ALPA chest thumpers

[CopilotDoug]

If you don't want to pay union dues then don't join a union. OR don't apply for a job in which union dues is a part of the deal.

I wouldn't mind joining a Union. One that has solidarity among its members. I don't see solidarity between any TWO carriers involved with ALPA. And you know what? I don't expect it, either. I look at ALPA realistically...a large organization with many flaws. Ultimately, and realistically, ALPA cannot provide you with the protection they imply, be it medical, job, or contract related. The responsibility for ANYTHING to get accomplished in the airlines is going to be up to the individual pilots. It's just the way it is...ALPA talks a great game, but talk is cheap.

Everything begins and ends on CapHill.... ALPA is simply a little elf amongts the tens of thousands of giants trying to get protection from its members.

Too bad the guys running for ALPA president weren't as humble when it came down to getting votes...WE'RE GONNA TAKE IT BACK!!! What's the excuse for Prater going to be when he fails at this? I know, I know, he'll just point the finger back at the pilot groups...

Can you loan your magic wand Fairy Godmother....?

Again, like a politician Prater said what he needed to say in order to get the votes. Don't tell me his campaign title was just there because it was catchy? Next thing you know, the ALPA guys will be saying "He didn't mean we'd be taking it back LITERALLY!"

I am not sure you are too familiar with how things operate. Your post suggest that by sending in your dues that is a gurantee that everything will be fine.

We all know this is NOT the case

 

[CopilotDoug]

Reading through this thread makes me realize how many of you are uninformed, and have opinions based on half truths and exagerations. If this is really the up and coming future generation of pilots then we as a group are in trouble.

TO paraphrase what JoeMerchant said in another post: Alot of pilots couldn't care one way or the other about ALPA.

And it says something: You don't need to be an ALPA guru to tell where the "better" quality of life is. You can argue this, that, and the other, but it's clear that the Regionals don't offer the living many have set as a goal. Until this improves, the regionals will effectively be viewed as 121 training programs.

What constitues informed? If you're pro-ALPA, does that qualify you as informed? I know pilots where ALPA straight up failed them (didn't live up to their words about fair representation you read in the pamphlets) Are their views and opinions not to be taken as credible since it didn't affect the pilot group as a whole?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I wouldn't mind joining a Union. One that has solidarity among its members. I don't see solidarity between any TWO carriers involved with ALPA. And you know what? I don't expect it, either. I look at ALPA realistically...a large organization with many flaws. Ultimately, and realistically, ALPA cannot provide you with the protection they imply, be it medical, job, or contract related. The responsibility for ANYTHING to get accomplished in the airlines is going to be up to the individual pilots. It's just the way it is...ALPA talks a great game, but talk is cheap.

Too bad the guys running for ALPA president weren't as humble when it came down to getting votes...WE'RE GONNA TAKE IT BACK!!! What's the excuse for Prater going to be when he fails at this? I know, I know, he'll just point the finger back at the pilot groups...
Again, like a politician Prater said what he needed to say in order to get the votes. Don't tell me his campaign title was just there because it was catchy? Next thing you know, the ALPA guys will be saying "He didn't mean we'd be taking it back LITERALLY!"
We all know this is NOT the case

Righhhhhhht, "individual pilots" standing alone can really accomplish a lot...we should just abolish all unions right now and start getting things done individually! What management group are you with????

 

[JoeMerchant]

Righhhhhhht, "individual pilots" standing alone can really accomplish a lot...we should just abolish all unions right now and start getting things done individually! What management group are you with????

I think your missing the point. Your absolutely right, but that is how we as a union are acting. We are all acting individually.... even WITH ALPA. How about a union that speaks COLLECTIVELY, rather than INDIVIDUALLY. Why are we as union members competing for work within a brand? It is the status quo group that is benefiting management, not the ones who want ALPA to change....

 

[DX Rick]

Righhhhhhht, "individual pilots" standing alone can really accomplish a lot...we should just abolish all unions right now and start getting things done individually! What management group are you with????

Plain simple. Look at the top companies to be with today. There is a reason for that.

