ALPA Defeats Emirates in Rent-A-Code Scheme

[General Lee]

General,

Why did Typhoon leave? Who knows? I'm guessing because he wanted to. Maybe he bought a villa in Phuket and wants to be close to it. Maybe he missed living in the USA and has plenty of money in his bank account. Maybe he wanted a little variety in his life and decided to try out a new airline. Maybe he's sick of Dubai. Not everyone wants to put on the same uniform for 30 years. As a contract pilot you aren't tied to one airline. You don't take a big pay cut when you change jobs.

Because I'm bored here's a breakdown of my last 12 months (777fo). I never broke 90 hours. Captains have tougher schedules. Generally one extra trip per month. FO's fly 65-85 hours and CA's seem to be around 80-92. The company won't give you more than 92 even if you wanted it as it triggers premium pay.

Oct- 21 Days Off, 1 turnaround, 66 Hours
Sep- 17 Days Off, 1 turn, 86 Hours
Aug -22 Days Off, No Turns, 44 hours
Jul- 15 Days off ,No Turns, 79 hours
Jun- 17 days off, No turns, 53 hours block
May-14 days off, No turns, 85 hours
Apr - 18 Days off, No Turns, 58 hours
March- 11 Days Off, No Turns, 81 Hours
Feb- 13 Days Off, 0 Turns, 79 Hours
Jan- 17 Days Off, 2 turns, 52 hours
Dec2012- 15 Days Off, 1 turn, 73 hours
Nov2012- Reserve all month. Zero scheduled days off. Find out the night before if you are off or on call. Everybody sits reserve appx 1 month per year.

Not the best in the world but certainly not bad. Etihad and Qatar are a different story. IMHO there is only one airline in the ME worth working for. Plenty of downsides to EK but I think it's very competitive when stacked up against Delta.

Would i give up my spot for a place on the Fedex list? In a heartbeat.

There you go. Thank you for this post. Well said, and it does clear up a lot. Sounds like your Capts are worked hard, but I appreciate your month explanations. That helps everyone see what type of schedule some people have. Reading posts from other boards shows some fleets have tougher schedules (330) and do more night turns. I know that fleet is being phased out, (maybe 343 and 345 too?) and 777s may take over a lot of those rough night turns.

Your airline isn't for everyone. It takes a special commitment, especially if you need to bring a family over. The housing and school allowances are good apparently, especially compared to other Gulf carriers. There is no doubt you can see the World at your airline, flying with a load of gorgeous FAs, which may be fun. Having a family may be tougher for just those reasons, and people should know about that prior to making a big decision like that. The laws are different over there, and that needs to be known too.

Thanks for the good post.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[8sugarsugar]

This is not hurting Emirates. It is hurting NAC. Makes you wonder how different this would be if United/Delta and Emirates inked the deal instead of NAC and Emirates. Its also hurting the American passengers who work over there.

Basically, from what I understand, NAC moves contractors from Dubai to afghan. Contractors fly into Dubai on Emirates anyway from one of the 7, soon to be more US destinations, find their baggage, re-check it on NAC's charter...total pain in the ass. Emirates and NAC wanted to make this seamless, one ticket/transfer/business class lounge comfort/no immigration.

Could these guys use Delta or United? sure, but your only choice is Atlanta or Dulles not to mention the absolute torture. That is why these guys that work in afghan already fly on Emirates.. convenience and very comfortable service.

By blocking this deal with NAC, all it is doing is making it much more miserable for these passengers. They are still going to fly into Dubai on Emirates anyway. If NAC doesn't take them the rest of the way, it will be Atlas, Omni, etc etc.

Why can't Delta fly a daily shuttle from Dubai to afghan? Get a piece of that Government cheese.

 

[General Lee]

This is not hurting Emirates. It is hurting NAC. Makes you wonder how different this would be if United/Delta and Emirates inked the deal instead of NAC and Emirates. Its also hurting the American passengers who work over there.

Basically, from what I understand, NAC moves contractors from Dubai to afghan. Contractors fly into Dubai on Emirates anyway from one of the 7, soon to be more US destinations, find their baggage, re-check it on NAC's charter...total pain in the ass. Emirates and NAC wanted to make this seamless, one ticket/transfer/business class lounge comfort/no immigration.

Could these guys use Delta or United? sure, but your only choice is Atlanta or Dulles not to mention the absolute torture. That is why these guys that work in afghan already fly on Emirates.. convenience and very comfortable service.

By blocking this deal with NAC, all it is doing is making it much more miserable for these passengers.

