Alpa President Starting To Show Signs Of Leadership

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This lack of following you cite over and over indicates that ALPA doesn't connect with it target audience.

It takes two in any realtionship. Responsibility that is...

The leadership has lost the pilots. ALPA time has come to an end. It is just wasting our time and money and should cease to exist.

No.. the leadership is minding the store.. its the membeship that doesn't show up and never really did...

When the organization is about continuing the tradition of the organization and not about the pilots any longer it is done. ALPA should die.

And then what? Management can represent you?

Hopefully the EAST will lead the charge and end this dead horse called ALPA.

Hilarious.... what is the EAST going to do... show up at a meeting! that is the whole problem.. they don't show up...no one at any council SHOWS UP!!! here you are calling for the EAST membership to excecise leadership... but no wait... leadership is not your repsonsbility.. its the leaders fault...and we dont do anything including go to meetings and get involved.. we just complain about the leaders and demand the leaders shut down the organization...What.. are you calling for ALPA to commit sucide...??

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Incorrect Whiskey. If the system doesn't allow an opposition voice the system doesn't self correct. ALPA does not self correct as you claim is possible. If it did we would not be in this pit of inaction.

ALPA doesnt correct as you say because there is no system of checks and balances. The apathetic members don't call out the leaders. Hint FI message boards is not calling out your leaders. You have to create a political grassroots movement. Opps sorry.. am I suggsting you get involved. Sorry.. how silly of me to suggest you actually work to protect your own career...

An example of what I am referring to is age 60. The majority opposed the issue for many years now. The leadership disregarded that opposition. When ALPA had the chance to stop age 65 cold, ALPA instead choose the path the leadership wanted to allow age 65 by suppressing the age 60 majority with the bogus information education campaign which allowed the problem to build. And ALPA got what it wanted regardless of all the "kicking a scream" you referred to in your post. ALPA in this example prevented the majority view which it has done for too long now.

Your misconception of how ALPA fucntions on capitol hill is dissapointing at best.

I am going to get Age 60 pacifiers and hand them out to all the babies that keep whining about WOTM!

ALPA does not represent the pilots anymore. ALPA represents ALPA's interest and if those conflict with the pilots the pilots lose. Again ALPA do not represent it pilots. ALPA represents itself.

What are ALPA's interests? So back in the day when co-pilots only had a 1/2 vote did ALPA represent pilots? Or only kinda sorta halfway like?

It is ignorant to believe that ALPA is an organic self correcting organization. ALPA is a political mess that has failed the pilots for way to long.

ALPA is quite an effective and respected organization on CapHill....

It would be even more effective if its members weren't amatuers when it comes to career management...

Everything has a life cycle and ALPA's has come to it end.

That is deep Jack Handy.. no really...

And what will happen during the power vacuum? No ALPA and there will be instantaneous pay cuts and work rule changes... You cant be this dumb. I dont think you are...In fact I think you are smarter than you think you are...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA's leadership under Duane Worth and John Prater for the last nine years has been to serve ALPA without regard for the pilots it represents.

Maybe you should change the C&BL so you don't have to vote. Then you won't have a conscious about not voting and your responsibilites as an american won't being knawing at you.... Do you agree to be a custodian to democracy? Or do you reject democracy?

ALPA has failed to protect the bottom and the top of the profession. ALPA has sacrificed the middle's future forever for a few at the top during the short term during the last five years.

Let me guess... you are in the top and your son is just starting in the bottom...

It is going to be very interesting where the EAST goes now and what follows. The consequences for ALPA need to be as harsh as those it has dealt its pilots.

Tough guy....like what consequences... are you going to threaten to show up at a meeting & particapte in democracy?

'damn you ALPA... you better start behaving...or or or I am going to show up at an LEC meeting... Yeah that's right.. are you scared now ALPA... I am going to particapte in democracy..see how you like that you big bad ALPA monster...'

For the last five years ALPA has been remained untouched while every pilot it has represented has taken a beating.

oh the drama!! the humanity! unchecked democracy!!

