Alpa Executive Council Says No To AAA's Request To Vacate Arbitration Award.

[PCL_128]

PCL 128 do you work for either airline?

Nope. Just a former ALPA rep that's pissed off at how the Association is being torn apart by this crap.

 

[Turtle21]

Nope. Just a former ALPA rep that's pissed off at how the Association is being torn apart by this crap.

The Association is a Ponzi scheme whose time has come and gone.


A union that can't define seniority, but rather indulges itself the luxury of pawning it off on an arbitrator, doesn't serve any purpose but its own. Nor can it.

 

[FDJ2]

I personally disagree with their decision, but it was theirs to make. Time to put this to rest now and for the two pilot groups to work together towards a contract.

Just out of curiousity, do you disagree with the EC's decision or Nicolau's?

I agree, that it is long past due that this issue be put to rest, however I fully expect the East MEC to continue its efforts to try and gain some leverage, via any means possible, to force the West back to the table, but like I've said before that train has left the station.

This issue, I'm afraid, will be put to rest once the East comes to the realization that further desperate attempts to reopen negotiations is more harmful then accepting the arbitration decision they agreed to abide by, given by the arbitrator they agreed to have render that decision in the first place

 

[FDJ2]

Nope. Just a former ALPA rep that's pissed off at how the Association is being torn apart by this crap.

PCL, keep it in perspective, the Association is not being torn apart by this decision, the Association has weathered far worse storms than this. Yes there are 4,500 or so upset East pilots, but that was not the doing of the Association. JMHO, but the East MEC bungled this integration horribly, not the Association.

 

[PCL_128]

Just out of curiousity, do you disagree with the EC's decision or Nicolau's?

Both, actually. I believe that Nicolau didn't adhere to ALPA merger policy and handed the West a major windfall by not including sufficient fences in the award. I also believe that the EC should have recognized this and determined that the award was invalid due to the arbitrator not adhering to the required provisions of the policy. Of course, this is all a matter of opinion and interpretation, so I can understand the EC coming to a different conclusion. It's certainly not an easy situation.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, keep it in perspective, the Association is not being torn apart by this decision, the Association has weathered far worse storms than this. Yes there are 4,500 or so upset East pilots, but that was not the doing of the Association. JMHO, but the East MEC bungled this integration horribly, not the Association.

FDJ, I agree that the Association isn't really at fault, but that doesn't change the fact that we are facing our first viable decertification campaign since American broke away half a century ago. Losing the AAA pilot group would be a major blow to the Association, and I'm afraid that it's a real possibility.

I do agree, however, that the East really screwed the pooch on this. Hopefully someone in Herndon can figure out how to minimize the damage from this mess.

 

[Fast43]

The Association is a Ponzi scheme whose time has come and gone.


A union that can't define seniority, but rather indulges itself the luxury of pawning it off on an arbitrator, doesn't serve any purpose but its own. Nor can it.

Clearly you would like to hide behind the explicit definition of seniority as it is convienent for you to do so. with the mixing of airlines work groups "seniority" lists are no longer true reflections of "seniority" the AAA list had already reflected this. A 10 year pilot at 2 different airlines usually have different choices available to them.

Please do not argue for all airline terms to be interpreted literally or we will truly have to "Bid" actual dollar amounts on the flying that we are willing to do each month.

I'm sure that wouldn't work very well.

 

[Turtle21]

You didn't address the point. ALPA exists for itself. It legally has established a scheme wereby it can pin the blame on everyone else and still get paid, even though it never delivers anything. If it not obligated to define seniority, the definition of everything else is pointless.

 

[Denizen]

Mayby PCl 128 could just write a check to the east side and score a cool jet job

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Both, actually. I believe that Nicolau didn't adhere to ALPA merger policy and handed the West a major windfall by not including sufficient fences in the award. I also believe that the EC should have recognized this and determined that the award was invalid due to the arbitrator not adhering to the required provisions of the policy. Of course, this is all a matter of opinion and interpretation, so I can understand the EC coming to a different conclusion. It's certainly not an easy situation.

