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ALPA chest thumpers

  • Thread starter Thread starter MELIT
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We interupt your regularly scheduled ALPA debate to bring you a message from the RJDC

[insert RJDC mantra here]

Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programing.....

Nice side-step of the issue Rez....

Would you like to address the issues I raised, or are you content waving the ALPA flag, bashing RJDC, and ignoring the core problem we face?

Here's a hint.... ALG, PDT, CMR, ACA, and Mesaba all had cohesive hard working local MECs. These were some of the best models for ALPA on a local level and the best contracts in the regional industry. In the end however, it didn't matter. 2 of these were replaced, and the other 3 were reduced and took concessions.

Address the issues if you can? RJDC is not the issue. Failure of ALPA is the issue....
 
Here's a hint.... ALG, PDT, CMR, ACA, and Mesaba all had cohesive hard working local MECs. These were some of the best models for ALPA on a local level and the best contracts in the regional industry. In the end however, it didn't matter. 2 of these were replaced, and the other 3 were reduced and took concessions.....

And who's fault is that? ALPA? Ok...if so.. how and what did ALPA fail to do for..

ALG

ACA

PDT

CMR

MSA

While you are at it.... tell us what ALPA failed to do for

EAL

Branniff

PAA

National

Frontier 1

Century


Was ALPA perfect? heck no... they can be quite reactionary....




p.s. life isn't fair and life goes on....
 
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While you are at it.... tell us what ALPA failed to do for

EAL

Branniff

PAA

National

Frontier 1

Century

Is there a direct corrolation between these airlines and the airlines Joe pointed out? These airlines had poor management teams, if I were to guess.

On a side note, there is nothing wrong with what the EAL pilots did. They put their money where their mouth was and shut the airline down. As an added bonus, Lorenzo was found incompetant by a judge I do believe, and barred from ever running an airline again.
 
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You have missed my point. Maybe it's my fault for not making it clear. I was pointing out that Regional airlines who are represented by ALPA get a direct return on their money, that is, they take more money from ALPA than they pay. I don't know how to make it more clear.

Good lord, I almost lost a speedometer I was bidding for on eBay because of this thread. The only reason I remembered it was that my Lasagna finished cooking. Time to eat.

Dude...eBay and Lasagna are more important than this thread!

Secondly, I see your point. Anybody have a generic breakdown of Union expenses for XYZ Regional airline? It's a long shot, but ya gotta ask.
 
And who's fault is that? ALPA? Ok...if so.. how and what did ALPA fail to do for..

ALG

ACA

PDT

CMR

MSA

While you are at it.... tell us what ALPA failed to do for

EAL

Branniff

PAA

National

Frontier 1

Century


Was ALPA perfect? heck no... they can be quite reactionary....




p.s. life isn't fair and life goes on....

Your right, life ain't fair Rez................. and life does go on. Life that includes gun control, abortion, taxation, terrorism, regulation, energy dependance, and job security.

I brought up these carriers to counter you assertion that our career is the most important thing and we need to address it before we address the other issues. Well the pilots of ALG, PDT, ACA, MSA, and CMR did what they were told to do. In the end, their job was taken by fellow union members who work for less.

Your mantra is getting old Rez....... the fact is, job security is important. ALPA can't give that, so we are on our own to secure job security. The Skywest pilots have it for now.... the ALPA DCI pilots don't.....

Again Rez, do you want to address the issues, or are you content to take more cheap shots while you wrap yourself in the ALPA flag.....
 
Doug,

Mesa had access to the same resources. Unfortunately Mesa was also dealing with a loaded gun to their head in the form of Freedom Airlines. Furthermore, all the resources in the world are no good if you don't know how to use them. As you pointed out, each individual MEC must manage its own process and pick the best people for the NC, etc.

-Neal

I am going to try and keep this as concise as possible without turning it into an anti-ALPA diatribe.

I agree with you on this one, Neal. So how does ALPA fairly represent all carriers equally? It's effectively every pilot group for itself and even then the pilots of each group can't agree in which direction to go.

I think there is a perception of ALPA being better since it is bigger, and I think that is flawed. When it comes down to contracts, one Union isn't going to necessarily be "better" than another.
Take FedEx and UPS for example. Both making money, each has a different Union...both have industry leading contracts.
 
I am going to try and keep this as concise as possible without turning it into an anti-ALPA diatribe.

I agree with you on this one, Neal. So how does ALPA fairly represent all carriers equally? It's effectively every pilot group for itself and even then the pilots of each group can't agree in which direction to go.

