American pilots weren’t allowed to strike, so instead they did something clever

[airgator]

IT'S A NAV LIGHT! You're the captain, and you're gonna time out and go to the hotel and strand 100+ pax, YGTBSM.

 

[scoreboardII]

Yes.

The pilots are not running the airline anymore, good for them, or are you on managements side?

 

[UnstableAviator]

Trying to have a reasonable discussion about the schizophrenic world in which we operate is pretty much impossible. EVERY airplane for EVERY departure has something that can be written up. Just like the FAA likes to do a C-check at the gate and begin discovering items most pilots rarely even notice.

If I "just happen" to discover the NAV light is out 1 minute prior to departure then the call goes in, the flight goes late. Or if a yoke boot snap is broken, start/stop selector knob slightly loose, etc etc. There will always be discretion on the part of the PIC.

 

[Quimby]

IT'S A NAV LIGHT! You're the captain, and you're gonna time out and go to the hotel and strand 100+ pax, YGTBSM.

Are you yelling?

 

[PSL]

Airgator:

You have perfectly described the issue we run into on a daily basis. We (Pilots/FEs) are not allowed to use our discretion when there is a procedure in place to deal with the exact issue you mentioned. The first casualty of specificity in aviation is reasonableness. When you fly under any part of the 14 CFR (91,121, 135, etc) there are approved procedures in place that hold the DOM (Director of Maintenance), PIC and Dispatcher (if applicable) accountable. The FAA usually shows no mercy for willfully operating in contravention to an approved maintenance / flight ops procedure. And can you blame the FAA ? They are held accountable to the DOT, Congress and the POTUS.

Now back to you example, the burned out NAV light. Will it bring down the airplane or contribute to a collision ? I doubt it but unless the MEL gives relief for it being out, the airplane is not moving with my signature on the Release without me being able to look the FAA and my boss in the eye and state that I believe the aircraft is airworthy.

What we do in the civilian world is not combat flying. It is elective air transportation. When weapons are pointed at the aircraft, then the priorities change. Until then, I will follow the rules/regs to the best of my ability while I am entrusted with the safety of the PAX, fellow crew and people on the ground.

 

[GogglesPisano]

IT'S A NAV LIGHT! You're the captain, and you're gonna time out and go to the hotel and strand 100+ pax, YGTBSM.

I'm sure the Feds, and your DO when he is caught in the middle, will be completely understanding.

 

[AA717driver]

IT'S A NAV LIGHT! You're the captain, and you're gonna time out and go to the hotel and strand 100+ pax, YGTBSM.

Ignore it, get caught and the Feds (with the help and full cooperation of the company) prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law.

Why? Because you demonsrtated a disregard for the FAR's and the safety of your passengers. The Fed needs a promotion and the company needs a hostage. They both tacitly thank you for delivering your a$$ on a silver platter.

This is a no brainer in today's litigious world. In 1985, I wouldn't have thought twice about calling it "extremely dim" and carrying on. Now, NFW.

TC

 

[Busdriver320]

And yet under a mitt Romney administration, the economy does better, more people are able to fly to Disneyland, your company does better, you upgrade quicker, you get a better contract, you make more $$$, you are able to buy Melvin the GI Joe with the kungfu grip, Momma is happy, she eats more, gets fat, you lose interest, knock up the babysitter, marry her, dump Momma and live happily ever after.
Ironic, eh?

This is the thinking in middle class America that will ultimately doom middle class Americans. Look at Romney's (and his ilk) history. They hate unions, they outsource jobs, they lower wages. Get a clue, you won't HAVE a union to "get a better contract" if Romney wins this election. Their ultimate goal is to make unionism illegal, they may say otherwise because they still need some of what little union vote is left, but why do they keep proposing legislation that makes it harder to organize and harder to remain organized?
People making just enough money to put a roof over their heads and feed their kids don't buy airline tickets, and Romney and his kind are flying their own jets or being flown around by Netjets, Options, Flexjet, etc. Trickle down is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on society, yet people still believe it when there's 30 years of proof showing its only trickled UP.

 

[The Drizzle]

Trickle down is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on society, yet people still believe it when there's 30 years of proof showing its only trickled UP.

Just because it hasn't worked yet, doesn't mean we shouldn't keep giving it a try. U S A U S A U S A

 

[se1776]

I use to fly the Dehavilland Dash8. On the windshield there are two spot lights that are use to inspect the windshield wipers for ice accumulation at night time. The MEL will not allow us to dispatch at night into icing condition without that light.
I remember that it was our last leg home at night, out of PHL to SYR in the winter.
There was a report of icing conditions along the route. If we cancel that flight, 37 angry passengers were going to be stranded in PHL.
Just remember, no one will notice that the light is burned out, but according to the MEL it was a grounding item.
Now as a successful captain, what would you do?? Ground the airplane, or fly with a grounding item??

