ALPA Scab-list

[Typhoon1244]

...I was in Miami businessman...

...which is pretty much everything you need to know.

Without Lorenzo, Eastern would have survived in some form or other. Instead, it's gone altogether. Saying that Lorenzo had little to do with it is like saying Hitler was unimportant in world history.

 

[EKUAVN20]

What are you thinking...

The Eastern situation had little to do with pilots or Lorenzo. The whole thing was suicide of an airline.

If you were a publisher at all you would be able to figure out the many books about Frank Lorenzo and his destruction of EAL. He hated Unions, he would have never been happy having a union workforce running his company. As a son of a EAL mechanic my dad always stuck with the union because its what put meals on the table and clothes on our backs and made for safer working conditions. If you make comments have some quality information to back them up.

 

[Tripower455]

That is right I am a real human being and I get pissed off.

You made your own bed......... now lie in it........

You REALLY can't understand why pilots HATE scabs?

 

[BrnJetFuel]

Clay Lacy a scab

Was looking the list over an thought it was interesting that Mr. Pro Pilot and self made millionair was a scab as well. Wonder if Mr. Clay Lacy made millions by walking all over other pilots?

Coppied from the list:

Lacy, H Clay UAL 85 46759, Mr Aviation "Pro Pilot of Year", Lied about age to FAA and UAL, Retired, ALPA
​

 

[Publishers]

Eastern did survive in some form or another, at least for a time. Lorenzo and Carl Ichan were the bottom feeders of the era. They tried to take advantage of distressed properties.

My point is that at the time he showed up, this was a distressed property.

One of you was in elementary school, one reporting about his dad. I was there and in position to see what was happening first hand and from an educated view and knowing individuals on both sides.

No doubt you know more than I.

 

[trip]

I heard C.L. lied about his age so he could hold the #1 seniority position, effectivly stabbing other pilots in the back!

Not suprising he scabbed as well.

 

[T-Gates]

I don't know about him lying about his age, but I was under the impression he scabbed to be #1 on the list.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I am not defending Lorenzo or the part he played, but he took over a corpse that had not died. Borman and Bryan are just as guilty if not more so. Check out Easterrn maintenance costs some day versus other carriers.

Oh no, now your attacking my family by bringing FRANK into the mix. Leave him out of it!

 

[Typhoon1244]

One of you was in elementary school, one reporting about his dad.

This is true.

Now I'm thirty-two. I have lived through a little corner of Eastern's destruction since '89. I can read, and I can listen to stories and process information. I've been in close contact with this subject matter for fifteen years.

I'm not surprised that you're trying to deflect blame from Mr. Lorenzo. Many businessmen in the 80's and 90's looked up to him as a hero, and you were probably among them. His employees saw him for what he was: a corporate buthcer, a greedy bastard, interested in nothing more than lining his pockets at the expense of thousands of hardworking pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, dispatchers, PSA's, etc, etc.

Eastern was in the emergency room. It needed a doctor. It got a mortician, thanks to Frank Lorenzo, Charlie Bryan, and the Bush administration. Take away any one of those factors, and Eastern would still exist in some form today.

But you're right: I wasn't an Eastern employee and didn't experience the debacle first-hand. Show me the EAL wings you wore on your gold-striped jacket, and I'll listen to what you have to say. Tell me about the Eastern board meetings you sat in on, and I'll hang on your every word. In the mean time, shut up.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Now that I've calmed down a little...consider this:

Eastern's pilots and flight attendants were honoring an IAM picket line. Their hope was to "poison" Eastern just enough to force Lorenzo to leave without killing the company. Why did they want Lorenzo gone? Because they could see very clearly that Lorenzo was picking Eastern apart to the benefit of Texas Air.

So to say...

...the Eastern situation had little to do with pilots or Lorenzo...

...is to completely divorce one's self from reality. Several things would have to have happened to prevent Eastern's demise, but Lorenzo* was the catalyst, not an innocent bystander.




*One could argue that Bryan was equally culpable, but had Borman stayed and Lorenzo never shown up, a federal moderator would probably have been appointed and the end result might have been very different.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

My current link to the list is inop. I'm having a hard time finding another good list. The thing ought to be linked right up there on the right ABOVE the FEDEX and SWA Pool links, but in the meantime, would someone please post it. A PM would even suffice for now.

 

[Publishers]

Let's see

Let's see, I called Frank a bottom feeder of distressed properties. That sounds like defending him? The part you may be missing is merely the definition.

Borman was absolutely terrible. He was not staying no matter what. Besides that, I think he grew to hate the place.

Lorenzo was the only one who showed up to even attempt anything. At the time, Eastern was thought of as a dead pig by much of the industry. This all might have happened even sooner but Airbus made them a deal they could not refuse.

Charles Bryan thought that he had Eastern by the balls. He miscalculated what would happen and so did the pilots and flight attendants. The bankruptcy court who I think was headed by Judge Frank Crystal did not have a good many options. One of the miscalculations was that Lorenzo wanted the airline for the reservation system more than the airline itself. If anything that is the irony of it all.

Now I am sure your Dad is a great guy and did a great job. Nevrertheless you have an opinion based on the perspective he and some books give you. I am merely trying to give you the perspective of the business community and other airline people. Like you indicated in your last post, the pilots and mechanics were honoring an IAM strike and trying to force Lorenzo into something. WE AGREE. What I am saying is that this approach was a terrible miscalculation on labors part and made worse because of Bryan.

Frank Lorenzo got what he wanted and left. It was sad.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Publisher,

How could you possibly have anything to do with publishing if you cannot even write a sentence?

 

[enigma]

Pond Scum

Lorenzo was/is pond scum. He bought companies on the backs of their employees, and then raped them. His business practices can NOT be defended.

However, he wasn't the cause of EAL's demise in my opinion. I've flown with EAL pilots, trained with EAL pilots, drank with EAl pilots, read all the books, and was an adult when EAL went down. EAL was severely damaged goods. If you think about it, had EAL been on better financial ground, Lorenzo would have never been able to acquire them.

Lorenzo was the vulture picking EALs bones, he wasn't the train that ran over it. EAL was tied to the tracks well before Lorenzo bought in.

Some of you guys need to step back and seperate yourself from emotions when you discuss Lorenzo.

Now, if some original Continental pilots want to cuss Lorenzo, be my guest.

regards,
enigma

 

[Typhoon1244]

Now I am sure your Dad is a great guy and did a great job. Nevrertheless you have an opinion based on the perspective he...[gave] you.

In other words, my personal experience clouds my perception of events surrounding the Eastern debacle. You may be right.

It's been a long time since we talked about this...tell me, aren't you the guy whose wife was an Eastern flight attendant post-March 1989?

Lorenzo was the vulture picking EALs bones, he wasn't the train that ran over it. EAL was tied to the tracks well before Lorenzo bought in.

I haven't spoken to many people who share your view of Eastern's potential, but I'm going to look into it deeper. Yes, the company was facing grave financial issues, but not insurmountable ones. I still believe that if (1) Lorenzo had left, (2) the mechanics had returned to the bargaining table, or (3) President Bush had appointed a moderator, Eastern would still be flying today.