Go ahead..show up at an LEC meeting... huh..punk..do ya feel lucky? well do YA PUNK!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What I am trying to get you to understand is that change within this union our union comes from us! This union is run by policy thru resolution.

huh what? you call me?

If you don't take the time to effect change you are essentially accepting what is. Yes I too was not happy with age 60 and how this was handled. If you are unhappy take it to the pilots in your council and get support, lots of it. Write a resolution

You want me to write a Rez O. Lewshun?

It sounds tough but it's not and this is how you effect change within this union. I am telling you this as a member of the ALPA BOD. Change within this union begins with the pilots.

Actually it takes a little bit of political skill.... here is the next rub.. with clowns like luckyohaveajob who do nothing but sport biotch... finally get the nerve to show up with a resolution.. it is so amatur hour (guys have shown up with a verbal resolutions before...something Rez O. Lewshun never reccomends) that it quickly gets squashed.. then these amatures go home pissed off cause they couldn't effect one stop shopping express check out change.

Being effective in managing your career takes time and effort... something many don't want or feel they have to do.... but hey its your career...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We are in agreement concerning Darth Prater. But the reason I believe the organization is flawed is because it can not be changed.

Of course nothing will change. First of all you will continue to try and fit reality to your expectations.. not the other way around. Untill you do this you are going to be pissed off and ineffective.

Second.. how about changing minority membership particaption levels.. oops sorry... not an option...

Try to replace Darth Prater through a recall. It can not be done.

Of course not. Because you will not show up at an LEC meeting. simple. done.

How many National Presidents have been replaced in ALPA history?

How many US presidents have been forced out without resignation? In addition how many have been removed because of political discontent?

They are not just elected they are groomed for the position. Even though Prater was chosen by the pilots he was groomed upon his arrival to tow the party line.

wrong. so very wrong...

None from the outside can change the party line. The EVP's and influential MEC's set the tone, no one else period.

Well no one can change the party line bcause they don't show up at LEC mmetings. And now you expect the EVP's and MEC's to reflect the pilots who don't particapte. I know you are not this dumb. I believe in you...


In addition, I thought it was Prater... now you are saying its the MEC's and EVP's? Wow the Star Chamber is getting bigger...and Leon is getting laaaaaarger....



(did I leave the iron on?)

That's why the organization is in decline. There is no freedom of speech, freedom to change what is wrong, or any ability change the organization away from the power brokers who do not represent the pilots, other than disillusion.

Wait...you are stupid. I don't believe in you anymore....

Yes we need a union. We need a national union that represents the pilots interests not the organizations interests. That is not happening today in ALPA. And it will not happen in the future with ALPA.

Hyberbole!! "We need change but I am not willing to change! ALPA must come to my house and serve me so I can tell them what they should do even though I have no clue about what the real world is like..... I am Archie Bunker on Roids!!!"

ALPA is not an organic organization adapting to the needs of the individual pilots. ALPA exists for ALPA's sake not the pilots.

ALPA: serving the special needs of 60,000 pilots...one at a time...

 

[PCL_128]

So he is doing this purely for his own personal benefit...

No, having heard him talk about it ad nauseam, I'm pretty convinced that he actually thinks this is the right thing to do for everyone. Unfortunately, he's gone about things the wrong way. Rather than convincing the membership to follow him (good leadership), he's instead told them to %*$& off and just do as he says (monumentally bad leadership).

Man, we have gone over this... are you going to get over it...?? Move on....

Rez, I've been arguing with the RJDC wankers for over 5 years. I'm not likely to just move on.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Darth Prater has got to go. Lets see it happen because I got $100 says it won't in the next year or two.

Why don't you show up at an LEC meeting...and keep the $100...... who knows the career you save might be your own!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

He's taking care of who he cares about, while you're falling right into his plan..........

That is right... I am a unwilling tool in his plan! I am connected, informed, I vote..... I think and use free will.....