Why can't Delta fly a daily shutting from Dubai to afghan? Get a piece of that Government cheese.

Cause you guys like Kabul? DL from ATL and UAL from IAD can easily get people to DXB, and then National and their 757 can fly people to Afghanistan. As taxpayers, we shouldn't have to fund a foreign airline when ours can do it just fine, and it looks like our Govt agrees. UAL also flies to KWI, Doha, and Bahrain (2 are one stoppers). From IAD, that's good for contractors. DL is currently upgrading interiors on different fleets (744s pretty much done, A330s getting new mods now, 767s done), so I don't think INTL expansion to the ME is high on the priority list. Eventually, maybe more cities will be added. Three new INTL city pairs have been announced from SEA--to LHR, ICN, and HKG. That beats Kabul any day. Enjoy it!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[8sugarsugar]

then so be it. its a drop in the bucket. Not going to hurt Emirates. UAL is fighting for maybe 80 people per day? If that even.

 

[Varmint]

Thanks for the clarification, but DL and ALPA pushed against EK taking handouts from the EXIM Bank, with discounts for "poor countries." Is the UAE a poor country? So, UAL pilots and DL pilots have partnered with ALPA (lead by a DL pilot) to give your airline a backhanded slap. Thanks.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Are handouts from EXIM bank the topic of this thread? Yes or no?

 

[General Lee]

Are handouts from EXIM bank the topic of this thread? Yes or no?

Yes? What's up with the "tude" btw? "Yes or No?" Really? You must be a demanding Capt.. If and when you decide to come back to the States, I'll be a more understanding Capt for you. Have a great day!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Varmint]

Yes? What's up with the "tude" btw? "Yes or No?" Really? You must be a demanding Capt.. If and when you decide to come back to the States, I'll be a more understanding Capt for you. Have a great day!


Bye Bye---General Lee

I made my point....I rest my case.

 

[flyboyike]

True. The torrent of water has to start sometime. I think the Legacies are currently ramping up for hiring. Once it does start at all 3, it will likely continue for years.

Nothing HAS to do anything, General. I'd certainly like the proverbial floodgates to open (just like everyone else in my position), but the fact remains that they're barely cracked.

 

[Buford]

Ok, so I'm not the pilot of the family but my experience with Emirates covers over 11 years worth, starting in the late 1990's. We've been back here a while and the flying that my husband does just isn't physically sustainable. The layovers aren't what they were when I worked for Emirates (no, we didn't meet flying). The time zones the guys cover and the hours they fly are not what I want to see him doing as he gets older. Unfortunately, there are no unions here and the company can do as they please. Swapping is no walk in the park. You can only swap max two flights a month and there are so many rules involved with that you need a whole lot of luck. As a US citizen he still pays tax here. We can't afford the US schools without cutting into our kids college savings so our kids attend British schools. We're lucky because we've been here long enough that we got a good school for our kids but there are a lot of crappy ones here. Many American pilots that came after the initial lot came from the Regionals and I totally understand why they love Emirates. The thing with being here is that the first 5-7 years is very doable but at some point you ask yourself how long can you be here? It gets more expensive by the year, every day you take your life in your hands driving the roads, the rules change constantly regarding visas, ID cards, documentation for this that and the other. What we do have is a steady pay check and an easy lifestyle. FWIW we don't have a maid, a boat, or two cars - yes, we do have a gardener. We've done all the sights and attractions and what we miss is jumping in the car and going on a road trip. We came here because it was all there was at the time. A job at NWA went away after 9/11 (in the pool at the time), we went to a carrier that went bankrupt soon after and by that stage we had two little ones - EK came at the perfect time and we appreciated the opportunity. However, at the end of the day, we're all mercenaries here and if Dubai could replace the crews and flight attendants with Emiratis they would - don't ever kid yourself.

 

[Green]

Buford,

I'm going to call bullish#t on your post. I'm guessing your husband is a Purser or cabin crew? If he was a pilot then you would understand the swap system. There is NO limit of two swaps per month. There IS a two swap per month limit on cabin crew. A pilot can swap unlimited times even the same trip. As much as you want. You could make 20 swaps a month if you like. The fact that you don't know that basic fact makes the rest of your post suspect. If he is a pilot then for some reason he's not telling you the truth about the swap system. That is strange...

Yes cabin crew work too hard. But the pilot contract is decent. I posted a year's worth of representative rosters above. Find me an airline that pays the same as EK with substantially better rosters. There are some but not many.

