American... Get that rig!

[redflyer65]

At one point he was adding and AVERAGE of 6-10 post a day. And not adding ANY new information like he did when he was new here.

It's the same BS, everyday..day in and day out. People have gotten tired of it and left. It would have been much simpler if he had left and we could have still had a relevant website. Very sad.

 

[HA25]

Someone put this thread out of its misery.

 

[redflyer65]

Someone put this site out of its misery.

Fixed it for you...

 

[dicko]

There are plenty of people that are clueless about the SW pay system.

I just finished flying around 85 hours of flight time for Jan, and will be paid 126 trips for pay. Picked up a few trips, some deadheading in there, and that awesome rig of 6.5 per day showed up a few times. No premium and I'll make the equivalent of a 12 year Delta widebody FO. Around 180/hr per hour flown.

Substandard? Hardly. Now I'm all for increasing the retirement component and increasing the pay with at least min COLA raises, but to throw the whole structure under the bus just because you're ex-Tranny is ridiculous.

Parking? Yea that's a huge benefit. Reserve? Maybe we could get airport standby like AirTran had. Give me a break.

Nobody comes close on..

1. Rig per day
2. Codeshare, scope
3. Pay structure in general

At least min COLA eh ? Wow. Quite the warrior spirit.

How many days off did you get ? Include your commuting days since you had to commute in a day early, or day late for each trip. Unless you consider your commute time off ? 85 hours of block is nothing to be proud of. It's over 1000 block hours a year. You're a good little minion aren't you. .....Nice and productive ?

There are some great things about the contract, but some of it sucks equally. The Reserve system is pretty abysmal. You've already given your views on how awful AirTran was - so why compare the Reserve systems ? Do you consider them a fair comparison suddenly ? You could counter the ready reserve argument with 'long call'.

You'll settle for 12%, min COLA and a tummy rub. I'll bet my "game changer" on it.

 

[HA25]

dicko is 100% correct... PEOPLE NEED TO WRAP THEIR MINDS AROUND THIS...

PRODUCTIVITY TO THE AIRLINE MANAGERS IS MONEY OUT OF YOUR POCKET AND INTO THEIRS.

Unless your time is of no value.... however mine is.

 

[SWA Bubba]

dicko is 100% correct... PEOPLE NEED TO WRAP THEIR MINDS AROUND THIS...

PRODUCTIVITY TO THE AIRLINE MANAGERS IS MONEY OUT OF YOUR POCKET AND INTO THEIRS.

Unless your time is of no value.... however mine is.

That's a pure ALPA point of view, HA25.

To us at Southwest (at least those of us here by choice), productivity is money IN our pocket, not out, and something we like about Southwest. We credit more hours per duty period, more per pairing, more per month, for the same number of days' work. Or the same credit for fewer days of work. However you want to look at it.

And you have it all backwards: my time is of great value to me. I don't want to sit around on overnights on unproductive trips. I want to work/get paid the most for each day I'm at work--therefore I can work fewer days for the same total monthly credit. Ergo, more days off--the days that are important to me. How do you not see that? You'd rather work more days to earn whatever total credit you need? You'd rather sit around on long overnights than be at home? Just to make the same amount of money?

Yes, being more productive helps the company. It means they need fewer pilots to fly their schedule. But so friggin' what?! More important than that, it's also good for me, in that I get more days off for a given monthly credit that I need (or want in a given month).

Being purposely unproductive only helps ALPA. It means the company has to hire more pilots for a given schedule, and ALPA gets more dues. That's pretty much it.

Bubba

 

[Jim]

SWA Bubba - your view is a pure SWA point of view. Or a regionals....

When you fly internationally or ;long haul with destinations that are not daily, you can't fly very productive schedules. We need rigs.

Same goes for interisland. At 30 mins a leg and a finite allowed number of t/o & landings per day, there is only so much productivity to be had.

So for most of us, increasing productivity is giving up time off.

And if you were being truthful to yourself, all the premium time SWA gives in the many different instances (re-routes, schedule changes, etc.) is basically a rig of another name. More money for the same amount of flying.

 

[HA25]

Bubba you're talking at me and not with me.