Right into his plan.....

(insert Dr, Evil muuuuhaha laugh here....)

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No, having heard him talk about it ad nauseam, I'm pretty convinced that he actually thinks this is the right thing to do for everyone.

Have you received a gov't affairs breifing on the issue?

Unfortunately, he's gone about things the wrong way. Rather than convincing the membership to follow him (good leadership),

Valid point..... however, It would be a bit unrealistic for Prater to develop a level of trust with the membership so soon inthe game.. this age60 issue was dumped on him from day one... yeah he signed up for it but to develop a repetoire (sp) so soon its a bit unrealistic..

In additon, if the membership was bit more savvy and connected when it came to ALPA poltiics there wouldn't be so much anger.....anger is by product of ignorance and fear...

he's instead told them to %*$& off and just do as he says (monumentally bad leadership).

got a reference? I am not saying he did not...but I want to see it..

Rez, I've been arguing with the RJDC wankers for over 5 years. I'm not likely to just move on.

They are pretty good at wanking...

 

[PCL_128]

Have you received a gov't affairs breifing on the issue?

Not in an official capacity, but I spoke privately with Mr. Voyack about it a couple of months ago.

Valid point..... however, It would be a bit unrealistic for Prater to develop a level of trust with the membership so soon inthe game.. this age60 issue was dumped on him from day one... yeah he signed up for it but to develop a repetoire (sp) so soon its a bit unrealistic..

Agreed, but the attempt wasn't even made. The polling was a shot in the dark hoping that the membership would back him up after all of the pension decimations. When that didn't go as hoped, he back-doored everything rather than communicate effectively with the membership. Prater actually started out ahead of the game in PR. The rank-and-file uneducated pilots hated Duane and saw Prater as their regular guy, line pilot savior. He managed to destroy all of that good-will with some truly horrible politics.

In additon, if the membership was bit more savvy and connected when it came to ALPA poltiics there wouldn't be so much anger.....anger is by product of ignorance and fear...

I'm not so sure. I've heard all of the same arguments that the EC did, some of it directly from Prater, and my opinion still remains that the ALPA policy in favor of Age-60 shouldn't change. We can maintain our policy in favor of Age-60 and still have an influence over any rule change that does happen.

got a reference? I am not saying he did not...but I want to see it..

Come on Rez, I wasn't being literal. He didn't actually say out loud "%$* off," but he might as well have through his actions. By taking several polls and then ignoring the results, it's no different than telling the members to just keep their mouths shut and follow him.

 

[Huck]

Brotha man, I don't know who you are talking about, but our LEC meetings are held at midnight, and they're standing room only.

Man, we have gone over this... are you going to get over it...?? Move on....

That quote, that sentence right there, is going to be the downfall of our national organization. Oh don't worry, we'll still have a union, just not yours. Think it won't happen? It already did once.

National ALPA exists to lobby. When national ALPA doesn't lobby, it loses its reason to exist. Get over that.

p.s. I'd dearly love to know who is getting flight pay loss to type on this board, and the other one.

 

[PCL_128]

p.s. I'd dearly love to know who is getting flight pay loss to type on this board, and the other one.

Do what?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Brotha man, I don't know who you are talking about, but our LEC meetings are held at midnight, and they're standing room only.



That quote, that sentence right there, is going to be the downfall of our national organization. Oh don't worry, we'll still have a union, just not yours. Think it won't happen? It already did once.

National ALPA exists to lobby. When national ALPA doesn't lobby, it loses its reason to exist. Get over that.

p.s. I'd dearly love to know who is getting flight pay loss to type on this board, and the other one.

Not me Huck, I'm off today.

WD.

 

[Huck]

Yeah, that's just the bitch in me talking.

Though in the weeks after the policy change, there were some real suspicious posters over at APC - multi-page, multi-paragraph posts spouting the exact party line over and over. From guys who previously would give you just a paragraph or two. Somebody would post against the MEC and they'd pounce immediately. Didn't they have any grass to cut?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Not in an official capacity, but I spoke privately with Mr. Voyack about it a couple of months ago.

