AMR's Counter to APA

[surplus1]

Surplus, I cannot find any reference to DOH in any of my posts.

My apologies, it was not you it was "laxembfo" (above) and I made the error of transposing the thought. Sorry.

The seniority issue should be negotiated only AFTER the proper protectional language is in ANY agreement. You are right though. I've compared this agreement to our current flow-thru and it is just the promise of an extension, provided we sign over our protections. In fact nothing really changes for AMR but the "owners" of the flying we now do (no loss for them). The APA gets SOME gain by providing temporary jobs, paychecks and health care for their junior pilots in "down" times like now.

I think you're right on target with the seniority issue and pretty much on target with the rest but, as I see it, the whole is even worse than that.

We get ?

A kinda, maybe, we'll see, promise, IF things recover in the future.

IMO, it is not so much what you don't get as it is what you would lose. The APA proposal is essentially a method of transferring Eagle jet flying to AA pilots, at the expense of Eagle pilots. I have argued from day one that that is their intent. That intent is consistent with the efforts of ALL mainline pilot groups.

If that proposal were implemented you would lose all your 70-seat jets and the captain seats in most if not all of your other jets. As your (AE) pilots are progressively displaced to lesser positions while AA pilots take their seats, the "furloughed" will ultimately wind up being at Eagle.

It is almost a given that the Company will NOT agree to a system that effectively places the mainline cost structure at Eagle. Therefore, once you have agreed to the subterfuge, the APA will simply authorize a new "B scale" for you (an their own "juniors") just as they did before. Ultimately you will have given up nearly everything, including a voice in your own affairs, in exchange for little or nothing. It's no skin off the AA pilot's back but it's a very bad deal for AE pilots.

APA may not be ALPA but it this respect, it follows the ALPA policy de jure, i.e., transfer as much of the regional aircraft and flying to the mainline as you possibly can. If that doesn't work, find a way to put mainline pilots into the regional cockpits (Jets for Jobs - AAA) with super seniority. As soon as you have enough on the regional list, they will take over the MEC and vote the rest of the regional pilots out of their jobs. If that still doesn't work, find a way to create a single MEC (CAL/CALEX) that is always controlled by the mainline group. Then you can write all the predatory scope you want and they will not be able to counter it. Next, offer them the flow-through carrot. The seniors that might benefit directly control the regional MEC's and may buy it, thereby contributing to the creation of furlough protection for the "real" pilots. It will also help to silence the objections to predatory scope (the true and principal objective of flow-through). Finally, if all of the above fail, continue the effort to unilaterally "Scope" them out of existence, little by little (DAL/AWA/NWA/UAL).

It's a good plan and it is designed to take full advantage of the naivete of young pilots and the known desire to fly heavy iron for a "major airline". Generally, they are so awed by the glitter of mainline gold, that they fail to see it is "fools gold" and a Trojan Horse in their midst. It's been working well until a group of Comair pilots had the cojones to say HELL NO! That's why the powers that be hate our guts.

Again to ALL, it is absurd to think we should "fall on our swords" to look out for the best interest of others.

You are 100% correct! Not one of the "others" would fall on his sword for your interests. In fact the exact opposite has already been demonstrated more than once.

Although the 16-year Eagle contract has MANY deficiencies, it does have something MOST other regional contracts don't have.

SCOPE AND SUCCESORSHIP provisions.

One should note that even AMR has recognized that these provisions in our CBA (as evidenced by the stipulations in the beginning of their conter-proposal) cannot be unilaterally disregarded.

Thankfully, that means that ANY agreement MUST be acceptable to our MEC and pilot group.

Hopefully you can choose leaders that will not abdicate your few rights by falling victim to the "promises" of external politicians who do not have your best interests as a concern and give away those rights, without a vote from the rank and file. The integrity of your elected leadership is paramount. Choose wisely.

I (and most) Eagle pilots think that it still is in the best interest of ALL three parties (AMR, APA and the pilots of Eagle) that "one list" become a reality.

While I would agree with that statement, the method by which "one list" is accomplished is the key to its value, and by that I do NOT mean how you finally integrate seniority. Relinguishing your flying to the APA is not, IMO, the achievement of one list, no matter what they call it. That is why I argue that the APA proposal was NEVER a real "one list" proposal.

