ALPA Defeats Emirates in Rent-A-Code Scheme

[Buford]

Ok, I may have got the two swap thing wrong, will need to check. What I do know is that swapping is nothing like in the US and there are many restrictions. Nope, he's no purser or cabin crew. However, I know all about their schedules because my sister is cabin crew and their rosters are way worse. If you haven't noticed, the information to the left is all his. I thought about using a different tag but I didn't want to pay the extra $10 for a new account.

At the end of the day Emirates is a business and they have every dirham accounted for down to the last fil. They've got every procedure and cabin item maximized to make money or reduce cost and they do it all so well. They're expansionist because they can be. They pour huge money into marketing, advertising and sponsorship because they want the prestige of being a global brand. When I worked in the US as a corporate flight attendant in 2000 no-one had heard of Emirates, fast forward 13 years and they've entered the market in a huge way. Kudos to them, they do it well, and they are far from stupid. They will never have bases outside Dubai because the employees of Emirates keep this particular Emirate going. Personally, I'd love to see the US airlines taking advantage of the Asian and SE Asian markets but they can't seem to do it fast enough or don't seem to realize the opportunity that is there. Emirates have no restrictions on who they employ and where they employ from. They can keep young guys and girls in the cabin because they have a huge global supply available of young people wanting to sign on. The product doesn't suffer because if those cabin crew don't deliver then they're quickly replaced by the next Korean girl, Egyptian guy, Filipina, Ethiopian or Spanish girl. It's only living as an expat that I've discovered how truly fortunate I was to be born with the passport that I have.

With all due respect Green, I think you may be experiencing the 'honeymoon' phase that we all have in Dubai. Wait until you hit the 7-10 year mark unless, that is, you're closer to retirement and then Emirates is probably a great way to end your career. In our case, we're looking at another few decades, combine that with our current 11+ years in Dubai and it isn't so appealing.

Getting back to the thread...the US Govt should continue to travel on and support US airlines.

 

[General Lee]

Ok, I may have got the two swap thing wrong, will need to check. What I do know is that swapping is nothing like in the US and there are many restrictions. Nope, he's no purser or cabin crew. However, I know all about their schedules because my sister is cabin crew and their rosters are way worse. If you haven't noticed, the information to the left is all his. I thought about using a different tag but I didn't want to pay the extra $10 for a new account.

At the end of the day Emirates is a business and they have every dirham accounted for down to the last fil. They've got every procedure and cabin item maximized to make money or reduce cost and they do it all so well. They're expansionist because they can be. They pour huge money into marketing, advertising and sponsorship because they want the prestige of being a global brand. When I worked in the US as a corporate flight attendant in 2000 no-one had heard of Emirates, fast forward 13 years and they've entered the market in a huge way. Kudos to them, they do it well, and they are far from stupid. They will never have bases outside Dubai because the employees of Emirates keep this particular Emirate going. Personally, I'd love to see the US airlines taking advantage of the Asian and SE Asian markets but they can't seem to do it fast enough or don't seem to realize the opportunity that is there. Emirates have no restrictions on who they employ and where they employ from. They can keep young guys and girls in the cabin because they have a huge global supply available of young people wanting to sign on. The product doesn't suffer because if those cabin crew don't deliver then they're quickly replaced by the next Korean girl, Egyptian guy, Filipina, Ethiopian or Spanish girl. It's only living as an expat that I've discovered how truly fortunate I was to be born with the passport that I have.

With all due respect Green, I think you may be experiencing the 'honeymoon' phase that we all have in Dubai. Wait until you hit the 7-10 year mark unless, that is, you're closer to retirement and then Emirates is probably a great way to end your career. In our case, we're looking at another few decades, combine that with our current 11+ years in Dubai and it isn't so appealing.

Getting back to the thread...the US Govt should continue to travel on and support US airlines.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for your post.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Green]

Buford,

I totally get it. You are burned out on Dubai. Dubai is culturally bankrupt. I agree. But you are not being completely fair with your complaints.

