ALPA Scab-list

[Typhoon1244]

...I was in Miami businessman...

...which is pretty much everything you need to know.

Without Lorenzo, Eastern would have survived in some form or other. Instead, it's gone altogether. Saying that Lorenzo had little to do with it is like saying Hitler was unimportant in world history.

 

[EKUAVN20]

What are you thinking...

The Eastern situation had little to do with pilots or Lorenzo. The whole thing was suicide of an airline.

If you were a publisher at all you would be able to figure out the many books about Frank Lorenzo and his destruction of EAL. He hated Unions, he would have never been happy having a union workforce running his company. As a son of a EAL mechanic my dad always stuck with the union because its what put meals on the table and clothes on our backs and made for safer working conditions. If you make comments have some quality information to back them up.

 

[Tripower455]

That is right I am a real human being and I get pissed off.

You made your own bed......... now lie in it........

You REALLY can't understand why pilots HATE scabs?

 

[BrnJetFuel]

Clay Lacy a scab

Was looking the list over an thought it was interesting that Mr. Pro Pilot and self made millionair was a scab as well. Wonder if Mr. Clay Lacy made millions by walking all over other pilots?

Coppied from the list:

Lacy, H Clay UAL 85 46759, Mr Aviation "Pro Pilot of Year", Lied about age to FAA and UAL, Retired, ALPA
​

 

[Publishers]

Eastern did survive in some form or another, at least for a time. Lorenzo and Carl Ichan were the bottom feeders of the era. They tried to take advantage of distressed properties.

My point is that at the time he showed up, this was a distressed property.

One of you was in elementary school, one reporting about his dad. I was there and in position to see what was happening first hand and from an educated view and knowing individuals on both sides.

No doubt you know more than I.

 

[trip]

I heard C.L. lied about his age so he could hold the #1 seniority position, effectivly stabbing other pilots in the back!

Not suprising he scabbed as well.

 

[T-Gates]

I don't know about him lying about his age, but I was under the impression he scabbed to be #1 on the list.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I am not defending Lorenzo or the part he played, but he took over a corpse that had not died. Borman and Bryan are just as guilty if not more so. Check out Easterrn maintenance costs some day versus other carriers.

Oh no, now your attacking my family by bringing FRANK into the mix. Leave him out of it!

 

[Typhoon1244]

One of you was in elementary school, one reporting about his dad.

This is true.

Now I'm thirty-two. I have lived through a little corner of Eastern's destruction since '89. I can read, and I can listen to stories and process information. I've been in close contact with this subject matter for fifteen years.

I'm not surprised that you're trying to deflect blame from Mr. Lorenzo. Many businessmen in the 80's and 90's looked up to him as a hero, and you were probably among them. His employees saw him for what he was: a corporate buthcer, a greedy bastard, interested in nothing more than lining his pockets at the expense of thousands of hardworking pilots, flight attendants, mechanics, dispatchers, PSA's, etc, etc.

Eastern was in the emergency room. It needed a doctor. It got a mortician, thanks to Frank Lorenzo, Charlie Bryan, and the Bush administration. Take away any one of those factors, and Eastern would still exist in some form today.

But you're right: I wasn't an Eastern employee and didn't experience the debacle first-hand. Show me the EAL wings you wore on your gold-striped jacket, and I'll listen to what you have to say. Tell me about the Eastern board meetings you sat in on, and I'll hang on your every word. In the mean time, shut up.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Now that I've calmed down a little...consider this:

Eastern's pilots and flight attendants were honoring an IAM picket line. Their hope was to "poison" Eastern just enough to force Lorenzo to leave without killing the company. Why did they want Lorenzo gone? Because they could see very clearly that Lorenzo was picking Eastern apart to the benefit of Texas Air.

So to say...

...the Eastern situation had little to do with pilots or Lorenzo...

...is to completely divorce one's self from reality. Several things would have to have happened to prevent Eastern's demise, but Lorenzo* was the catalyst, not an innocent bystander.




*One could argue that Bryan was equally culpable, but had Borman stayed and Lorenzo never shown up, a federal moderator would probably have been appointed and the end result might have been very different.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

My current link to the list is inop. I'm having a hard time finding another good list. The thing ought to be linked right up there on the right ABOVE the FEDEX and SWA Pool links, but in the meantime, would someone please post it. A PM would even suffice for now.