You need a clause that guarantees that not one Eagle pilot will be displaced from his current position or seat as a consequence of the consolidation. Future vacancies can then be up for grabs based on whatever seniority you ultimately agree to.

The APA, AMR and ALPA have to sit down and negotiate this issue TOGETHER.

As long as we are left out, there is little hope to expect us to agree to anything because any two-sided agreement will most likely not meet our minimum requirements.

Please allow me to suggest a slight modification to that idea. If the AA pilots (APA) and the AE pilots can first sit together and agree to whatever proposal will be negotiated with AMR, you've got it. It is no accident that I omitted ALPA from that. While ALPA is the AE union and has to be included, BEFORE you do that you must be absolutely certain that the AE pilot representatives will NOT be influenced by ALPA's agenda and that they have the experience and qualifications to hold their own in negotiations. Remember, ALPA's agenda (on this issue) is no different than the APA's agenda. If given the chance, IMO, the ALPA will forego the interests of AE pilots to further its own agenda. In other words, cover your six.

What would that mean to us if we agreed to any proposals like these, now ? NO upgrades or ANY benefit to US for a long time with the strong potetial to be the future "sacrificial lambs".

Regardless of the APA's response to AMR's counter-proposal, we can't accept this. Unless Carty is bluffing, I don't see how this issue will be resolved within his time frame.

If you accept the concept advanced by the APA, let alone the details, you will indeed become the "sacrificial lambs". That is already their not so thinly veiled objective.

There is perhaps one key element that I think you can use to determine the true intent of the APA and for that matter the ALPA, in a proposal such as this. If and when the other pilot group invites your participation in the process of developing a suitable proposal before it is presented AND, if and when the mainline pilots give your representatives a seat at the table with the Company (with veto power), while this sole element is negotiated, you will know then and only then, that they are acting and bargaining in good faith with respect to your interests.

As long as THEY are willing to determine what is best for YOU, without your participation and consent, you don't have a deal worth taking.

To date, all you have from the APA is an allegation that they have experienced the equivalent of a "jail house conversion". The content of their proposal makes it clear to me that religion (with regard to this issue) is as removed from their thinking as it ever was. Their alleged conversion to a one-list love in with the Eagle pilots is bogus.

Politics is a fascinating avocation and as dirty as ever.

 

[eaglefly]

Surplus, I can't argue with a majority of what you say.

Our current MEC is comprised of mainly mid-seniority pilots, so any capitulation that would harm the pilot group would injure them personally sooner rather than later, so there is some personal interest on their end.

We only have protections to what we CURRENTLY fly. If AMR and the APA come up with a deal that does not affect our current operations (Mid Atlantic/U), I believe we would be powerless to stop it, so their is SOME incentive for our pilot groups to come together on the outsourcing issue for the benefit of all (AMR too).

However, if given a choice between a "mainline slanted" agreement and no agreement, most here would prefer to remain solo.

PROTECTIONS ARE A MUST.

In fact, there would have to be DETAILED language (and examples) to insure that protection (as well as true understanding by ALL sides).

It would seem that time would be required. The question is, how willing is AMR to use the BK process and how soon ?

I'm confident that neither the APA, AMR nor ALPA national will be capable of strong-arming us.

I wonder how ALPA national feels about giving up 2 million in annual dues money ?

Do you think they're going to be gung-ho about us agreeing to transfer our operations AND REPRESENTAION to the APA ?

Like it or not, ALPA is a business and a flip-side of the same coin as airline managment.

We are very experienced in making bad decisions and have learned from our mistakes trusting others to play fair.

NO MORE.

AMR, APA or ALPA national MAY try to stab us in the back.

This time were not going to hand anyone the knife.

 

[TWA Dude]

Just my perspectives. Of course the APA wants all 70 seat+ jet flying, but understand that from their point of view Eagle is flying jets because the APA relaxed it's scope. And it's now biting them in the tuchus. Of course everyone's getting bitten now. There's been a shake-up on the APA negotiating committee and it now seems ready to make some kind of concessions, BUT, they'll want something in return. Of course AMR just wants to avoid Chap 11, if that's possible.