 

[DX Rick]

ALPA is nothing but a country club for guys who don't want to work anymore for a living. Volunteers are nothing but suckers who are trying to smooze thier way onto the pay roll.
It's not even a GOB Country Club (Good Ole Boy) , becasue GOB has respect and dignity for themselves, not to become a person like the guys on our MEC's at each airline.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Plain simple. Look at the top companies to be with today. There is a reason for that.

You mean like FedEX? I believe they're ALPA!!!

 

[DX Rick]

Reading through this thread makes me realize how many of you are uninformed, and have opinions based on half truths and exagerations. If this is really the up and coming future generation of pilots then we as a group are in trouble.

I'm not saying I know all, but from your post. You make it sound like you DO know it all. How long have you been with the airline? Must have been one good class you took at SIU, for you to know everything about the union.

I'm a 3rd generation pilot. My family members donated time to thier ALPA local. I have seen first hand how the Union has done nothing for them. Everything from not giving support to help one get thier medical back....had to use an outside source.
To not giving any backing when one jokingly called his friend a "scab" and an A-lister, went crying to Andy Hughes...Andy told him "My hands are tied, I can't help you"

Lets think about this. An ALPA member, gets fired because of an A-lister complained. Nice backing you have there. This is a situation where National stepped in.....but Im sure Dwayne Wayne Worthless had his back to the wall, and couldn't help him.
But yet, he will keep a guy who bent an airplane, his job back.

 

[DX Rick]

You mean like FedEX? I believe they're ALPA!!!

Ok, there is your Gold Star of the decade.

How about SWA, NetJets and the others?

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA is nothing but a country club for guys who don't want to work anymore for a living.

Wow, you really don't have a clue. I'm flying a 92-hour line this month, plus doing work for PCL ALPA, plus doing work for ALPA National. On average, I spend about 2-5 days at home a month - and I hold 14-15 days off. Yeah, really a country-club lifestyle I'm living here.

 

[DX Rick]

Wow, you really don't have a clue. I'm flying a 92-hour line this month, plus doing work for PCL ALPA, plus doing work for ALPA National. On average, I spend about 2-5 days at home a month - and I hold 14-15 days off. Yeah, really a country-club lifestyle I'm living here.

yes, country club. Your membership papers to the golf course haven't been signed....so you still have to work for all the other guys.

 

[DX Rick]

Wow, you really don't have a clue. I'm flying a 92-hour line this month, plus doing work for PCL ALPA, plus doing work for ALPA National. On average, I spend about 2-5 days at home a month - and I hold 14-15 days off. Yeah, really a country-club lifestyle I'm living here.

Now it all makes sense. You need to work the time you do to pay off all the cash you dumped into GIA. I forgot that you dumped thousands of dollars to fly that King Air 1900, to get your "dream job" with PCL.

Glad we have scum like you working for the Union, trying to protect our very jobs...that you PAID for. You paid to take a job away from a guy who earned his dues. You didn't want to put the effort forth, so you just opened up the check book.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I think your missing the point. Your absolutely right, but that is how we as a union are acting. We are all acting individually.... even WITH ALPA. How about a union that speaks COLLECTIVELY, rather than INDIVIDUALLY. Why are we as union members competing for work within a brand? It is the status quo group that is benefiting management, not the ones who want ALPA to change....

Absolutely right, Joe.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You mean like FedEX? I believe they're ALPA!!!

Are you going to attribute the success of their contract to ALPA? Or the fact that they operate under a different business model than the Airlines? Because UPS got a pretty smoking contract too...but they're not ALPA. And NetJets, pretty smoking contract under the Teamsters, but again, different business model.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Wow, you really don't have a clue. I'm flying a 92-hour line this month, plus doing work for PCL ALPA, plus doing work for ALPA National. On average, I spend about 2-5 days at home a month - and I hold 14-15 days off. Yeah, really a country-club lifestyle I'm living here.

92 hours a month? Wow, that does suck! Who would have ever negotiated a contract like that

Just curious as to your thoughts on Colginnical coming into the picture here, PCL. I know they're hot and heavy for some ALPA love, are they going to take any flying away from you guys for a cheaper rate?