Not talking about productivity as a one way street. OF COURSE we want to be productive. There is a word of difference between doing a 3 day trip and getting only paid the flight time and nothing on your 30 hour layover and doing it and getting paid 5.15 min daily credit while sitting there. Unlike southwest, airlines that fly big jets on long single segment trips into markets with only one flight per day HAVE to have trip rigs or the pilots end up working for free. This is something meaningless to you but trust me the guys at Delta and United know what Im taking about. As do many unhappy AA pilots holding junior trips that are "unproductive".

 

[SWA Bubba]

SWA Bubba - your view is a pure SWA point of view. Or a regionals....

When you fly internationally or ;long haul with destinations that are not daily, you can't fly very productive schedules. We need rigs.

Same goes for interisland. At 30 mins a leg and a finite allowed number of t/o & landings per day, there is only so much productivity to be had.

So for most of us, increasing productivity is giving up time off.

And if you were being truthful to yourself, all the premium time SWA gives in the many different instances (re-routes, schedule changes, etc.) is basically a rig of another name. More money for the same amount of flying.

Actually, my view isn't just "SWA or regional." It's anyone who's not doing what you just said--long haul international and non-daily destinations. If you aren't stuck someplace because there's not another flight for 36 hours, that's one thing. And maybe it's your thing, due to the type of operations Hawaiian does. But that's not what bigger airlines typically do, and it's not what HA25 was railing about.

BTW, I am being completely honest, and I agree--rigs are key. Probably more so at an operation like yours. We have great rigs at Southwest: .74 tfp/duty hour, min 6.5 tfp/day average, etc, etc. But their primary point is to keep the company honest in trip creation. It forces them to keep the trips productive so the company isn't paying us for nothing. You generally see them kick in during irregular ops; otherwise, we are working/crediting more in a given work day.

And like I said, that translates to more days off for a given monthly credit.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

So for most of us, increasing productivity is giving up time off.

BTW, I don't understand this statement. "Increasing productivity" means working longer or denser trips during your pairing, rather than sitting in hotels. How does that give up time off? Does it mean something different to you?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba you're talking at me and not with me.

Seriously? -I'm- talking at you? Did you even read your post that I responded to?

You made a declaration, in all caps (!), that productivity was bad for pilots and only good for the company. You left absolutely no room for interpretation, and then condescended to everyone else about the "value" of people's time.

Not talking about productivity as a one way street. OF COURSE we want to be productive.

Okay then, make up your mind. In your first post, you said just the opposite: "PRODUCTIVITY TO THE AIRLINE MANAGERS IS MONEY OUT OF YOUR POCKET AND INTO THEIRS."

There is a word of difference between doing a 3 day trip and getting only paid the flight time and nothing on your 30 hour layover and doing it and getting paid 5.15 min daily credit while sitting there. Unlike southwest, airlines that fly big jets on long single segment trips into markets with only one flight per day HAVE to have trip rigs or the pilots end up working for free. This is something meaningless to you but trust me the guys at Delta and United know what Im taking about. As do many unhappy AA pilots holding junior trips that are "unproductive".

Yes, I'm for rigs. They protect the pilot and keep the company honest. And they're certainly a necessity with an operation like you describe (one flight-per-day markets).

But more importantly, I'm for working more hours during any given three-day, so that I don't have to work more days in addition to that three-day, to total the credit I need for the month. In my mind, that's productivity, and that's how it's helpful to the pilot.

Perhaps we're arguing different things. You seem to be defining "productivity" as working more total days; I say "productivity" is working more hours during your work days, so you don't have to work more days.

Bubba

 

[HA25]

...., and it's not what HA25 was railing about.


Seriously? -I'm- talking at you? Did you even read your post that I responded to?

You made a declaration, in all caps (!), that productivity was bad for pilots and only good for the company. You left absolutely no room for interpretation, and then condescended to everyone else about the "value" of people's time.



BTW, I am
Bubba

WOW! are you even reading what I'm typing???? IT IS what I said... my God and you talk about General Lee being out of touch.

I said it before... the word productivity is a two way street... VERY different things from a pilots' view vs a management team's. If I work 22 days a month and get 75 hours of credit, I AM PRODUCTIVE to management, do you not get that?

Read the whole G'dam thread... not just my last post. Problem is you spend 90% of your time trolling G'Lee and 10% actually discussing issues on here. Issues frankly which have very little to do with your airline or your type of flying.. This is Legacy airline stuff..