 

[Bringupthebird]

Even the folks who live in PHL are stranded in PHL.

Seriously, if the company asking this question in a interview didn't hire me because of the answer I gave, so be it. They'd like the answer less when it actually happened.

 

[SplitBar]

It's easy for some to say here that they would play hard ball and write up the nav light but in the heat of the battle I highly doubt more than a few would write up the nav light. It's an easy oversight on a pre flight and the FAA isn't going to hang you if you tell them..."hey, I didn't notice it on the prefligth". It's one thing to ignore an inop fire test, but an inop nav light. In my best Chris Carter voice, C-mon Man !!!

 

[Whine Lover]

What would your answer be if it was YOUR last leg home on Christmas Eve and your family was waiting on you for dinner?

Oh...well, then we'd just blast off and go!



NOT.


I might make a second phone call and ask when MX was going to show up...

Here's a little story Folks:

So my buddy, an America West Captain at the time, has his co-pilot give him a wink and nod about "maybe that belly antenna looks like something bumped into it and bent it a little".

Last leg home, wx moving in, bad delays if they don't get out, girlfriend waiting to see him.....standard stuff.

Well, just between the two they agreed " it looks okay to go right ? ".....RIGHT.

Long story short, a mechanic notices it is slightly damaged at the next station. It's not in the book.

They don't want it on their backs, a phone call or two is made and they find a mechanic at the last station who says " Oh yeah, we noticed that. The crew thought it wasn't damaged enough to put it in the book. "

A few weeks later, an FAA audit raises a few eyebrows over some paperwork: - MX Log Entry " Upon landing in XYZ lower VHF antenna..."

Yeah....

A few more questions and my buddy is nailed for " departing with a known discrepancy. "

Y'all do whatever ya' want....I've been 121 for 25 years, 15 at a major and the rest as a freight dog. I know how things "work".

But experience and old age are some great teachers of simple lessons learned.

Whine

 

[SplitBar]

Oh...well, then we'd just blast off and go!



NOT.


I might make a second phone call and ask when MX was going to show up...

Here's a little story Folks:

So my buddy, an America West Captain at the time, has his co-pilot give him a wink and nod about "maybe that belly antenna looks like something bumped into it and bent it a little".

Last leg home, wx moving in, bad delays if they don't get out, girlfriend waiting to see him.....standard stuff.

Well, just between the two they agreed " it looks okay to go right ? ".....RIGHT.

Long story short, a mechanic notices it is slightly damaged at the next station. It's not in the book.

They don't want it on their backs, a phone call or two is made and they find a mechanic at the last station who says " Oh yeah, we noticed that. The crew thought it wasn't damaged enough to put it in the book. "

A few weeks later, an FAA audit raises a few eyebrows over some paperwork: - MX Log Entry " Upon landing in XYZ lower VHF antenna..."

Yeah....

A few more questions and my buddy is nailed for " departing with a known discrepancy. "

Y'all do whatever ya' want....I've been 121 for 25 years, 15 at a major and the rest as a freight dog. I know how things "work".

But experience and old age are some great teachers of simple lessons learned.

Whine

So it wasn't just between the 2 pilots. A mechanic was also in the loop. There is no mechanic in the loop in the Xmas Nav light scenario. Easy pre flight oversight.

 

[airgator]

Sully wouldn't write it up.

 

[Whine Lover]

Why would you not just defer it? Then you would still depart on time and all is well.

Obviously, yes...if it is a crew deferrable item per the MEL, bing-bang-boom and we are outta' there!

However , the original question is posed to assume that this is an item that requires maintenance personnel ( who have gone home ) to correct the problem.


WL

 

[Whine Lover]

Airgator:

You have perfectly described the issue we run into on a daily basis. We (Pilots/FEs) are not allowed to use our discretion when there is a procedure in place to deal with the exact issue you mentioned. The first casualty of specificity in aviation is reasonableness. When you fly under any part of the 14 CFR (91,121, 135, etc) there are approved procedures in place that hold the DOM (Director of Maintenance), PIC and Dispatcher (if applicable) accountable. The FAA usually shows no mercy for willfully operating in contravention to an approved maintenance / flight ops procedure. And can you blame the FAA ? They are held accountable to the DOT, Congress and the POTUS.

Now back to you example, the burned out NAV light. Will it bring down the airplane or contribute to a collision ? I doubt it but unless the MEL gives relief for it being out, the airplane is not moving with my signature on the Release without me being able to look the FAA and my boss in the eye and state that I believe the aircraft is airworthy.

What we do in the civilian world is not combat flying. It is elective air transportation. When weapons are pointed at the aircraft, then the priorities change. Until then, I will follow the rules/regs to the best of my ability while I am entrusted with the safety of the PAX, fellow crew and people on the ground.

Exactly.

Nicely stated.