You talk about the horrible rosters, lack of swaps, tiring layovers, etc. I've been here for years and I never fly more than 700 hours per year. I average 14-15 days off per month plus a few rest days. Minimum layover is 24 hours. The hotels Emirates uses are so much nicer than any US carrier it's not even comparable. The swap rules are restricted by legality. You won't find much difference back in the States. It will not let you break a legal requirement, and in addition it will not let you swap into overtime pay and it won't let you go from Far East to ULR Westbound without a 100+ hour break in between. That rule is there to keep people from complaining about fatigue due to severe time zone changes. Also when your husband goes back home to work for brand x he won't have a car and driver come pick him up and take him to the airport.

Again I undersand that you are sick and tired of Dubai. That is totally understandable. At times I feel the exact same way. But lets say Emirates offered your husband a base in New York, LAX, SFO, SEA, ORD, DFW, or MIA. Would you change your mind about Emirates? My guess is he wouldn't even consider another airline if those bases were available. I think answering that question helps someone identify if the problem is the job or Dubai.

I'm not in my honeymoon phase. I passed that, entered my disillusioned phase, and then finally reached my "realistic phase." When i have a week off I leave Dubai. I get out of here during vacation weeks and I try not to waste all my money on the BS hotels/spas/etc. I actually enjoy the layovers quite a bit. During my down time I have hobbies which keep me busy.

I don't mean to attack your post and wish you the best of luck. Just trying to point out the flip side.

 

[uba757]

Mrs. Buford with all do respect, please research the information you are trying to use as an example before posting it! Is this place perfect? Far from it in my opinion but the PRO'S still out weight the CON'S! I am sorry you are so unhappy in DXB and I wish you all the luck in the world!

 

[Green]

Buford,

In case you do go back it would be really cool if you could update us on the transition. I'm sure lots of foreign pilots on here are curious about going back but not sure what to do.

A few things to think hard about before going home. Reading your husband's experience it looks like he hasn't had much US Airline time. Maybe less than 1 year? So his, and your, experience has been corporate and Emirates. I'm guessing both of you would be in for a shock if he took a position with a legacy back home. Here would be a few of my biggest concerns if I was in your shoes.

-Your paycheck would probably look something like $1700 on the 15th and $2,200 on the 31st. If you go somewhere like US Airways/Spirit it would be dramatically less. Regardless of where you go your total monthly paycheck will be less than your Emirates housing allowance. Sounds like he's in his 40's now so it's safe to assume he will never make as much as he is making right now.

-Your husband would be on reserve every month. Not once a year like at EK. If he's lucky he might get off reserve in under a year and have a junior line. Those generally have non commutable trips, fatiguing trips, low credit trips, undesirable layovers, fewer days off. Also he will be staying in rat trap hotels. Best Westerns, Holiday Inns, maybe an old Raddison. No more Jumeirah Himalayas, Hiltons, etc.

-Unless you choose to live in Anchorage, Dallas, Chicago, New York, Atlanta he will probably be commuting. That either sitting reserve in another city or bidding 4 day trips out of another city. You might not see him more than 11 days per month. He might have to commute out the night before and come back the day after he finishes. Turing a 4 day trip into a 6 day trip. Plus he will need to shell out a few hundred per month for a crashpad full of bunk beds.

-No schooling allowance or company provided villas. Sure schools are expensive in Dubai. But doesn't the company give you about 10k/year per kid? You are looking at a bit out of pocket to put them in the very best schools. Getting into the best US Universities after a top private school in Dubai will be much easier. What kind of education experience will your kids get back home? To live in a neighborhood with good schools in the cities mentioned above you are looking at shelling out maybe 1million plus for a home that can house a family of 4. Or you can live in a cheaper neighborhood and try to pay private school tuition plus bills on 4k per month. There's a reason the US ranks so poorly when it comes to education.

-Non revving is not what it is at Emirates. Here you can easily jump on a plane to Phuket, Barcelona, Maldives, etc in first class or business and enjoy a holiday or just a few days away from Dubai. Getting anywhere on US passes is nearly impossible. All 40,000+ employees at your new airline have access to First and business class. As you know only Captains and VP's can fly First Class at Emirates. FO's and Pursers have access to Business. Everybody else is stuck in economy. This creates empty seats for you and your fam. Not so in the US. Start getting used to a middle seat in coach and expect your husband to be sitting in the jumpseat. The Flight Attendant who has been there 3 years will get that first class seat before you. I'm guessing you and your husband would not even consider flying economy now?