 

[Publishers]

Let's see

Let's see, I called Frank a bottom feeder of distressed properties. That sounds like defending him? The part you may be missing is merely the definition.

Borman was absolutely terrible. He was not staying no matter what. Besides that, I think he grew to hate the place.

Lorenzo was the only one who showed up to even attempt anything. At the time, Eastern was thought of as a dead pig by much of the industry. This all might have happened even sooner but Airbus made them a deal they could not refuse.

Charles Bryan thought that he had Eastern by the balls. He miscalculated what would happen and so did the pilots and flight attendants. The bankruptcy court who I think was headed by Judge Frank Crystal did not have a good many options. One of the miscalculations was that Lorenzo wanted the airline for the reservation system more than the airline itself. If anything that is the irony of it all.

Now I am sure your Dad is a great guy and did a great job. Nevrertheless you have an opinion based on the perspective he and some books give you. I am merely trying to give you the perspective of the business community and other airline people. Like you indicated in your last post, the pilots and mechanics were honoring an IAM strike and trying to force Lorenzo into something. WE AGREE. What I am saying is that this approach was a terrible miscalculation on labors part and made worse because of Bryan.

Frank Lorenzo got what he wanted and left. It was sad.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Publisher,

How could you possibly have anything to do with publishing if you cannot even write a sentence?

 

[enigma]

Pond Scum

Lorenzo was/is pond scum. He bought companies on the backs of their employees, and then raped them. His business practices can NOT be defended.

However, he wasn't the cause of EAL's demise in my opinion. I've flown with EAL pilots, trained with EAL pilots, drank with EAl pilots, read all the books, and was an adult when EAL went down. EAL was severely damaged goods. If you think about it, had EAL been on better financial ground, Lorenzo would have never been able to acquire them.

Lorenzo was the vulture picking EALs bones, he wasn't the train that ran over it. EAL was tied to the tracks well before Lorenzo bought in.

Some of you guys need to step back and seperate yourself from emotions when you discuss Lorenzo.

Now, if some original Continental pilots want to cuss Lorenzo, be my guest.

regards,
enigma

 

[Typhoon1244]

Now I am sure your Dad is a great guy and did a great job. Nevrertheless you have an opinion based on the perspective he...[gave] you.

In other words, my personal experience clouds my perception of events surrounding the Eastern debacle. You may be right.

It's been a long time since we talked about this...tell me, aren't you the guy whose wife was an Eastern flight attendant post-March 1989?

Lorenzo was the vulture picking EALs bones, he wasn't the train that ran over it. EAL was tied to the tracks well before Lorenzo bought in.

I haven't spoken to many people who share your view of Eastern's potential, but I'm going to look into it deeper. Yes, the company was facing grave financial issues, but not insurmountable ones. I still believe that if (1) Lorenzo had left, (2) the mechanics had returned to the bargaining table, or (3) President Bush had appointed a moderator, Eastern would still be flying today.

 

[Publishers]

Scary

Scary, Enigma and I totally agree.

Skydriver-- do you think that I spend much time correcting spelling errors or sentences on these boards?

Typhoon, you can certainly have that opinion, however, if I recall no one else had any real interest which is how Lorenzo got it in the first place. He was the last resort and pretty bright in that he figured he could get the reservation system either way along with some other assets. The machinist and pilots thought they could bring him to his knees. They were wrong.

Yes my current wife was a flight attendant for 18 years at Eastern, did not care about the politics, loved her job and was hurt that it died. Many people that I knew then and now were Eastern personnel, some who struck, some who went back. There were no winners in this pissing match and a horrible out come for some people who had invested their lives in this career.

Maybe I am totally wrong but here is the bottom line if I had worked there. You want me to risk my families income and my career to not cross a line that I disagree with totally and think has no chance of winning, which then does not work and the company and my career cease to exist, and, then you condem me for not following you on this suicidal path. Not where I come from.