I don't blame the Eagle pilots for not caring for either One List proposal and I fully support your right to negotiate for the best deals you can. But I wish to emphasize that only AMR actually owns the flying. Neither side is entitled to anything. Many AA pilots believe that they're entitled to industry-leading pay but I say you get what you can negotiate for and it's a factor of leverage rather than entitlement. The TWA/AA integration has tought me an awful lot about exactly who deserves what: nobody deserves anything! Pilots have gotten really spoiled in the last ten years and we think all good things should come to us and not to the other guys. Too bad that's not the way things work.

As far as military pilots jumping into a unified list, I have no opinion on it but I'll point out that it was AMR that first voiced it's objection to any system that would keep them from going straight to AA.

Right now AMR is heading for Chap 11. Whether it gets there or not remains to be seen but if it does I can guarantee that Eagle will grow and AA will shrink. In fact, that'll probably happen regardless.

Good luck to all of us.

 

[Draginass]

The salient point to all of this is what power the individual groups have to influence the situation. APA has scope (which AMR continues to partially violate). What AE ALPA has is unclear. With a BK and contract abrogation (assuming worst case), there are some very nasty scenarios that could play themselves out, for ALL parties involved . . . including the company.

 

[eaglefly]

It should also be noted that if one reads AMR's counter-proposal, AMR itself indicates that the agreement is "contingent on APA achieving voluntary agreement with ALPA to assume commuter flying currently covered by Eagle Scope clause".

Outside of bankruptcy, AMR has just reaffirmed our scope rights and protections by admission of not only existance but agreement as to its validity.

For them to violate it and subsequently argue to an arbitrator that it doesn't exist is contrary to what they have just admitted.

Now, in a chapter 11 scenario, AMR would have to convince a judge that having another pilot group take over our flying is necessary for the airlines survival and reemergence from chapter 11.

That would involve replacing the current pilots flying with new pilots to do the same work. That is one thing AMR is trying to avoid - unnecessary training cycles.

Barring an agreement that offers our pilots the necessary protections, we're better off taking our chances in BK and depending on the economics of both the situation and the desirable (to ANY airline managment) economic aspects of our long-term contract.

Being the "cheap labor" all of a sudden does have a benefit : Better Job security.

...and job security is worth a lot these days.

I realize even the best scenario won't have me at mainline for 6-10 years. At worst never.

What kind of job will be waiting ?

More than likely, one that pays at least 1/3 less, has me working as much as I do now and has little or no pension.

What about a 5-year Eagle F/O ?

Forget it.

The airline piloting profession is crumbling before our eyes. The new kids in flight school now will come to a whole new industry.

I wish it weren't true.

 

[Draginass]

It's not a question of what AMR says during a negotiation. They'd do a bat-turn on AE (or APA) in a heartbeat if they saw an advantage in it. It's a question of what would hold up in court, and I'm not convinced that AE's scope would hold up within the corporation. With AMR now outsourcing your jobs and violating both AE scope and APA ASMs, do you really think AMR really cares about AE ALPA's interestes in a corporate integration? Heck, Carty didn't even show up for initial "engagement" meeting with his unions. Probably too busy meeting with the lawyers trying to kill the RLA and BK planners.

Like I said before, I think it's all a moot point anyway. AMR isn't really interested in one-list. They're interested in turning mainline in to AE, and if they get their way, there won't be any reason to even go to a "mainline" anyway. Maybe someone would like to fly 8 hour international all-nighters for commuter compensation, but not me.

 

[eaglefly]

Which is all the more reason to "sit this one out" for the time being. Most here see the current proposals as nothing but an agreement to make our highest paying seats (and our only halfway decent paying seats) as a dumping ground for junior mainline furloughees to make ends meet until mainline recall.

It would be in AMR's nature to disregard the provisions of our contract, but to keep it means you have to convince an arbitrator or judge. In fact, this practice has become so rampant at AMR, that everyone is beginning to believe that simply because they take that initial approach that it means it will automatically stand the test of arbitration and there are no contractual provisions that count anymore.

Not so. It just takes time for the system to work.

It is believed that our greivance regarding the 14 145's to TSA has been decided. Lets see what an arbitrator says about that.

He will either say 1.) yes, a violation - you must provide proof of sale (ouch !) or transfer pilots with airplanes. Or, 2.) No violation, have a nice day.

