America Attacked video

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Re: Re: wow

Boo Hoo!

Uh...I'm not even sure that was a humanoid response.

Originally posted by Timebuilder
No evidence of that whatsoever.

Yes there is. I gave you the link to it months ago, TB. Even NSA Rice said that pre-W staffers had briefed her on a Clinton-era anti-terrorist plan. (Who knows for sure, though. Condi's been changing her story a lot lately.)

...cowardly. Or, politically aware. Any allusion to "profiling," or anything that might be interpreted as "profiling" would immediately be villified by several groups...

With all due respect to those groups, who gives a f_ck? This is war, and in war sacrifices have to be made...something this administration hasn't figured out yet. I do not for a moment believe that every male Muslim between eighteen and thirty is a threat, but I do believe they are worthy of our attention. How many times do these people have to kick us before we realize that "profiling" just might be the smart thing to do?

Can any of us really say it's better that 3,000 people die than to have 300 people inconvenienced at an airport security checkpoint?

The Dems have become a fractured party of ultra liberal special interests...

You are absolutely right...and believe it or not, James Carville himself wrote almost those exact words in his book Had Enough? (See? You two have more in common than you think! ) This is exactly why today's Democratic Party is no longer my party. To vote for George Bush would violate every moral fiber of my being...but I can not bring myself to support Kerry, either. (I'd vote for Bobbysamd, though. When's he going to run?)

... America haters...

No, this is where you go off the deep end. In my thirty-two years, I've never met anyone born in America who hates this country. Not one, and I strongly suspect you haven't either. The "America-hating liberal" is a myth created by the conservative media to designate anyone whose beliefs don't conform with the Republican mainstream.

Whose fault is 9-11? Clearly, it is the fault of those who preach hate, and raise up children in the ways of evil. They aren't just in Afghanistan, gang.

You're right: most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia...

 

[Timebuilder]

Yes there is. I gave you the link to it months ago, TB. Even NSA Rice said that pre-W staffers had briefed her on a Clinton-era anti-terrorist plan. (Who knows for sure, though. Condi's been changing her story a lot lately.)

Condi has changed nothing. If she had, Ben-Veniste would be holding a press conference right now, detailing what he felt were inconsistencies in her closed door versus public testimony. Sort of what Richard Clarke has done. No such news about Condi, though.

Now you mention a Clinton-era anti-terrorist plan. And this plan, such as it was, was implemented when?

But you're probably right. There was no animosity between the Clinton and Bush administrations and their supporters, so we should have immediately done what the Clinton administration did not do, just on their word at the time.

If I had been in charge, I would want the best plan, and would not proceed on the assumption that the best plan was already on the table.

With all due respect to those groups, who gives a f_ck? This is war, and in war sacrifices have to be made...something this administration hasn't figured out yet. I do not for a moment believe that every male Muslim between eighteen and thirty is a threat, but I do believe they are worthy of our attention. How many times do these people have to kick us before we realize that "profiling" just might be the smart thing to do?

As I said, not only has the administration figured this out, but several others have, too.

You have your work cut out for you. Start with some of the posters here. Get them all on board for the profiling that you and I agree should be taking place.

I don't think you'll have much luck, though. In the real world, off the board here, it would be an act of political suicide in an election year.

We get the governments that we deserve.

No, this is where you go off the deep end. In my thirty-two years, I've never met anyone born in America who hates this country. Not one, and I strongly suspect you haven't either. The "America-hating liberal" is a myth created by the conservative media to designate anyone whose beliefs don't conform with the Republican mainstream.

I can say it with utter certainty, have worked beside them, marched on washington with them, and listened to their chants. I did not join them in their hatred, or their chants.

Sometimes I said to myself, in a still small voice, "this can't possibly be good," and eventually, in the early nineties that small voice had grown to a roar, and I realized that I was never the virulent anti-American that these "friends" had become over the years.

It's no myth. Liberals see countries like France, Switzerland, and Sweden and see what they think America should be like.

I disagree, and more and more Americans are coming to the same conclusions every day.

Independently.

You're right: most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia...

They were. Let's not wait around to see where the next hijackers come from.

 

[ThomasR]

As touching and tragic as that video is, it has nothing to do with the war going on in Iraq as I write this. That attack (9-11) was done by Al-Queda, with the support of the Taliban government of Afghanistan. One can fully appreciate and justify that war on terror. Sadam's Iraq was a different monster. The American government is now trying to shift the mistake it made in attacking Iraq over WMD, to a new mission of freeing an oppressed people in Iraq. That mission is a mis-directed folly, which is siphoning resources away from killing Al-Queda, to a mission of forcing a democracy down the throat of a people who don't want it, and are rising up in opposition to an occupying military force.