What did he say? Are you suggesting that ALPA could have stood firm against Age60 changes and still been effective on the hill? The political fall out would have been acceptable?

Agreed, but the attempt wasn't even made. The polling was a shot in the dark hoping that the membership would back him up after all of the pension decimations. When that didn't go as hoped, he back-doored everything rather than communicate effectively with the membership. Prater actually started out ahead of the game in PR. The rank-and-file uneducated pilots hated Duane and saw Prater as their regular guy, line pilot savior. He managed to destroy all of that good-will with some truly horrible politics.

Well maybe Prater isn't the guy to be in there? We know how he got there.... (bad UAL bad....) How do you think DW would've handled it?

I wouldn't say Prater backed doored everythink... there was an info campaign distributed to the membership...

My iue is the membership is so one issue orientated. They hated DW because he wasn't the 'share the pain' kinda guy.. and now there is a new guy, Prater, nad he is no good.

I mean when is the membership going to take some repsonsibility...

I'm not so sure. I've heard all of the same arguments that the EC did, some of it directly from Prater, and my opinion still remains that the ALPA policy in favor of Age-60 shouldn't change. We can maintain our policy in favor of Age-60 and still have an influence over any rule change that does happen.

So the rule is going to change... it is just how we feel about ourselves as the rule changes...????

That is like personal preference on how to handle your rapist.. Some say fight.. maybe gouge out an eye.. but that may just piss him off even more.. others say lay there in silence..that resisting only makes the act more painful...

Come on Rez, I wasn't being literal. He didn't actually say out loud "%$* off," but he might as well have through his actions. By taking several polls and then ignoring the results, it's no different than telling the members to just keep their mouths shut and follow him.

Fair enough....


Age 60 to me is a big bump in the road.... but to waste too much time on it is futile... Open Skies is the Solid Brick wall that will stop our careers dead in its tracks....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Brotha man, I don't know who you are talking about, but our LEC meetings are held at midnight, and they're standing room only.

I've heard of pilots hanging out in the rec room next door while the meeting was in progress....

That quote, that sentence right there, is going to be the downfall of our national organization. Oh don't worry, we'll still have a union, just not yours. Think it won't happen? It already did once.

What.............. the APA?

National ALPA exists to lobby. When national ALPA doesn't lobby, it loses its reason to exist. Get over that.

ok.... what is your point?

p.s. I'd dearly love to know who is getting flight pay loss to type on this board, and the other one.

I know... what really gets me though is why use balck helicopters? Soooo expensive....I mean ALPA could easily rent a black van and park outside your house and run its 'message board misinformation campaign' from there.... or maybe...


psst.. Huck................check out your window... Is the 'pest exterminator' there....

 

[Full of LUV]

It's a matter of prespective....

Age 60 to me is a big bump in the road.... but to waste too much time on it is futile... Open Skies is the Solid Brick wall that will stop our careers dead in its tracks....

If your 50 and up, most likely a captain, then age 65 is a bump, if your junior and a CP, then it is a 5 year holding pattern in which you delay upgrade, probably until after your family is grown and out the door. To us, age 65 is a power/money grab and I would have preferred ALPA spent it's resources fighting the "windfall" to some pilots on the backs of others even if it had no influence in the end. Now, I won't give ALPA another dime of my money as they use it to stab me.

Rez, by your logic, open skies is probably an eventuality, so why not support it now in congress and help "influence" it's emergence? Oh yeah, because that might hurt the Captains in the union.

If ALPA really thought that the age 65 thing is inevitable, and not just because "everyone else is doing it" then why not try and craft the rule change over a 10 year plan like fly to age 61 until 2009, then fly to 62 until 2011, fly to age 63 until 2013 etc. At least then there is no specific wind fall group, but, oh yeah, that doesn't serve the power players as well does it.