If #1 is the outcome, it will make AMR realize that they can't blindly steamroll over everything in every contract and the hopefully will realize responsible negotiation is the only long term solution. If #2 is the outcome than they can get even more aggresive in an effort to "push the boundaries" of the contracts that limit the scope of their actions.

You're right I don't think AMR really wants one-list. In fact the president of Eagle has sent a letter to our pilot group that seems to imply that if we accept it, it would be bad for our pilots.

Our MEC is even confused by the mixed messages we're receiving. It's almost like AMR has internally reversed itself AFTER submitting their counter-proposal.

I don't think Carty will slash mainline wages by more than 1/3 and pensions are hard to predict, but the biggest changes will be productivity. In talking to several (7) of my friends at AA the least amount of days worked in December was 6 (28 hours), the most 12 (63 hours).

The average (approx.) SWA pilot flys 75-80 hours. My average is about 83 hours (before cancellations).

If my hourly rate is say 84.00 per hour (for a 145) and I fly 83 hours a month and I convert that to the 64 hour AA cap, that comes out to almost a 109.00 per hour. I just have to work more to make it (15 days off per month). AA pay RATES may not change much (some), but it looks as though you'll have to work a lot more to make the same. That in turn saves AMR money by trimming pilots.

AA will become similar to the rest of the industry soon. He can get that by agreement or by changing the RLA or in a last ditch effort to maintain competetivness, the BK process.


Iraq and a force majuere opportunity may provide additional opportunity in the near-term to stem some bleeding. It would be crazy to think that Carty won't take advantage of it.

 

[Draginass]

I hope the TSA & CHQ outsourcing issue does get resolved in favor of AE and the APA (ASM grievance). At least that will be a moral victory, hollow as it will become.

Of course, we don't know what's been discussed in the secret meeting of the corporation and among the prime players in the Airline Transport Association (ATA). However, with a war starting next month, I think force majuere will be invoked immediately with probably 1000 more mainline AA furloughes (over those already announced) and ignoring of ASM caps . . . meaning wholesale transfer of mainline routes to AE and outsourcers like TSA and CHQ. It's also highly possible that AA will elect to enter BK early creating a fait accompli for dictation of terms to all union groups, including AE.

I hope I'm wrong. We shall see.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus, I can't argue with a majority of what you say.

Thanks. I think we're on the same frequency; I too agree with most of wha you have said, just minor differences.

We only have protections to what we CURRENTLY fly. If AMR and the APA come up with a deal that does not affect our current operations (Mid Atlantic/U), I believe we would be powerless to stop it, so their is SOME incentive for our pilot groups to come together on the outsourcing issue for the benefit of all (AMR too).

I think you are right about this too. As you think about it keep in mind that the Mid Atlantic scheme is really a creation of the ALPA which had zero compunction about creating a new
"subsidiary/alter ego" for the express purpose of excluding the WO's at U and securing the jobs for mainline pilots. Additionally, that "agreement" virtually guarantees additional "outsourcing" that ALPA had previously claimed it was dead set against.

Of course the new outsourcing comes with 50% or more of the jobs going to mainline pilots (which makes it OK, I guess) who will enjoy super seniority and better pay at the "receiving carrier", a procedure that effectively abrogates the contracts and seniory of regional pilots that can be coerced into accepting it. All this without batting an eye while the President of the ALPA praises the deal. In fact there has been no "deal" for the affected regional pilot groups were once more excluded from the process.

At CHQ, where the pilots rejected the concept it has simply resulted in the creation of a new alter ego, which apparently doesn't bother ALPA at all, since it affects no "mainline" group. The hue and cry against the alter ego Freedom will now die as an apparent result of the Mesa TA and, of course, includes the "acceptance of Jets for Jobs" by the Mesa pilots. All very convenient.

However, if given a choice between a "mainline slanted" agreement and no agreement, most here would prefer to remain solo.

Bravo! I admire your stand and support your defense of the rights of AE pilots. I'm not anti-mainline and certainly not anti-AA pilots (we are more than greatful for the outstanding support received from them during our strike), I just feel that whatever agreements are reached they must be fair to both sides. They should take nothing from you (in the present) and you should take nothing from them (in the present). If you choose to mutually share in the future, that would be a breakthrough ... even if AMR never agrees.