WL

 

[Whine Lover]

"..hey, I didn't notice it on the preflight".

This works well...IF you are the ONLY ONE who made the "oversight".

Most Crewmembers talk to the other guy and they jointly agree on a course of action.

OOPS. Now there's TWO people in the equation....TWO people willfully violating FAR's.

Ever watch how easy it is to trip up TWO criminals trying to tell the same story when you separate them and ask a few questions?

Geez...it's just so much easier to play by the simple rules we are given and then nobody has to keep "their story straight".

I think my Dad taught me that simple truth when I was around five years old....





WL

 

[SplitBar]

"..hey, I didn't notice it on the preflight".

This works well...IF you are the ONLY ONE who made the "oversight".

Most Crewmembers talk to the other guy and they jointly agree on a course of action.

OOPS. Now there's TWO people in the equation....TWO people willfully violating FAR's.

Ever watch how easy it is to trip up TWO criminals trying to tell the same story when you separate them and ask a few questions?

Geez...it's just so much easier to play by the simple rules we are given and then nobody has to keep "their story straight".

I think my Dad taught me that simple truth when I was around five years old....





WL

There is a difference between simple truth and going outside of the box a little bit. Big picture & common sense stuff, try it sometime. As stated earlier, if everyone operated under a 100% inability to be flexible when it comes to non safety related rules the airlines would come to a crippling hault.

 

[Fox-Tree]

American pilots weren’t allowed to strike over the contract voiding, so instead they did something clever: They started following the rules.

So you mean that, American Pilots were not following the rules?? All of a sudden they're upset with the company and the rules get enforced. it's that clever??

"Rules" have a pretty broad definition. It seems like the media, the flying public, management and even most on this thread are focusing on the maintenance/write up side of following the rules.

What has an equal if not larger role in this whole effort is the pilots following the "rules" regarding what their actual duties involve. It's in most pilots nature to act when they see a train wreck developing. We almost always see this stuff coming first - we're on the front lines. Whether it's a lack of a fuel truck, an impending duty day issue or any number of potential problems, we want to get that info to someone who needs to know so they can head off the problem before it develops. Technically, that's not our job.

If we just fly the plane and do our jobs exactly as defined at our company, nothing more, nothing less (i.e. follow the rules/contract) everything will grind to a crawl very quickly. This power we hold is one of the most effective tools in our kit.

 

[laker4284]

There is a difference between simple truth and going outside of the box a little bit. Big picture & common sense stuff, try it sometime. As stated earlier, if everyone operated under a 100% inability to be flexible when it comes to non safety related rules the airlines would come to a crippling hault.

Bingo!

The pedantic by-the-book types or militant unionistas were and are the worst guys to fly with. If I learned nothing else in my 35 year airline career it was the idea that sometimes thinking and acting outside the box a litte (not a lot) while using some discretion showed wisdom, not folly. Without some independent thinking and a little can do attitude, you're little more than a robot, and a not very productive one at that.

 

[Whine Lover]

And now for the Devil's Advocate..

Are there times when a fella' MIGHT just say "to Heck with it ....I'll take the risk and worry about it later" and leave with a non-deferable, un-corrected, MX issue ?

Absolutely.

Maybe you find yourself in a Desert where a lot of angry people like to wear "hats" made out of towels and colorful pieces of cloth, and they like to shoot rockets and stuff on days that aren't even the 4th of July.

And maybe, this MX item is going to cause you to ground the aircraft and stay in a hostile environment, subject to rocket attacks, or you'll wind up in a local hotel in a country that apparently was founded by some guy named "Stan". A place where your lily white Arse is a shining beacon ( aka: "Target ) for all to see.

Well yeah, maybe, just maybe....a guy might weigh his options in a different manner.




Having to spend a night in a Ramada in PHL on X-Mas eve really isn't worth the possible repercussions.

However, the prospect of having to spend a lifetime ( which may be very short at that point ) in a cave/cell with a bunch of heavily bearded fellows asking you questions all day and night might weigh in differently in the decision making process.

Yes...That could be an " EFF' the nav. light, and the bent antenna, and the (whatever the hell else is wrong ) let's get OUT of here and figure that out later !! " scenario.

Besides, there aren't a lot of FAA folks in most of the "Stans" anyway.




WL

 

[SplitBar]

And now for the Devil's Advocate..

Are there times when a fella' MIGHT just say "to Heck with it ....I'll take the risk and worry about it later and leave with a non-deferable, un-corrected, MX issue ?

Absolutely.

Maybe you find yourself in a War Zone... you know, like a Desert where a lot of angry people like to wear "hats" made out of towels and colorful pieces of cloth .. and they like to shoot rockets and stuff on days that aren't even the 4th of July.

And, this MX item is going to cause you to ground the aircraft and stay in a hostile environment, subject to rocket attacks, or wind up in a local hotel in a place that ends in "stan" ... where your lily white arse is a shining beacon ( aka: "Target ) just begging to be taken out...