 

[PCL_128]

92 hours a month? Wow, that does suck! Who would have ever negotiated a contract like that

Not me. That's actually pretty unusual. The company's refusal to settle our contract has left them with payrates that just aren't marketable in today's job market. They're offering classes to 40 pilots a month, but only 15-20 show up. With them not even able to keep up with attrition, they're scheduling us right up to the contractual max of 95 hours.

Just curious as to your thoughts on Colginnical coming into the picture here, PCL. I know they're hot and heavy for some ALPA love

Yes they are, and I'm happy to help them in any way I can. I hope to see the Colgan pilots as ALPA members within the next few months.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yes they are, and I'm happy to help them in any way I can. I hope to see the Colgan pilots as ALPA members within the next few months.

PCL,
I read the Mesa/Freedom single carrier petition. It seems it was dismissed because of the Mesa contract and LOA that incorporated the Freedom list into a single MAG list.

With PCL and ASA at the end game in section 6 negotiations, do you think it may be prudent to try the same thing with Colgan and Skywest? The leverage to actually achieve single groups lies in contract negotiations. Isn't now the time to pull the trigger?

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,
I read the Mesa/Freedom single carrier petition. It seems it was dismissed because of the Mesa contract and LOA that incorporated the Freedom list into a single MAG list.

The single-carrier petition was resolved in ALPA's favor. I don't believe it was dismissed. I suggest calling Legal if you have any questions. I'm certainly no expert on legal rulings. When I need info, I ask Legal.

With PCL and ASA at the end game in section 6 negotiations, do you think it may be prudent to try the same thing with Colgan and Skywest? The leverage to actually achieve single groups lies in contract negotiations. Isn't now the time to pull the trigger?

Again, ALPA Legal has advised that forcing an integration with a non-union group is not a legal option. If you want to merge lists, then I suggest you start working on the Skywest organizing drive to get them into ALPA first.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Yes they are, and I'm happy to help them in any way I can. I hope to see the Colgan pilots as ALPA members within the next few months.

Whats the game plan? You going to have them adopt your contract?

 

[JoeMerchant]

The single-carrier petition was resolved in ALPA's favor. I don't believe it was dismissed. I suggest calling Legal if you have any questions. I'm certainly no expert on legal rulings. When I need info, I ask Legal.

That's not what the petition says. Here it is. Don't blindly follow ALPA legal.... As Reagan said, "trust but verify"...

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2003/30n040.pdf

The front page says "FINDINGS UPON INVESTIGATION - DISMISSAL". If you go on to read it, it says this was because they already achieved single carrier through their contract negotiations. Ask ALPA legal about that....

Again, ALPA Legal has advised that forcing an integration with a non-union group is not a legal option. If you want to merge lists, then I suggest you start working on the Skywest organizing drive to get them into ALPA first.

Read the filing above. That is exactly what Mesa did with Freedom. I'm afraid your getting bad advice from ALPA....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Whats the game plan? You going to have them adopt your contract?

The game plan is to try and get Colgan and Skywest pilots to pay dues while we are still all whipsawed against one another......

 

[DX Rick]

The game plan is to try and get Colgan and Skywest pilots to pay dues while we are still all whipsawed against one another......

This is why ALPA need to come up with one pay scale for all pilots, split up in differenct equipment, straight across the board.

But that would make sense.
Thats how the RailRoads are, and thats a SOLID union

 

[PCL_128]

That's not what the petition says. Here it is. Don't blindly follow ALPA legal.... As Reagan said, "trust but verify"...

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2003/30n040.pdf

The front page says "FINDINGS UPON INVESTIGATION - DISMISSAL". If you go on to read it, it says this was because they already achieved single carrier through their contract negotiations. Ask ALPA legal about that....



Read the filing above. That is exactly what Mesa did with Freedom. I'm afraid your getting bad advice from ALPA....