I'm confident that neither the APA, AMR nor ALPA national will be capable of strong-arming us.

I pray that you are correct. I've no intention to criticize or offend, but I can't help but remember how effective the ALPA was in the strong-arm tactic when your current contract was originally negotiated and "ratified" by an unprecedented and coercive procedure. I want very much to share your confidence, but I am cautiously optimistic.

I wonder how ALPA national feels about giving up 2 million in annual dues money ?

Do you think they're going to be gung-ho about us agreeing to transfer our operations AND REPRESENTAION to the APA ?

Candidly I do not think that the potential loss of Eagle's dues money carries much weight with ALPA national. Keep in mind that while the campaign to promte a merger with the APA may be temporarily on the back burner, it remains the ALPA's prime directive. The gains that would result to ALPA from a merger with the APA makes concerns about what happens at Eagle moot. You'll be written off without the slightest remorse. Just be cautious, lest you wake up one morning an learn that it's a done deal and you aren't included. Don't forget what just happened to ALG/PDT/PSA, etc. The "benefits" to ALPA's principals were far less than the potential bonanza of a merger with the APA.

I wish you guys the very best. You may not have many "friends" among the great powers, but among the little people like us, you do.

 

[jetexas]

AMR offers to merge seniority lists
Move would give carrier more flexibility in use of regional jets

01/24/2003

By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News

AMR Corp. has offered to combine the seniority lists between American Airlines and its regional affiliate, American Eagle, a change American pilots have wanted for years.

The proposal – part of ongoing contract talks between the Fort Worth-based carrier and the Allied Pilots Association – would represent a significant change in how AMR operates.

In exchange for combining the seniority lists, AMR would gain far more flexibility in using its fleet of regional jets and turboprop planes. The current contract limits how many AMR can use if American pilots are furloughed.

Under the proposal, AMR's regional jet fleet could grow to as many as 448 aircraft from its current 286. That's significant because the airline believes the smaller regional jets can make more money in the difficult economy than its larger jets on many routes.

One pilots' union official said the combining of the seniority lists was an encouraging start.

"This is our proposal – this was our initiative," said Steve Blankenship, chair of the communications committee for APA. "Our negotiating committee will be in the process of evaluating the proposal."

Eagle's pilots' union officials also saw the proposal as noteworthy.

"The fact that AMR wants to talk about combining the airlines is significant because it's a new position for them," said James Magee, a spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association chapter representing the Eagle pilots.

AMR would only confirm that talks are continuing.

"American Airlines and the APA have been in negotiations for some time on scope issues and have exchanged proposals," said Bruce Hicks, a spokesman for the airline.

The APA represents 13,000 pilots at American Airlines. Of those, 1,015 are currently on furlough.

At Eagle, the Air Line Pilots Association represents 2,100 pilots, about 250 of whom are on furlough. Under the proposal from AMR, the APA would negotiate with ALPA to settle a host of issues related to merging the lists.

If the proposal were to become part of a ratified contract, pilots from Eagle could, in theory, "flow" through the seniority list, giving them the chance to fly American's larger planes as they gained seniority.

Previously, AMR executives have strongly opposed integration of the mainline carrier and its regional partner, saying it would be too costly.

Combining the seniority lists might not add much cost to AMR. Eagle's lower contract wage rates would stay in place, for example.

However, the proposal would accomplish a long-held goal of APA: to have all flying done by AMR under one group of pilots.

A pilot's career is based on his seniority; his or her pay, job and job security are linked directly to how long they've been at a particular airline. Seniority isn't portable. Once a pilot chooses to work for one airline, rarely will that person leave to fly for another because they start at the bottom of a seniority list.

APA says AMR can solve its revenue problems by completely merging Eagle into American, cutting out the extra layer of administration and creating a more nimble airline that can fly any type of aircraft anywhere without contract limitations currently in place.

The airline has said before that it can't run Eagle profitably using American contract rates and work rules.

AMR reported a $529 million fourth-quarter loss and a $3.5 billion year-end loss on Wednesday, and said its losses were "unsustainable."

Its shares closed down 11 cents to $3.66 on Thursday.

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