The terror is the Islamic fanatics that have no borders. They move about the world filled with hatred that they are being ignored in world affairs. They have been there since before biblical times. Iraq is simply the beach head of the initial stages in addressing an ever growing problem. The problem involves people of all nations who would rather live in peace under a system of laws rather than by the whimsical dictates of radicals with modern weapons.

 

[jarhead]

ThomasR

I agree with much of what you just posted. Perhaps the only place where I might have a disagreement with you, is the implication you make that the fighting in Iraq is with exclusivly Islamic fundamentalists. To be sure, there are some of them in that fighting, and some are no doubt foriegn fighters from Syria, Iran, and other hot bed countries for Islamic Jihad.

However, what is becoming apparent to me, is that a lot of ordinary citizens of Iraq are taking up arms against coalition forces, that they see as an occupying force in THEIR country. They resent that, as bizarre as that may seem to you and me. American lives and treasure is being wasted, trying to force a democracy down their throats, when they do not want it! Sadaam is gone, his sons are gone, and most of the deck of cards have been killed or captured. There are no WMD's. Even David Kay states that, and that we had flawed intel that caused our government to launch this war. It is spinning out of control. Our young men are dying daily for no apparent legitimate cause. As you said, terror knows no borders, so why do we chose to war inside Iraqi borders. Why not Indonesia, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, or even within the borders of America itself. The Bush administration has even acknowledged terror cells in our own country, but we do not attack them with Cobra gunships and Abrams tanks. Our troops are now facing a popular insurrection against an invading force (US) in their land. Our boys are dying to give Iraq a democracy, which they appear to reject. That defies all logic to me. If we must be at war, Iraq is not the place. Our resources would be put to far better use in Afghanistan, where there still are remnants of the Taliban and Al-Queda regrouping. I see no threat any more from Iraq. At least no threat worthy of the ongoing killing of our troops, now over 600, and climbing every day

 

[Timebuilder]

However, what is becoming apparent to me, is that a lot of ordinary citizens of Iraq are taking up arms against coalition forces, that they see as an occupying force in THEIR country.

I'd expect the majority of "anti-war" reporters to be saying this, but they are not.

Could it be because this is not generally true?

 

[jarhead]

You may recall the famous ancient Chinese general who wrote, "The Art of War" In that book which is still required reading in American war college is a famous edict.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

The Suni's and Shi'ites have hated each other forever. Their leaders are now making overtures to join forces to expell us from their land.

Draw your own conclusions from that bizarre situation.

 

[ThomasR]

I am angry with our government for allowing 9-11, I am angry for ignoring the urgency of "Blackhawk Down" in Somalia, USS Cole, Olympic Village bombings, Pan Am hi-jacking, embassy bombings in Egypt.... on and on and on. I am angry at people who torture and murder innocent civilians for no reason other than they too are angry.

I was in a combat environment while in the army. It did not bother me that I might get killed or wounded. The army makes it very clear what the dangers are. You accept it and go on to do your job; part of that job is the fact that some are going to get killed. So be it. We are all going to die at some point.

The objective is to make the environment peaceful for all people, not just a few with selfish ambitions. If these terrorists were fighting for peace I would be in the trenches with them. But they are not; they choose to segregate themselves from the civilized world and reign terror on anyone who descents. They know no loyalty or they would not be torturing innocent Japanese attempting to render aid. They take whatever they pilfer and hoard it for themselves.

If the people of Iraq want freedom, it comes at a price. And they do want freedom, they have been saying it for decades. Why should WE pay a price? Because we have a military and it is the military responsibility to fight the wars. If you don't want to fight, stay out of the military. When Iraq is done there will be some other war some other place. There is lots of job security in the military.

How do we know when to stop the fighting? When we vote to stop; we voted to start it. People vote on issues and the issue is not to stop the war but rather who will lead in its completion. I am not happy about having our freedoms taxed. But I know we are a free thinking people and these issues will be revised as time evolves. This is the price we pay for freedom.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: ThomasR

...they see as an occupying force in THEIR country. They resent that, as bizarre as that may seem to you and me.

There's an important issue related to what you said: I think this administration has fallen into the trap of believing that the average Iraqi thinks the same way the average American does. It's like the General in Full Metal Jacket: "...inside every gook is an American fighting to get out." It just doesn't work that way.

They are clearly better off without Saddam. Beyond that, however, I don't know what the Iraqi people want, and I don't think the President knows, either.

 

[JetCapt69]

911 commission

The Bush Administration needs to show the 9/11 investigation committee that video.

Maybe then...they could see the light.

 

[ThomasR]

Iraq

You want to know what the people of Iraq want? Freedom!!!

They have 5,000 newspaper over there right now, all protected by their interest in knowing the truth.