 

[Buford]

Ok, I may have got the two swap thing wrong, will need to check. What I do know is that swapping is nothing like in the US and there are many restrictions. Nope, he's no purser or cabin crew. However, I know all about their schedules because my sister is cabin crew and their rosters are way worse. If you haven't noticed, the information to the left is all his. I thought about using a different tag but I didn't want to pay the extra $10 for a new account.

At the end of the day Emirates is a business and they have every dirham accounted for down to the last fil. They've got every procedure and cabin item maximized to make money or reduce cost and they do it all so well. They're expansionist because they can be. They pour huge money into marketing, advertising and sponsorship because they want the prestige of being a global brand. When I worked in the US as a corporate flight attendant in 2000 no-one had heard of Emirates, fast forward 13 years and they've entered the market in a huge way. Kudos to them, they do it well, and they are far from stupid. They will never have bases outside Dubai because the employees of Emirates keep this particular Emirate going. Personally, I'd love to see the US airlines taking advantage of the Asian and SE Asian markets but they can't seem to do it fast enough or don't seem to realize the opportunity that is there. Emirates have no restrictions on who they employ and where they employ from. They can keep young guys and girls in the cabin because they have a huge global supply available of young people wanting to sign on. The product doesn't suffer because if those cabin crew don't deliver then they're quickly replaced by the next Korean girl, Egyptian guy, Filipina, Ethiopian or Spanish girl. It's only living as an expat that I've discovered how truly fortunate I was to be born with the passport that I have.

With all due respect Green, I think you may be experiencing the 'honeymoon' phase that we all have in Dubai. Wait until you hit the 7-10 year mark unless, that is, you're closer to retirement and then Emirates is probably a great way to end your career. In our case, we're looking at another few decades, combine that with our current 11+ years in Dubai and it isn't so appealing.

Getting back to the thread...the US Govt should continue to travel on and support US airlines.

 

[General Lee]

Ok, I may have got the two swap thing wrong, will need to check. What I do know is that swapping is nothing like in the US and there are many restrictions. Nope, he's no purser or cabin crew. However, I know all about their schedules because my sister is cabin crew and their rosters are way worse. If you haven't noticed, the information to the left is all his. I thought about using a different tag but I didn't want to pay the extra $10 for a new account.

At the end of the day Emirates is a business and they have every dirham accounted for down to the last fil. They've got every procedure and cabin item maximized to make money or reduce cost and they do it all so well. They're expansionist because they can be. They pour huge money into marketing, advertising and sponsorship because they want the prestige of being a global brand. When I worked in the US as a corporate flight attendant in 2000 no-one had heard of Emirates, fast forward 13 years and they've entered the market in a huge way. Kudos to them, they do it well, and they are far from stupid. They will never have bases outside Dubai because the employees of Emirates keep this particular Emirate going. Personally, I'd love to see the US airlines taking advantage of the Asian and SE Asian markets but they can't seem to do it fast enough or don't seem to realize the opportunity that is there. Emirates have no restrictions on who they employ and where they employ from. They can keep young guys and girls in the cabin because they have a huge global supply available of young people wanting to sign on. The product doesn't suffer because if those cabin crew don't deliver then they're quickly replaced by the next Korean girl, Egyptian guy, Filipina, Ethiopian or Spanish girl. It's only living as an expat that I've discovered how truly fortunate I was to be born with the passport that I have.

With all due respect Green, I think you may be experiencing the 'honeymoon' phase that we all have in Dubai. Wait until you hit the 7-10 year mark unless, that is, you're closer to retirement and then Emirates is probably a great way to end your career. In our case, we're looking at another few decades, combine that with our current 11+ years in Dubai and it isn't so appealing.

Getting back to the thread...the US Govt should continue to travel on and support US airlines.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for your post.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Green]

Buford,

I totally get it. You are burned out on Dubai. Dubai is culturally bankrupt. I agree. But you are not being completely fair with your complaints.

You talk about the horrible rosters, lack of swaps, tiring layovers, etc. I've been here for years and I never fly more than 700 hours per year. I average 14-15 days off per month plus a few rest days. Minimum layover is 24 hours. The hotels Emirates uses are so much nicer than any US carrier it's not even comparable. The swap rules are restricted by legality. You won't find much difference back in the States. It will not let you break a legal requirement, and in addition it will not let you swap into overtime pay and it won't let you go from Far East to ULR Westbound without a 100+ hour break in between. That rule is there to keep people from complaining about fatigue due to severe time zone changes. Also when your husband goes back home to work for brand x he won't have a car and driver come pick him up and take him to the airport.