 

[Jim]

BTW, I don't understand this statement. "Increasing productivity" means working longer or denser trips during your pairing, rather than sitting in hotels. How does that give up time off? Does it mean something different to you?

Bubba

By the nature of our flying, and most international flying, you can't fly "denser" trips. There are no connecting trips nor time under FAR 117 to make working longer during a trip a possibility. So the only way to be more productive is to work additional trips which means giving up days off.

According to my friend who is a junior 767 FO at AA, it is the same for them. Delta and United have the day minimum.

And you were sort of right in your other post. It's not just a SWA and regional thing. Your view of more productivity would work for most majors in their domestic flying. But a very significant portion of their pilots are flying international and not domestic. You have to protect the international pilots and you can't have a contract that favors one group with rigs while leaving the other out. So that makes SWA unique among the majors in being able to increase productivity across the board your way.

 

[SWA Bubba]

WOW! are you even reading what I'm typing???? IT IS what I said... my God and you talk about General Lee being out of touch.

I said it before... the word productivity is a two way street... VERY different things from a pilots' view vs a management team's. If I work 22 days a month and get 75 hours of credit, I AM PRODUCTIVE to management, do you not get that?

Read the whole G'dam thread... not just my last post. Problem is you spend 90% of your time trolling G'Lee and 10% actually discussing issues on here. Issues frankly which have very little to do with your airline or your type of flying.. This is Legacy airline stuff..

Dude! You should un-wad your panties before you hurt yourself.

I did read the whole "G-dam" thread, and re-read it again just now to be sure. And no, Mr. Excitable, you most certainly did not say before that "productivity is a two-way street." You made no such remark until after I made my comment about it. That's when you changed or clarified what you meant, and after I tried to explain what I meant, you fell off the rails (or your meds; whatever ).

As a matter of fact, prior comments of yours in this thread appeared to use the same definition of "productivity" as -I- used:

....
The NEO should be more "productive" we hope. time will tell, as they haven't announced how they plan to operate or base them.
....

I would assume this is an example of a non productive 3 day trip with trip rig. The same 3 day at HAL likely is worth 11-12 hours.

So you might imagine the confusion of a reader who, after seeing you use the word "productivity" with the same exact connotation as I and others generally presume, then sees you post this comment, shouted, unequivocal, no-room-for-interpretation (and then followed by more condescension):

....
PRODUCTIVITY TO THE AIRLINE MANAGERS IS MONEY OUT OF YOUR POCKET AND INTO THEIRS.
....

Especially since your snarky comment was in response to, and actually quoted something that Dicko had said, which was specifically about Southwest's "productivity." Sitting on one's ass on long layovers is not generally a concern at SWA, and "productivity" means exactly what people think it means--work density per work day.

And then you basically lose your sh1t when someone points this out, and dares question your opinion? You want to talk about rigs and not having to work as many days for your 70 hrs? Then you should probably phrase it that way. By all means, HA25, get your rigs. Get those rigs that protect pilots with un-productive trips. And maybe you could try to be a little clearer with you word choice for those of us who aren't actually you.

Bubba

P.S. By the way, nice job with the smart-ass editing of my actual quote. Very professional of you.

 

[SWA Bubba]

By the nature of our flying, and most international flying, you can't fly "denser" trips. There are no connecting trips nor time under FAR 117 to make working longer during a trip a possibility. So the only way to be more productive is to work additional trips which means giving up days off.

According to my friend who is a junior 767 FO at AA, it is the same for them. Delta and United have the day minimum.

And you were sort of right in your other post. It's not just a SWA and regional thing. Your view of more productivity would work for most majors in their domestic flying. But a very significant portion of their pilots are flying international and not domestic. You have to protect the international pilots and you can't have a contract that favors one group with rigs while leaving the other out. So that makes SWA unique among the majors in being able to increase productivity across the board your way.

Thanks for the polite response.

It certainly makes sense about long-haul and international flying, especially for less-frequent destinations where long layovers are unavoidable. And that's exactly why rigs are important--to incentivize the company to make pairings "productive," and to compensate pilots when then just cannot. Southwest generally doesn't fall into this category (at least not yet), but we also have pretty good rigs to keep the company making productive pairings until that point.

Good luck.

Bubba