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AMR's Counter to APA

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It has much of what the APA initially proposed. AMR has modified the original proposal to keep the Eagle cost structure.

Some benefit to AMR.
Some benefit to APA.
VERY LITTLE benefit to the pilots of Eagle.

For all intents and purposes, it is an extention of the CURRENT flow-thru (at even a more reduced rate). It puts us AT GREAT RISK once we relinquish OUR flying.

Their is NO protective language for the Eagle pilots. We would be at the whim of the APA in the future.

BEFORE seniority can be discussed, there has to be IRON CLAD protections for us. Only AFTER a solid foundation is built can the issue of seniority be discussed.

The bottom line :

This "counter-proposal" is DOA with our pilot group.
 
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Hi!

A big thing here which is bad for AA/Eagle pilots is that AA could farm out it's commuter flying to anyone (as it is now with TSA/Chatauqua and Corporate).

These Scope clauses were a disaster. To prevent cheap-wage pilots from flying AA passengers (or anyone else), the mainline line has to own ALL the aircraft, and the pilots of those aircraft have to ALL be mainline pilots, as I believe the original APA proposal suggested.

AA would have aircraft ranging in size from 19 seats to a 747/777, and all the pilots flying would be AA pilots. There would be no other airlines flying AA pax.

Everyone could be on the same pay scale, also. Each crewmember would get the same % of the seat-mile revenue for the airplane. Obviously, a 777 FO would make a lot more than a Jetstream 32 FO, because the 777 has a lot more seat miles for AA than the 32 does.

What do U think of this idea?

Cliff
GRB
 
Eaglefly,

Well, I am much relieved that you have seen these "proposals" and counter proposals for what they really are. Here's hoping that a majority of Eagle pilots share your views.

Only one thing you said bothers me a little and that's your reference to DOH. Candidly, I think that's a bit unrealistic. However, I quite agree that the present proposals are not "one list" and represent grave danger for the Eagle pilots.

Flow-throughs of the varieties we've seen to date are of no benefit to regional pilots, excepting a few of the most senior and come at the expense of the majority of pilots on the regional list. Unless that wheel is reinvented, flow throughs should be burned and buried with the rest of the garbage.

They way I see it, the flaw in the APA concept is prevalent in all of the "proposals" generated in mainline back rooms. Until the pilots of both the mainline and regional group sit down together and reach agreement on what they want to do and how they want to do it, unilateral proposals from either side are a waste of time. Neither group can unilaterally decide for the other. Nothing should ever be presented to management until there is agreement between the pilot groups. In this, like all the others to date, the cart is before the horse. That makes buggy riding impossible.

Caveat Emptor.
 
Just confirming what Seagle said. I heard on the CBS news tonight that AMR has hired bankruptcy attorneys, so has Delta, Continental and America West (according to the report).

The report said AMR lost 3.5 billion in '02
 
response

This was not a counter, this was a response or answer. They had to reply so they did. This was just above an empty envelope.
 
Somewhere between DOH and a Staple is the hourly rate integration. Sounds a lot more fair to me yet I see very little of it on these boards.

Senior guys at the regional don't instantly get hind tit in pay as a stapled FO in the new job, probably will keep seniority enough to at least stay CA in the RJ, and gain the opportunity to move up in equipment over time which they never had.

Junior folks at the major (due to an hourly rate that's higher than all but the most senior regional pilots) won't lose much above them with very few getting bumped down, and even if they do it would be to the left seat of the RJ. He gains a little furlough protection and an opportunity to bid better trips in smaller equipment.

Junior guys at the regional would be at the bottom no matter what so it just saves them from having to repeat the hiring process in order to get bigger equip/higher wage opportunity.

