10,000 hours and with 1,200 hours, about 1 in 10 would make a better shoe salesman and he/she wouldn't be very good at that. However, the attitude of the older guys who have "seen it all" can be very tiring. My advice to people would be to fly for the commuters for a year or two and then go on to corporate/frax/upper end freight. Those three are much more stable than the airline idustry will ever be and your lifestyle will be the same/better.

Lets face it guys, the days of working for a commuter then moving up to a major in a year or two are past. I don't really consider the majors even an option at this point and unless you really know some one who is connected at SWA, JB, ATA, or Airtran it's probably a realistic outlook. The future is in freight, frax, or coproate. You will never make big six figured money but you will make a good living and have a somewhat stable job. If you can, I would leave the Regionals/commuters, it is great flying but after a couple of years most people are ready for a change, and should in my opinion. Generally(their are exceptions) Staying to long at a commuter/regional is a source of bitterness/anger.

Just my opinon, been known to be wrong.

CD