Again I undersand that you are sick and tired of Dubai. That is totally understandable. At times I feel the exact same way. But lets say Emirates offered your husband a base in New York, LAX, SFO, SEA, ORD, DFW, or MIA. Would you change your mind about Emirates? My guess is he wouldn't even consider another airline if those bases were available. I think answering that question helps someone identify if the problem is the job or Dubai.

I'm not in my honeymoon phase. I passed that, entered my disillusioned phase, and then finally reached my "realistic phase." When i have a week off I leave Dubai. I get out of here during vacation weeks and I try not to waste all my money on the BS hotels/spas/etc. I actually enjoy the layovers quite a bit. During my down time I have hobbies which keep me busy.

I don't mean to attack your post and wish you the best of luck. Just trying to point out the flip side.

 

[uba757]

Mrs. Buford with all do respect, please research the information you are trying to use as an example before posting it! Is this place perfect? Far from it in my opinion but the PRO'S still out weight the CON'S! I am sorry you are so unhappy in DXB and I wish you all the luck in the world!

 

[Green]

Buford,

In case you do go back it would be really cool if you could update us on the transition. I'm sure lots of foreign pilots on here are curious about going back but not sure what to do.

A few things to think hard about before going home. Reading your husband's experience it looks like he hasn't had much US Airline time. Maybe less than 1 year? So his, and your, experience has been corporate and Emirates. I'm guessing both of you would be in for a shock if he took a position with a legacy back home. Here would be a few of my biggest concerns if I was in your shoes.

-Your paycheck would probably look something like $1700 on the 15th and $2,200 on the 31st. If you go somewhere like US Airways/Spirit it would be dramatically less. Regardless of where you go your total monthly paycheck will be less than your Emirates housing allowance. Sounds like he's in his 40's now so it's safe to assume he will never make as much as he is making right now.

-Your husband would be on reserve every month. Not once a year like at EK. If he's lucky he might get off reserve in under a year and have a junior line. Those generally have non commutable trips, fatiguing trips, low credit trips, undesirable layovers, fewer days off. Also he will be staying in rat trap hotels. Best Westerns, Holiday Inns, maybe an old Raddison. No more Jumeirah Himalayas, Hiltons, etc.

-Unless you choose to live in Anchorage, Dallas, Chicago, New York, Atlanta he will probably be commuting. That either sitting reserve in another city or bidding 4 day trips out of another city. You might not see him more than 11 days per month. He might have to commute out the night before and come back the day after he finishes. Turing a 4 day trip into a 6 day trip. Plus he will need to shell out a few hundred per month for a crashpad full of bunk beds.

-No schooling allowance or company provided villas. Sure schools are expensive in Dubai. But doesn't the company give you about 10k/year per kid? You are looking at a bit out of pocket to put them in the very best schools. Getting into the best US Universities after a top private school in Dubai will be much easier. What kind of education experience will your kids get back home? To live in a neighborhood with good schools in the cities mentioned above you are looking at shelling out maybe 1million plus for a home that can house a family of 4. Or you can live in a cheaper neighborhood and try to pay private school tuition plus bills on 4k per month. There's a reason the US ranks so poorly when it comes to education.

-Non revving is not what it is at Emirates. Here you can easily jump on a plane to Phuket, Barcelona, Maldives, etc in first class or business and enjoy a holiday or just a few days away from Dubai. Getting anywhere on US passes is nearly impossible. All 40,000+ employees at your new airline have access to First and business class. As you know only Captains and VP's can fly First Class at Emirates. FO's and Pursers have access to Business. Everybody else is stuck in economy. This creates empty seats for you and your fam. Not so in the US. Start getting used to a middle seat in coach and expect your husband to be sitting in the jumpseat. The Flight Attendant who has been there 3 years will get that first class seat before you. I'm guessing you and your husband would not even consider flying economy now?

The big positives would be living in the US again and the cockpit/training environment would be much better for your husband. It's a really tough call. Hopefully you guys have saved a lot of money to make the transition easier. I would meet with a financial advisor before doing it just so you have a very clear picture of what your costs would be. I have about 3 decades to go, don't have kids, and the idea of going back seems very tough financially. But to each his/her own. Best of luck.

If you are tired of Dubai you might want to consider China Southern (foreign bases), anything in Japan, or maybe Korean. At least you can maintain your lifestyle while living in Europe or the US/Canada.