I think the upper half of this union is completely out of touch and they are serving up the end of ALPA with their stances and implementations.
LUV

 

[ualdriver]

To us, age 65 is a power/money grab and I would have preferred ALPA spent it's resources fighting the "windfall" to some pilots on the backs of others even if it had no influence in the end. Now, I won't give ALPA another dime of my money as they use it to stab me.

You would have preferred that. Unfortunately, ALPA isn't your personal union. The latest poll concerning Age 60 showed that the membership wanted ALPA not to "fight to the end," but to take part in the rule making process once the fight was lost. If you don't believe me, search on my screenname. I've posted two questions from that poll twice already on this forum. One of them directed ALPA to do the opposite of what you personally want as you state above.

Rez, by your logic, open skies is probably an eventuality, so why not support it now in congress and help "influence" it's emergence? Oh yeah, because that might hurt the Captains in the union.

I too believe open skies is inevitable. Just as I thought Age 65 was/is. But I still want ALPA to use all of its resources to delay/divert/stall until it becomes inevitable. When it gets to that point, then I want them to have as much influence as possible to make the rules as favorable to U.S. pilots as possible. I don't want them to support it "now." Later, when politically unavoidable, but not now.

If ALPA really thought that the age 65 thing is inevitable, and not just because "everyone else is doing it" then why not try and craft the rule change over a 10 year plan like fly to age 61 until 2009, then fly to 62 until 2011, fly to age 63 until 2013 etc. At least then there is no specific wind fall group, but, oh yeah, that doesn't serve the power players as well does it.

Because you're assuming ALPA shows up on the Hill and says "jump" and all of Congress says, "how high?" That's not the way it works, and you should know that. There's a million different "schemes" that would accomplish what you want, but they're politically unattainable. I have little doubt, however, that ALPA will get some things that we want because we're taking part in the process.

I think the upper half of this union is completely out of touch and they are serving up the end of ALPA with their stances and implementations.

You could make that argument for any decisive, political issue, covering everything from union politics to local town hall politics. One half wins, one half loses. The half that loses says their representational body is "out of touch." The other half feels fairly represented because they won. I guess when I'm on the losing side of decisive issues, I don't threaten to secede from the Union.

 

[Freight Dog]

Man, I really try to stay away from this crap. I really do...

Look UALDriver... you can't tell me that ALPA wouldn't have a voice or influence in implementation of Age 65 rule if it maintained opposition.

Here are at least two reasons:

- Duane Woerth who mind you was a staunch opponent of raising the retirement age, was appointed as a chairman of ARC pertaining to Age 60 rule.

- You cannot just spring this change upon ALPA because the rule change itself will have a huge impact on CBA's which will all have to be renegotiated regardless whether ALPA supports or opposes any rule changes.

Besides, the Administrator only said... they intend to put forth a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking to change the Age 60 rule.

... and ALPA throws in the towel, calls it unavoidable, etc. Interesting... especially since Darth Prater already stated during his campaign that he supports changing the Age 60, but that he will support the majority's wishes.

Now... if all you expect out of ALPA is stall tactics until something becomes "inevitable" and then throw in the towel, I gotta ask... didn't ALPA already outlive its usefulness?

 

[BeCareful!]

As a recent CAL upgrade, I can tell you that without a doubt, Darth Prater's own self interest is seeing to it that his contemporaries, those he will represent as a first priority, see a huge windfall! There are those senior members that he cares about, and then there is everybody else. If you're in the left seat and have 20 years seniority and are facing retirement, the only thing you care about is staying right where you. There is NO other issue really and Prater knows this. They won't fight off overseas control, cabotage, or anthing else! They'll use those things to their own benefit.

He's taking care of who he cares about, while you're falling right into his plan.

Guys: Call your union and ask whether or not financial analysis of age 65 effects is underway. I've learned that it is at CAL and that Prater's minions are working hard to try to make this look less lopsided. It's really ugly.

Thank you for confirming what most of us have been thinking all along about Prater.