John, I don't really have time to read the whole decision, but I believe I've found the disparity (again, I'm not a lawyer, so I could be way off). From the report's conclusion (emphasis is mine):

CONCLUSION​

The Board finds that for representation purposes under the RLA, Freedom is part of the existing MAG single transportation system composed of the MAG subsidiaries, Mesa, Air Midwest, and CCAir, for the Flight Deck Crew Members craft or class. Therefore, ALPA’s application in File No. CR-6771 is converted to NMB Case No. R-6939 and dismissed. ALPA’s certification at Mesa, Air Midwest, and CCAir covers the Freedom Air Flight Deck Crew Members.​

It would seem to me that the difference is the fact that Freedom was created by Mesa when ALPA was already the legal bargaining agent of Mesa/CCAir/Air Midwest pilots. In the cases of PCL/CJC and ASA/SKW, the airlines were involved in purchases. The airlines weren't built from scratch by the parent airline. It would seem that the NMB was finding that the Freedom Air pilots were always supposed to be ALPA pilots from the beginning because they were part of a single transportation system from their inception. The pilots at CJC and SKW were part of a pre-existing airline without union representation. Hence, you can't force them into a union shop.​

Again, that's just the interpretation of a non-lawyer. I'd have to ask Bruce York or one of the other ALPA attorneys for a true legal analysis.​

 

[PCL_128]

The game plan is to try and get Colgan and Skywest pilots to pay dues while we are still all whipsawed against one another......

John, if you would have paid attention at the Leadership Conference, you would know that the SKW and CJC pilots would pay less into ALPA than they would receive, just like every other regional airline. Getting these two pilot groups into ALPA would actually mean that ALPA would be losing money year after year.

 

[Occam's Razor]

This is why ALPA need to come up with one pay scale for all pilots, split up in differenct equipment, straight across the board.

Wrong book!

We decided to use Adam Smith's book instead of Karl Marx's book

But that would make sense.
Thats how the RailRoads are, and thats a SOLID union

Ha! Then 'splain why an engineer at TC&W makes less than a BN engineer with the same longevity?

I can get you an application if you're interested!

In 1978, the decision was made to de-regulate the industry. The genie is out of the bottle. The only way to get that rascal back inside and rivet the cap is to get 100% of all of us driving airplanes to agree to do it.

Give me your views on Age 60 and I'll let the 200 responses you get serve as an illustration why that ain't happening, comrade!

 

[DX Rick]

Give me your views on Age 60 and I'll let the 200 responses you get serve as an illustration why that ain't happening, comrade!

Age 60 wouldn't be a factor if the airlines didn't abuse the BK laws, and rip pensions out from everyone else.

I think as pilots, we should be able to take our managements contracts and pensions to a judge and have them all thrown out as well.
But I'm a little psychotic.

 

[PCL_128]

But I'm a little psychotic.

Well, we finally agree on something.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Age 60 wouldn't be a factor if the airlines didn't abuse the BK laws, and rip pensions out from everyone else.

You learn quickly, grasshopper!

The line up of weasels that don't want you to have ANY control over your pay, benefits, schedule, and pension is impressive:

Government
Management
Banks
Courts

I think as pilots, we should be able to take our managements contracts and pensions to a judge and have them all thrown out as well.

That's crazy talk! We're Labor! The "good guys" get to make the rules, and the courts follow the rules. The credit card companies wanted tighter Chapter 13 rules to keep people from writing-off debt via bankruptcy.

So they got the rules changed.

We'd like to change the Railway Labor Act and Chapter 11 rules for airlines too.

Where was THAT issue when we went to the polls in November, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006?

But I'm a little psychotic.

Hardly. You just want a system that's fair at least some of the time!

Me too.

That doesn't make us psychotic. Doesn't make us enemies or contrarians either. We only differ on what role ALPA plays in helping us change the rules to make the system more fair.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I think we all agree that management sucks. That being said...

The game plan is to try and get Colgan and Skywest pilots to pay dues while we are still all whipsawed against one another...
Can you feel the solidarity yet? I think I do! Wait...wait... *burp* ... sorry, just a little gas

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Are you going to attribute the success of their contract to ALPA? Or the fact that they operate under a different business model than the Airlines? Because UPS got a pretty smoking contract too...but they're not ALPA. And NetJets, pretty smoking contract under the Teamsters, but again, different business model.

Well, let's see... Since the February 2007 issue of Aviation International News(page 67) states that "Skywest Airlines turned the biggest profit margins in the entire airline industry during the third quarter, 12.3%", and then comparing the 0 or 1%(for 101/2 years) we got compared to FedEX pilots.... YES!!!!! I'd attribute the success to ALPA!