What is being said in the news; and not just one source. Get as many view points that time will allow. Ask US-Iraqi citizens what is going on in their mother land. Ask the thousands of new business owners in Iraq if they stood a chance in Saddam's "mafia" world to own a business?

Al Jazzier is a good background rag for the opposition; compare them with the French reporters who have been apprehensive from the start. What are the differences in focus as reported in British rags, or any one of our own reporters both sanctioned and not. Overlook the sensational reporting and photos that are designed to enrage people and to create more news.

The people of Iraq are giving up their lives to be free. And when I say the people of Iraq I am meaning all the people good and bad. They will never be free until all factions are unified under one goal and they have the good sense to maintain that tumultuous unity under any circumstance.

If they have neither the good sense nor the fortitude, they don't deserve freedom.

 

[Timebuilder]

Re: Re: ThomasR

There's an important issue related to what you said: I think this administration has fallen into the trap of believing that the average Iraqi thinks the same way the average American does. It's like the General in Full Metal Jacket: "...inside every gook is an American fighting to get out." It just doesn't work that way.

They are clearly better off without Saddam. Beyond that, however, I don't know what the Iraqi people want, and I don't think the President knows, either.

Maybe not an American fighting to get out. After all, many will come to America for that specific purpose. How many Vietnamese have come here to make that fictional General's words come true? Half a million? More?

If there is not an American fighting to get out inside every Iraqi, there is certainly a human eager to escape tyranny.

In that regard, we will have been greatly successful.

The future will be up to the Iraqis, as it should be.

 

[RideTheWind]

bbbbbuuuuummmmmppppppp

 

[350DRIVER]

As touching and tragic as that video is, it has nothing to do with the war going on in Iraq as I write this. That attack (9-11) was done by Al-Queda, with the support of the Taliban government of Afghanistan. One can fully appreciate and justify that war on terror. Sadam's Iraq was a different monster. The American government is now trying to shift the mistake it made in attacking Iraq over WMD, to a new mission of freeing an oppressed people in Iraq. That mission is a mis-directed folly, which is siphoning resources away from killing Al-Queda, to a mission of forcing a democracy down the throat of a people who don't want it, and are rising up in opposition to an occupying military force.

Very very well put. I don't think I could have said it any better myself. Those who try and "spin" this any other way only do so to fit their own agenda.

3 5 0

 

[FL000]

As touching and tragic as that video is, it has nothing to do with the war going on in Iraq as I write this. That attack (9-11) was done by Al-Queda, with the support of the Taliban government of Afghanistan. One can fully appreciate and justify that war on terror. Sadam's Iraq was a different monster. The American government is now trying to shift the mistake it made in attacking Iraq over WMD, to a new mission of freeing an oppressed people in Iraq. That mission is a mis-directed folly, which is siphoning resources away from killing Al-Queda, to a mission of forcing a democracy down the throat of a people who don't want it, and are rising up in opposition to an occupying military force.

This is not a war on al-Qaeda, it is a war on terrorism. This war is not about an eye for an eye, it is about removing all of their eyes before one more of ours is lost. We have avenged 9/11 already, and continue to mop up in Afghanistan. It's time now to eradicate. To say that Iraq was no threat to America, present or future, is to be blind to the facts. You seem to want to focus solely on those who attacked us on 9/11. This effort is much larger than that, a fact that liberals are having a tough time comprehending.

The headlines on the Duelfer Report were about the lack of WMDs in Iraq. So what? What is bigger is that the report stated that Saddam was manipulating the Oil for Food program, paying off high-ranking officials in France, Germany, Russia, and other countries to fend off attacks until such time as the sanctions were lifted. Then he was to re-up his weapons program, a program that undeniably existed (just ask the Kurds), and do who knows what with them.

Was the Iraq war perhaps a little out of place? Sure, I'll give you that. I'd rather see N. Korea or Iran going down right now, but the Iraq war was coming sooner or later under a responsible President. All of that is very easy to say in hindsight. Pre-war, we all thought Saddam had WMDs. You thought it. I thought it. The President thought it. Sen. Kerry thought it. The world thought it. Saddam did nothing to disprove that. In fact, he did everything to prevent us from disproving that by defying Resolution 1441, which unanimously approved military force against Iraq.

On a side note, let's not forget also the effect that the war had outside of Iraq, including improved relations with Mohammar Qaddafi and Pervez Musharraf.

You decry the effort in Iraq because that serves your political agenda. However, it is a hollow shout because you know that the removal of Saddam was the right thing, WMDs or not, and the world is better off without him around. If you deny this, you'll be the first I've heard to voice such an opinion.

I guess this nuisance in Iraq doesn't pass your global test.

 

[ustillflyin]

"no evidence whatsoever"


two words...

Salmon Pak

(i.e. the place in Baghdad where they TRAINED terrorists to hijack planes)