The big positives would be living in the US again and the cockpit/training environment would be much better for your husband. It's a really tough call. Hopefully you guys have saved a lot of money to make the transition easier. I would meet with a financial advisor before doing it just so you have a very clear picture of what your costs would be. I have about 3 decades to go, don't have kids, and the idea of going back seems very tough financially. But to each his/her own. Best of luck.

If you are tired of Dubai you might want to consider China Southern (foreign bases), anything in Japan, or maybe Korean. At least you can maintain your lifestyle while living in Europe or the US/Canada.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

If you are tired of Dubai you might want to consider China Southern (foreign bases), anything in Japan, or maybe Korean. At least you can maintain your lifestyle while living in Europe or the US/Canada.

Agreed...! Starting at the bottom at a major in the US is a young man's game (or women LOL!) I can understand you being homesick, but the older your husband is, the lesser the chances to recover financially from that move, professionally as well, just commuting to a junior base and dealing with the bad schedules of a junior line are enough to make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end....! Look at ALL your possibilities, the contract market offers some very good options for those of us that grew up at the time when apple and blackberries where just fruit...!

 

[typhoonpilot]

A couple of excellent posts there by Green and Buford ( well his wife ).
Green, I know Buford well. He is one of the senior Americans at Emirates. So Buford's wife's post are real. And Green, that really was an excellent look at what one might encounter when returning to a U.S. major. We do tend to forget how good we really have it at Emirates with all the "perks".

So, since I seem to be an oft mentioned person in this thread and since I was a very prominent supporter of pilots from the U.S. going to Emirates I will shed some light on the reason I am leaving.

DP sort of hit the nail on the head. When I came to Emirates I knew that I needed an exit strategy. Staying in the UAE for the rest of my life was not something I really wanted to do. I felt, and have said here and elsewhere, that a 10-15 year timeline is what one should look at when coming to Emirates. One of those exit strategies has been available for a couple of years now, but I deferred because it is very difficult to leave such a stable job with good benefits.

EK is a very good job and I am relatively senior, as well as being in one of the best positions in the airline ( Standards Captain ). That basically means I only work bankers hours when I am in the sim; I hand pick one layover trip and one turn-around trip I want to fly 2 months in advance; and I hand pick a string of days off every month. Still, I work hard since there are a lot of extra duties that are entailed in my roll.

One of the reasons I am leaving is that I have basically risen to the highest position I will ever get to in the airline. The next step up would be a management job, which I am not really interested in. Nor to which I really aspire. I like what I do and it challenges me professionally. I could easily stay in the role for a number of years without getting bored. The job I am going to will be challenging and rewarding in many more ways. It will provide a lot of variety in flying, both different types and different locations. So it is a very exciting move.

This job came open a few years before I was hoping it might. I really wanted to stay at Emirates long enough to "retire" and get travel benefits from them. So from that aspect it has been a difficult decision. But when really good jobs like this come open one needs to be prepared to make the jump. I deferred as long as I could, but now I need to take it or it might not ever be there again.

There are also a number of personal reasons in play that make the move now a good one. The job I am going to offers more time in the States; more quality time with my kids; roughly similar earnings; probably more enriching environment with more professional respect (and I need to be careful how that is taken because I have nothing but deep respect for my immediate superiors); more opportunity for recreational flying; more time to spend with my elderly mother; plus; plus; plus.

In my time at Emirates I have been able to grow professionally far more than I would have at any carrier in the States. That is one of the reasons I have been such a big advocate of pilots from the States coming to EK. Most of them have been able to do the same. We have guys in their early 30s flying left seat in a B777/A330 worldwide. A few more senior ones have checked out on the A380. There have also been opportunities in training, recruiting, flight ops tech, etc that many have taken advantage of. Professional opportunities we just weren’t afforded in the seniority rat race that exists at U.S. legacies.

I am not leaving because I hate Emirates or that I hate Dubai, sorry if that disappoints anyone. It is a positive move both professionally and personally.