Senior guys at the Majors wouldn't care because it wouldn't affect them anyway - same as always :D

The only sticking point is current furloughees but the wage level integration works there, too. If you have a job now you keep it, but as openings occur they get filled by recalls back into their previous wage level. (MD-88 FO or RJ CA whichever they want to bid) After all the recalls new hires go to the back of the bus. Start out as a SAAB FO and retire 35 years later as #1 in the 777. (3 ex-wives and a hairpiece optional)

Am I missing something on this one?
 
AA Furlough pilot-Eagle fo gets the bott

No way a FURLOUGH AA PILOT is accuring "0" that's zero seniority while he is fuloughed. As you put it a "regional fo gets the bottom NO WAY, a FURLOUGHED AA PILOT get the bottom. go ahead sell EAGLE it would be the greatest thing that ever happened and then AA pilots have no one to save them, and by the way EAGLE stills dosen't make money, and the moon is still made of cheese, you might need some wine soon...
 
Surplus, I cannot find any reference to DOH in any of my posts.

The seniority issue should be negotiated only AFTER the proper protectional language is in ANY agreement. You are right though. I've compared this agreement to our current flow-thru and it is just the promise of an extension, provided we sign over our protections. In fact nothing really changes for AMR but the "owners" of the flying we now do (no loss for them). The APA gets SOME gain by providing temporary jobs, paychecks and health care for their junior pilots in "down" times like now.

We get ?

A kinda, maybe, we'll see, promise, IF things recover in the future.

Again to ALL, it is absurd to think we should "fall on our swords" to look out for the best interest of others.

Although the 16-year Eagle contract has MANY deficiencies, it does have something MOST other regional contracts don't have.

SCOPE AND SUCCESORSHIP provisions.

One should note that even AMR has recognized that these provisions in our CBA (as evidenced by the stipulations in the beginning of their conter-proposal) cannot be unilaterally disregarded.

Thankfully, that means that ANY agreement MUST be acceptable to our MEC and pilot group.

I (and most) Eagle pilots think that it still is in the best interest of ALL three parties (AMR, APA and the pilots of Eagle) that "one list" become a reality.

How to acheive that ?

The APA, AMR and ALPA have to sit down and negotiate this issue TOGETHER.

As long as we are left out, there is little hope to expect us to agree to anything because any two-sided agreement will most likely not meet our minimum requirements.

Carty is looking at 4-6 weeks. That would mean THIS ISSUE in addition to the inevitable mainline sacrifices will have to be finalized by the end of February.

Why does Carty want more "efficient" work rules from the APA ?

To do less with more.

Translation : More mainline pilot furloughs.

A lot.

If he can't get it voluntarily, it will inevitably lead to getting it involintarily through the BK process.

What would that mean to us if we agreed to any proposals like these, now ?

NO upgrades or ANY benefit to US for a long time with the strong potetial to be the future "sacrificial lambs".

Regardless of the APA's response to AMR's counter-proposal, we can't accept this. Unless Carty is bluffing, I don't see how this issue will be resolved within his time frame.

tic-toc-tic-toc-tic-toc.
 
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It's looking more and more like these integration talks are a diversion. It may be that AMR's real agenda is to work towards an early BK and slow-leak deep concessions from mainline. I think they're going to the US Air school of BK. That also probably means that they'll continue to violate APA's and AE ALPA's scope.
 
I too agree this "propasal" will not fly with the eagle pilots. The main sticking point is the fact that American will still be able to hire into mainline above eagle and then in a downturn that pilot will be able to bump down an eagle pilot that may have been with Eagle for many years. As an example: I as 3.5 yr FO will not upgrade for about another 1.5 yrs. Then I get a seniority number at AA and have to wait until AA starts hiring (if it ever) and then have to wait till all the eagle pilots senior to me flow thru. In the mean time AA will be hiring all their "special pilots" also. So it may take at the very least 10 to 15 years before I get to the "big leagues". Why the hell would we vote for this. We are potentially giving our jobs away for very little return. End all the bullsh*t and make it truly one airline with no segregation. Eagle pilots would accept a staple with Job protections for all on the property...its that simple.
 

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