Well yeah, maybe, just maybe....a guy might weigh his options in a different manner.




But, having to spend a night in a hotel in PHL on X-mas eve really isn't worth the possible repercussions.

The prospect of having to spend a lifetime ( which may be very short at that point ) in a cave /cell with a bunch of heavily bearded fellows asking you questions all day and night might weigh in differently in the decision making process...

Yeah...That could be a " EFF' the nav. light, and the bent antenna, and the (whatever the hell else is wrong ) let's get OUT of here and figure that out later !! " scenario.

Besides, there aren't a lot of FAA folks in most of the "Stans" anyway....




WL

It's a Nav light in BFE. Lighten up Francis. Have fun in the hotel knowing you just ruined 150 peoples Xmas. I'll be pressing on.

 

[Whine Lover]

" It's a Nav light in BFE. Lighten up Francis. Have fun in the hotel knowing you just ruined 150 peoples Xmas. I'll be pressing on."


- " Good Luck Captain ! We're all counting on you! "

( Cue National Anthem / Waving Flags / Hero's Salute )



Signed,

The Grinch

 

[airgator]

This thread just shows how spot on the "Last of the dinosaurs" thread is. Two different mentalities. People who are captains and think and act like a captain, or people who are robots and think and act like the feds and their DO are across the fence with binoculars watching them on Christmas eve at an outstation.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Christmas is Santa's birthday. End of Rant

No, its a guaranteed day at work while mgmt sits on the houseboats drinking hot toddys thanking their lucky stars that they were smart enough to be managers instead of the "help".

 

[SplitBar]

This thread just shows how spot on the "Last of the dinosaurs" thread is. Two different mentalities. People who are captains and think and act like a captain, or people who are robots and think and act like the feds and their DO are across the fence with binoculars watching them on Christmas eve at an outstation.

+1 Couldn't have summed it up better.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Why would you not just defer it?

Because under chimps new austerity program the other one was already deferred, along with the APU, Duct Mon, and entire right wing.....

 

[Ops check good]

Because under chimps new austerity program the other one was already deferred, along with the APU, Duct Mon, and entire right wing.....

Well... darn I guess x-mas is F-ed.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

This thread just shows how spot on the "Last of the dinosaurs" thread is. Two different mentalities. People who are captains and think and act like a captain, or people who are robots and think and act like the feds and their DO are across the fence with binoculars watching them on Christmas eve at an outstation.

c : the complex of mental and ethical traits marking and often individualizing a person, group, or nation

WASHINGTON—There are signs that future airline pilots will be less experienced, less ethical and in short supply, a panel of experts told an aviation safety forum on Tuesday.



While there are more pilots than there are airline jobs today, the reverse is likely to be true as airlines recover from the economic recession and begin hiring again, experts on pilot hiring and screening told the National Transportation Safety Board. The coming shortage may likely fall heaviest on regional airlines, who generally employ less-experienced pilots at lower salaries, they said.

There are about 54,000 pilots working for major airlines, nearly 19,000 regional airline pilots and about 2,500 qualified pilots available for hire in the U.S. today, said aviation consultant Judy Tarver, a former pilot recruiter for American Airlines. She estimated that airlines will need to hire about 42,090 pilots over the next decade, due to retirements and anticipated industry growth.

Panel members said there are far fewer military pilots leaving for jobs with airlines. Fewer college students say they want careers in aviation because they see it as an economic dead end, and airlines are increasingly having to compete with corporations for pilots.

The comments came as the safety board began a three-day forum on how to get more pilots and air traffic controllers to consistently strive for a high-level of professionalism. The impetus for the forum is a series of high-profile incidents over the past year in which the conduct and judgment of pilots and controllers have been called into question, including the crash of a regional airliner near Buffalo, N.Y., that killed 50 people.

The safety board said the crash occurred after the plane stalled because the pilot pulled back, instead of pushing forward, on a key piece of safety equipment. But they also cited a series of errors and unprofessional conduct by the pilot and first officer leading up to the accident.

Paul Rice, a pilot and spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association, said he was skeptical that a willingness to break rules and flout authority among younger pilots is any different than past generations of young pilots.

However, he said he shared the panel's concern that there will be a shortage of experienced pilots at regional airlines, which account for half of all domestic flights and are the only scheduled air service to about 400 communities.

Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said any pilot shortage won't affect safety because pilots are trained, certified and tested.

Airline travel today is safer than ever before, but the Buffalo crash and other incidents are warning signs that safety may be eroding because of an attitude of "casual compliance" by a minority of pilots, said Tony Kern, a former Air Force lieutenant colonel and author of five books on pilot performance.

The Nav light wont hurt anything, can't say the same for the pilots.



How was the last NAMBLA meeting?