 

[stingray]

what the heck

I lost my job as a mechanic for Bar Harbour due to eastern's demise, My father a Eastern 26yr+ Senior Captain on the MEC lost his job also, as he was forced out just before the strike, I personaly felt in the loss and have a little more inside info. Lorenzo took what was a stuggling but very viable company and screwed thousands by selling off the very vauable asset of which other airlines where druling over.
To those who think its OK to cross a line, your fellow pilots are trying to accomplish things like getting better working rules salary or other things to make it a better or fare working enviorment, by crossing the line "IT IS UNPROFESSIONAL" in stabbing the poeple you work with in the back for trying to get u a better work place.
PUBLISHER and the others even if u dont agree with that, go cross a picket line the next time there is one to cross and see what happens to your flying career if u have one. You most likely will never be able to get a decent flying job at any unionized company anywhere. There are many non-union airlines and corporate jobs that will not hire people who have crossed a line.
U need to think LONG TERM not short term. Do u have any clue at all the work enviorment u will be in when a strike is over and u are the one that crossed the picket line and now u have to fly with the guys who where on stike. Yea some of the things that will happen are stupid but it will make the next 20yrs (or however many yrs u have left) of your flying career a living HE##. Your name willmake it to the list forever. I'M sure the stories can be told. Is that worth it.
yes family comes before job, but i would never cross the line

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Maybe I am totally wrong but here is the bottom line if I had worked there. You want me to risk my families income and my career to not cross a line that I disagree with totally and think has no chance of winning, which then does not work and the company and my career cease to exist, and, then you condem me for not following you on this suicidal path. Not where I come from.

Do you realize you have every characteristic of a scab yourself? Perhaps that's why you defend them so. Being a union member is sorta like being an American. You say the pledge, and every four years you vote for who you want to be your leaders. You put your faith in them to represent you. They will never do it completely. Never. But it's part of the warts that come along with democracy. The second there is a fight, and the union as a whole votes to strike, IT BECOMES YOUR FIGHT, whether or not you agree with it or like the chances of it winning. You've already told everyone here of the foundation of your character. I was bummed the other day when someone questioned my character on this board, so you'd think I wouldn't be doing any name-calling. But you sir, are the epitome of scabness. I hope we never have the occasion of being in the same pilot group.

 

[Publishers]

Hugh

Hugh -- where do you think that being in a union is like being an American.

If I want to fly for American Airlines I have to join the union. There is no choice there. Secondly, in the examples I used, you are asking someone who is not in the fight, not in the union involved in the fight, to fight for what someone elses union thinks that they want. Then you want to punish me for not joining in the insanity. What gets me is that in America, anyone would not see the destructiveness of this whole process.

United airlines has proved, although we have a terrible habit of not learning things quickly, that there is not a major carrier today that can even undergo a strike.

As the world economies become merged, there will be fewer and fewer opportunities for unions to have success because the borders of competition will be diminished. As I pointed out earlier, just look at the automobile industry which was better organized and more of a single union situation to see the future. If you will look around, it is barely enough to be non-union as your phone call inquiry may be answered by someone in India and you do not know it.

I cannot have the "characteristics of scabs" because I would never have joined up in the first place. I have no interest in ALPA, APA, etc ever talking on my behalf. Secondly, my family always comes right after God and country and a labor group would not even make the list.

What gets me, I have no problem with those who want such a thing and who join up. Great for them. I think it would work better if they were like APA, company unions rather than industry oriented because there are too many situations that do not cross companies. I mean we call UPS and FEDEX airlines when the aviation is but a smaller part of what they do and their industry is totally different from a United or American.

You can join whatever you want but I have watched the ALPA act for years and they screw their own daily. According to your philosophy, one who is on the screwee side of the ledger and who's career just got slammed should williningly take it because it is for the greater good. Tell that to some other "brothers" on these boards.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hugh, you can't win an argument with an idiot... might as well give it up. Awesome post though!

 

[Typhoon1244]

Hugh, well said. [Applause]

Publishers, thank you for illustrating perfectly why labor unions exist.

 

[Publishers]

perhaps

Perhaps you should read some history of unionization. I don't think anyone back then had in mind creating unions for some captains making $300k a year to fly a 200 million dollar aircraft across the sky.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I cannot have the "characteristics of scabs" because I would never have joined up in the first place. QUOTE]

According to Merriam-Webster, you do:


Main Entry: [1]scab
Pronunciation: 'skab
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Swedish skabbr scab; akin to Old English sceabb scab, Latin scabere to scratch —more at SHAVE
Date: 13th century
1 : scabies of domestic animals
2 : a crust of hardened blood and serum over a wound
3 a : a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

 

[Freight Dog]

Perhaps you should read some history of unionization. I don't think anyone back then had in mind creating unions for some captains making $300k a year to fly a 200 million dollar aircraft across the sky.

"Son, are you stupid or something?"