Typhoonpilot

 

[Buford]

Thanks TP.

Green thanks for your posts. You've given me a few things to consider and I appreciate the response. You're right, we were about two years at the airline and we lived on the meager salary so we know how awful that can be. I take it you're a first officer to be getting the rosters you have as you're on the same fleet as my husband. I'd say you've been here maybe three years? You also don't have kids so your perspective at this point in your life is quite different to ours. Believe me, I know. I didn't realize families even existed in Dubai when I first came here as a single gal in 1996! Uba757 I think you were somewhat harsh in your response so I'll try and clarify a few things due to my 'lack of research'.

I think some of you have read more into my posts than is meant. For what it's worth I thought it might be useful to offer a different perspective on the whole EK/US thing that seems to occur on the board. To be honest, I'm not even American. Although my husband is born & bred in the US and my kids were also born there we have no particular 'home' to head to so if we had to live in a junior base somewhere then we'd choose one based on the best cost of living and quality of life we could afford. Also, sorry to disappoint you all but I'm certainly not homesick. I've lived away from my own 'home' since 1996 - I left in my early 20's to join Emirates as a flight attendant. I don't dislike Dubai, I have a wealth of friends and a great support network and I'm grateful for the opportunities and experiences it has given us. However, I've had the luxury to see Dubai and Emirates from all angles. I know the hours I was flying in 1996 and it was somewhere in the 60-65 range - I still have the rosters to prove it. My sister is doing 100+ a month. The pilot rosters are maximized to schedule right up until the point of overtime - but never over. My main point in all of this is that these rosters aren't sustainable as you get older but Emirates won't change anything. It works for them and they're making money at the expense of their overworked employees. Thank goodness for the driver taking you to and from work or else there'd even be more accidents on the road.

There are many here who are drinking the company Kool Aid and that's great for you guys but what I've learnt after 11+ years in the sandpit is don't become complacent. This cozy life you lead today may not be here tomorrow. We're here because it works for us now but we aren't naive enough to think that what we have now will be the same again in 5 years time. As Typhoon has already mentioned, have an exit strategy.

 

[Green]

Your perspective makes sense considering you haven't lived the US airline life. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but $210,000+ USD per year at 65 hours a month disappeared after 9/11. You won't find it unless you have 25 years of seniority. You might have to exchange your husband for one who already has 20 years in at a Legacy airline. Maybe General Lee? I'm kidding! Bad joke.

But all kidding aside you might be surprised by what the airlines are paying in the US. US Airways is hiring. First year pay is $3,000/month BEFORE taxes. After 4 years it's $5,200/month again before taxes and that assumes he is on the 767.

At the high end of the scale you have Delta. If your husband could get hired you are looking at about 5k/month first year and 9k/month after 4 years. Not bad at all but definitely nowhere near what you are making right now.

Your husband will never fly 100+ hours per month at EK. Your sister does but so do flight attendants in the US. He probably works harder at EK than he would back home but he also makes a lot more than he would back home. Tell him to spend more time on the swap board and he can alter his line from high to med-low time.

I'm certainly no kook aid drinker. I can complain with the best of them. Emirates uses me and in return I use them. There are no happy family airlines in the US (maaaaybe SWA). Use every benefit you can to the maximum and try to minimize the amount of work you put in using every legal means at your disposal. Keep an eye out for better options. Obviously there's much more to life than money. But figuring out the balance is tough.

Assuming he's a captain your husband would have to make about 260k/year before taxes in the US to equal his salary in dubai. If you have kids you might have to bump that up to 280k-300k. Here is a website with all the airline salaries so you can see exactly what he will make. Good luck
www.airlinepilotcentral.com

 

[Buford]

Thanks Green. I wasn't referring to you as the Kool Aid drinker - you seem quite balanced in your perspective.

Yes, he's a captain but we're in company accommodation. We aren't prepared to do US/AA and at this stage and would only consider United or Delta as options. The salary at US/AA is ridiculous. Our concern is that if we stick around another 20+ years plus the 11+ we've already done then potentially half our lives will have been spent in Dubai. Do we really want that?