Therein lies your problem!! Now from current rep to former rep, have you even bothered to read the ENTIRE award?? All of the protection were contained within the award itself. You seem to be one of those who fails to understand the real difference between longevity and seniority further as a former rep you should also know merger policy and that in 1991 Date of hire was removed!! Further, you should know and fully understand all of the dynamics of this unique case and why the ruling came down as it did.

Now how can the UAL, NWA and the DAL merger committees all state that given all of the information they conclude that the award is fair yet you as a former rep never having even read the entire award feel justified in your assessment that it violates section 45???

WD`

 

[FDJ2]

I do agree, however, that the East really screwed the pooch on this. Hopefully someone in Herndon can figure out how to minimize the damage from this mess.

LCC may or may not break away from ALPA, I believe that ultimately cooler heads will prevail.

Regardless, ALPA needs to maintain its nuetral position. Both MEC's had an equal and fair opportunity to integrate their lists through negotiation and when that failed through mediation and arbitration. Nicolau wasn't thrust upon the AAA pilots, they agreed to have him arbitrate this integration.

We're all big boys, we make our decisions and we have to live by the choices we make. The AAA MEC chose their strategy and argued their case in the venue they wanted overseen by the arbitrator they agreed too. It didn't work out the way they had hoped. They went all in with a strategy that clearly violated ALPA's policy. When warned by Nicolau to present a new argument, they refused to budge. The time for negotiations has passed, they wanted Nicolau to make the decision and now he has.

Will this lead to decertification. I doubt it. Half of the AAA pilots have already upgraded and none of the AAA pilots lost their seat or relative seniority. To the contrary, most of the AAA pilots gained a little bit of relative seniority. 2/3rds of all the upgrade opportunities will still go to the East and when cooler heads prevail the East will realize that decertification, even if they could muster the votes to do it, wont change a thing.

Integrations are never pretty, but this to shall pass.

I leave you with the last word on the matter.

 

[waveflyer]

You didn't address the point. ALPA exists for itself. It legally has established a scheme wereby it can pin the blame on everyone else and still get paid, even though it never delivers anything. If it not obligated to define seniority, the definition of everything else is pointless.

Are you saying that ALPA national should impose it's will instead of providing a process for the individual MEC's to work it out?

I think you are only upset with ALPA's lack of effectiveness since 9/11. That's being corrected- but make no mistake-- It's all about setting the stage for 2009 and a more labor law-abiding administration, major airline hiring boom coinciding with a pilot shortage at the regionals.

Another said this- Seniority is not 'years in service' - I choose to define it as 'how many pilots do i have junior to me?'

Everyone here knows what i think of our current seniority system- It favors only the clear winners, fractures our unity everywhere else, and is being used against us by managements nationwide. We should start acting like we're smart and can adapt with the times. But a new adage says: "pilots are the stupidest smart people you'll ever meet. Rather be the highest paid at $90k than the lowest paid at $100k"

We've seen what 'looking out for #1' has gotten us....

// and the world keeps spinnin' .....

 

[ironspud]

You just can't believe how refreshing it is to see the underdog AWA group winning this fight...and doing it "smart". Nice job.

Good on ya!!

 

[Turtle21]

You just can't believe how refreshing it is to see the underdog AWA group winning this fight...and doing it "smart". Nice job.

Good on ya!!

I agree with your sentiments that ALPA has one set of member pilots winning and one loosing, and that the "good on ya" doesn't belong to the EC, but to the winning set of pilots instead.

 

[Turtle21]

Are you saying that ALPA national should impose it's will instead of providing a process for the individual MEC's to work it out?

I'm not saying what ALPA should do. I'm saying we should know what the hell authorities of ALPA we are paying for (well I don't pay for it since I am on Mil leave for four more years).

ALPA is an association and as such has no authority or responsibility to define seniority across separated, but associated, member pilots groups. They are not a union and as such they are not authorized by their voting members to define seniority across separated pilot groups. ALPA has an interest in pilots having the feelings of being a union, but it is not. ALPA, as defined, must do nothing more than implore separated pilot groups to fight it out disputes amongst themselves, and to seek a third party to resolve it if they fail to do it themselves. Pilots pay rather handsomely to have a neutral from beginning to end. But we do get a shiny magazine.

The poor schmuxs at COMAIR and other ALPA stepchild airlines have know for years that ALPA is not a union. It is good to see the underdog win once in a while.