 

[Typhoon1244]

Perhaps you should read some history of unionization. I don't think anyone back then had in mind creating unions for some captains making $300k a year to fly a 200 million dollar aircraft across the sky.

I agree that things have gotten out of hand here and there. Nevertheless, unions are necessary to protect employees from managers who think like you do...people to whom words like "loyalty" and "brotherhood" mean nothing.

 

[Publishers]

Clever

Clever Hugh -- I always admire your wit and thought.

You see I thought that unions were first started in this country to protect among others child laborers and others in servitude. They protected those who could not speak for themselves. Ones who were being forced to work 80 hours a week for peanuts in unsafe environments.

Now I have managed, owned, operated union and non union companies. At one company I was the union negotiator. In none of these companies did I ever have any trouble getting along with or even have any minor disputes with the excellent group of people that worked with me.

One of those companies was a 135 operator, one a major cargo airline. I think the reason that we had success was that I respected them and they respected me. I did not call them idiots or scabs, did not say they were jerks because they thought differently than I.

Somewhere along the line though, this industry got extremely screwed up. It is a complex and difficult business at best and one which has deteriorated over the years. The capital intensity that puts Delta at $26 billion or so in debt makes it almost impossible to get a return on assets. If you understand that pilot unions are not about protecting but merely another big business where money rules all. The unions became just like the companies. The legacy carriers are like dinosaurs just waiting to become extinct. It is a case of suicide not murder.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

At one company I was the union negotiator.

Interesting. What was your bargaining power?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

So which is it? Never would have joined the union, or the union negotiator? Perhaps somewhere between the two lies the truth.

 

[Publishers]

laugh

Just to give you an idea of how some things happen, one company that I served with in another industry had a contract with the operating engineers. It seemed like even though we never had any problems, they would always go on strike. We could never have an agreement.

When I took over, the head of the union pointed out to me that deer hunting season started every year around the same time. The bottom line is that they wanted the week off to go hunting and they were the vocal majority. One of the more vocal and obnoxious guys was one of the union leaders.

In the bathroom during a break, the union negotiator said that we were talking and nothing was going to apease this guy. In prior years, when they went on strike they would leave all their tools and their CB's etc in their company trucks until settling the following week. The bathroom agreement was that we would insist that we were going to the National Mediation Board offices to debate this but they would have to empty all their trucks immediately and remove their possessions from the companies site. This pissed off the non-hunters and they dropped the guy as union rep shortly thereafter. For the next five days, he and I played cards at the mediation board until settling on the deal with the a small detail settled by the outcome of the card game.

I asked and he agreed to change the date of contract renewal to get some small thing to make it look like he got something out of this. He suggested that we fire the one guy and that the union would not protest. He was as big a pain to them as to us.

The outcome was there has never been another strike. The point of this is there can be a great deal of speech around the table but a good deal of the time there are issues and individuals effecting things that are not part of the solution.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Okay, you were the guy on the other side of the table. That explains a lot.

Your example is of frivolous negotiating by a group with what seems to have been a lot of power. Sounds like the company let them get away with a lot of BS, as well as the union membership itself. I expect-no demand...that my elected representatives act to represent our interests as a whole with reason and fairness, not frivolty. I further expect the company I work for take a reasonably hard line to not let our group get away with frivolty. I expect a strike to be the last result of management being unreasonable and clearly unfair. If my company just rolls over to our every whim, how can I expect any sort of job security...I would be at a company with weak management. If they aren't taking a hard line, then how can I expect them to negotiate any other sort of business deals? In the end, collective bargaining can work fine when both parties act responsibly. I believe ALPA (warts and all) in general will represent me with reason. When I'm told by professional negotiators that my company is acting unreasonably and unfairly and that the only answer to a fair deal is a strike and my fellow members vote in agreement with that, I am obligated to strike with them. It's part of the commitment of membership. I hope I NEVER have to be in that position. But again, I beg the question (and you have yet to answer), what is my alternative to this process? I see none. Show me a viable one. Well, at least show me an option other than being a scab. And by the way, I didn't call you a scab because we "happen to disagree". It was because you clearly stated that you would cross a line if you didn't "agree with the fight or if you didn't like the chances of success". There's a difference. I disagree with good, honorable people regularly. It doesn't mean they deserve name-calling. However, when someone tells me they would violate a work action, they are a scab. I'll defer to Merriam-Webster on that one.