ALPA's opposition to Age 60

[active_herk]

The folks that won't want the Age 60 rule repealed are the major airlines themselves. Gosh, could you imagine what that would do to their bottom lines if they allowed their most senior pilots (most likely their most expensive) to continue to fly??? I think a good compromise would be a bridge to age 65...

Actually, I think you may be wrong on this point. If the major airline managers had their way, we would work until the day we die. If your airline has an 'A' fund, the company pays a pension to you every month until you die. This amount is based on a formula or in some cases a series of formulas. In return for receiving this pension, you are contributing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the company once you are retired. In other words, you are generating no revenue for the company. On the other hand, if you continue to work, you may be the highest paid employee, but you are still generating revenue for the company. I can guarantee the revenue you generate will far outweigh the amount you cost the company in terms of salary and benefits. It will at the very least cover the cost difference between your salary as an active employee and the amount the company is paying you in pension.

 

[CitationLover]

ALPA = hypocrite

foxhunter,

is this the same ALPA that was screaming bloody murder at US Airways for considering the PBGC as an option. now they want to exacerbate the situation? since when did ALPA care about airline companies?

if you want to know the exact thing (the "deficit reduction contribution") the article is talking about, it is called a PBGC 4010 calculation.

 

[46Driver]

I've watched this fight over on the ALPA boards for a while and the one constant I've noted is that those with a pension (i.e., Delta, American, etc...) want retirement at age 60 and those with only a 401k (Southwest, the majority of the regionals) want 65 - its all about money. Seems like the only fair thing to do is get rid of the age 60 FAA ruling and let each pilot group handle it in their own contract.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Yeah, that or....

They could work on improving their contract so they don't have to work past 60.

Nah, it's probably easier to petition congress and take the rest of us down with them.

 

[46Driver]

FDJ's,
You know there is no way that pilots at a regional are going to make the kind of money that you do at a major - thus the retirement is going to be inferior. The fact that Delta has a large pension is fantastic - I have no desire to change that. If you want things to continue the way they are AT DELTA, then make it part of Delta's contract - but don't impose your will on those IN DIFFERENT COMPANIES making only a fraction of what you do. This does not affect your scope clause, this does not affect your seniority list - it simply allows pilots who did not hit the jackpot of a major airline to have a sufficient retirement.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

46,

I understand what you are getting at, but if you think that the contracts of other carriers have no effect on ours, well, you just haven't been paying attention.

Because of that, the odds of too many more people "hitting the jackpot" are becoming slim, and the jackpot itself is shrinking.

This is just another example of it.

 

[b757driver]

OK then, give me my SS, medicare etc @ age 60 if you take away the right for me to continue to work when I need to. Will you do that? I doubt it!
Gentlemen, there are always two sides to any story and some of you really need to stand in the other guys shoes. So what if it takes a younger guy a few extra years to upgrade? ALL he has to do is wait - he'll get there eventually. At 60, you can't turn the clock back, that's it, you're done!
Freedom of choice, no arbitrary age discrimination. If it was all about safety, how come surgeons are not required to retire @ 60? Most probably do a few years earlier because they can AFFORD to & it's their choice. We already have too much regulation in this industry, why keep a 40+ year old rule going when it is really about politics, not safety?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Three points.

#1. I do believe it is about safety, just as any other "arbitrary" age limit is.

#2. A dollar today is always worth more than a dollar tomorrow. Six year stagnation today is equally offset by six extra years late in a carrer.

#3. I will happily get behind any fight to lower the age at which pilots can receive SS benefits. Fight for that if you like, it doesn't harm the rest of us.

 

[b757driver]

As 46 driver says, we are not all as "lucky" as you Delta guy - you have got it made, so please don't foist these rules on us who are less fortunate than yourself. Be thankful you have a job, sorry career, be thankful you have good health, be thankful you have a great retirement but always remember - not everyone is as fortunate as you. Putting artificial obstacles in the the way is not the way to go. Why are you so concerned about making more money? Do you not earn enough at a major? Lots of people make a fraction of what you do & survive OK because they have to. Life is not always about money. I think it's called greed.
When you have been in our shoes, you will know what I am talking about.
Finally, if it's all about safety, then answer me this:
why have most of the rest of the world gone to post 60 now? How come planes are not falling out of the skies?!!
At the last count, France was the only EU country in the whole of Europe to hold out. Now we are on the same level as the French. And we know how great the French are, don't we?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Don't assume 757. I have been in your shoes.



In fact, I am there now.


So you can keep your lectures about greed to yourself.

 

[General Lee]

B757 and 46driver,

You knew the rules prior to coming to this game. If your contracts need fixing, then do it. Otherwise, don't ruin it for everyone else. Life isn't fair sometimes, and crappy contracts don't mean you can say, "Time out everybody, new rules....." We all know that age has nothing to do with flying an airplane. I am sure a guy age 60 and 1 day can fly a 757 just fine. But, changing the rules to suit your needs at your airline while affecting many many others at larger airlines is wrong. I would easily support any change in SS with respect to age--at 60 etc, but not changing the age 60 retirement rule, nope. So, maybe someday it will be voted in, but until then I will fight it the best way I can---donations to democrats.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[46Driver]

"We all know age that has nothing to do with flying an airplane" Thanks for the quote - I believe you can ring that up as age discrimination.

As for the second part about rules: How did the Age 60 rule come into effect? We all know that answer. Changing the rules? Sure, I'd be happy to go back to the way it was: pilots had to be white males with a military background and stewardesses had to be single and meet a weight limit. If the Constitution itself can be amended and some of those same amendments later repealed, I hardly think a FAA regulation is cast in stone.

Third involves demographics: in the industry as a whole and within your own company. For the former: I am curious to know the number of pilots at the majors who have a good retirement vs the ever growing number of career pilots at regionals as well as those who have seen their retirements severely curtailed (i.e., US Air, United) For the latter, I don't know the Delta pension system but how can it cope over the long term with its retired pilots living longer (than they did say 40 years ago) as well as the downsizing of mainline. I will ask - is the money for your pension contributed by you - or is the pension of those retired paid for by those currently flying?

Personally, I don't see this changing for a while. The bubbas who hit the multi-million dollar jackpot (and the ones unfortunate enough to be furloughed and waiting for the seniority lists to move) are not going to change. Those who never made it to the money - or who think the whole industry is sliding never to return - are going to fight even harder to compensate by working longer. Finally, we all know ALPA will never take a vote on this because of money. Might as well drink a cold one and move on to the next topic...