I think there is a perception of ALPA being better since it is bigger, and I think that is flawed. When it comes down to contracts, one Union isn't going to necessarily be "better" than another.
Take FedEx and UPS for example. Both making money, each has a different Union...both have industry leading contracts.

Well said Doug.

FedEx and UPS have superior contracts because they are in a different business than we are in. They are in a business that has pricing power and limited competition.

UPS and NetJets are better jobs than any ALPA regional, and most ALPA carriers in general. Skywest is one of the best regionals, and it isn't ALPA.

ALPA COULD be better, but as with most large entities, it slow to react, and largely ineffective.
 
Well said Doug.
Thanks Joe.
UPS and NetJets are better jobs than any ALPA regional, and most ALPA carriers in general. Skywest is one of the best regionals, and it isn't ALPA.
I couldn't agree more.

ALPA COULD be better, but as with most large entities, it slow to react, and largely ineffective.
And this is a common response I get from pilots' opinion on ALPA. It shouldn't be this way, but sadly it is.
 
Skywest is one of the best regionals, and it isn't ALPA.

One could argue that Skywest is one of the best regionals partially due to the fact that their management is doing everything they can to stave off a union (and they have successfully done that for years). In other words, ALPA carriers have negotiated contracts over the years and Skywest management knew that they had to meet or exceed those contracts in order to keep a union off property. Do you think that if the regional industry consisted purely of Great Lakes style contracts that Skywest would still have the Policy Manual that it does today?

-Neal
 
I am going to try and keep this as concise as possible without turning it into an anti-ALPA diatribe.

I agree with you on this one, Neal. So how does ALPA fairly represent all carriers equally? It's effectively every pilot group for itself and even then the pilots of each group can't agree in which direction to go.

ALPA fairly represents all carriers equally by offering everyone the same access to all of its services and departments. It is then largely up to the individual MEC's to utilize those services. It is also up to the contract administrator that is working with the MEC to guide the MEC through those services IF need be.

I've worked at Continental Express under the IACP and I've worked there under ALPA. Night and day. Partially due to the services provided by ALPA and partially due to the fact that good people ultimatley stepped up to the plate in the various committees at XJT while I was there. XJT is now a model MEC within ALPA. Momentum built over time and they just know how to do it at this point. It wasn't always like that of course.

-Neal
 
FedEx and UPS have superior contracts because they are in a different business than we are in. They are in a business that has pricing power and limited competition.

So what does that have to do with unions?

UPS and NetJets are better jobs than any ALPA regional, and most ALPA carriers in general. Skywest is one of the best regionals, and it isn't ALPA.

So what does UPS and NJA have to do with ALPA?

ALPA COULD be better, but as with most large entities, it slow to react, and largely ineffective.

And what is your solution to make it better? Is the ALPA democracy not working?
 
I brought up these carriers to counter you assertion that our career is the most important thing and we need to address it before we address the other issues. Well the pilots of ALG, PDT, ACA, MSA, and CMR did what they were told to do. In the end, their job was taken by fellow union members who work for less.

Ok, but lets talk about management too. can you do that? cause everyone seems to blame ALPA but they never talk about the management teams that are pulling the strings? Why is that? cause management doesn't care and won't listen? And ALPA is obligated to listen to its members.

Your mantra is getting old Rez....... the fact is, job security is important. ALPA can't give that, so we are on our own to secure job security. The Skywest pilots have it for now.... the ALPA DCI pilots don't.....

Why SHOULD ALPA give that job security. Are you sure you are properly placing responsibility where it should be? I've been furloughed from two ALPA carriers. I don't blame ALPA. Certianly not before I blame the talented management teams that walked away with millions of dollars for failing. Imagine crashing a jet and getting a bonus for it....

Again Rez, do you want to address the issues, or are you content to take more cheap shots while you wrap yourself in the ALPA flag

Yes, let's address the issue. How about this new US/EU agreement? With provisions to change foreign owenership and control. While you and I are argueing about how crapppy ALPA is the very ability to be a US Airline pilot is going to be gone in this country.

The fight is out there not here Joe. THAT IS THE ISSUE!

SO many of you ALPA haters are so myopic. Yes ALPA sucks. There are many things I don't like about ALPA. It can be better! Agreed! Can we move on? Make it better? Address the issues..each one?
 
Is there a direct corrolation between these airlines and the airlines Joe pointed out? These airlines had poor management teams, if I were to guess.

You are doing allot of guessing... Guess what...all the airlines listed have had poor management teams...


On a side note, there is nothing wrong with what the EAL pilots did. They put their money where their mouth was and shut the airline down. As an added bonus, Lorenzo was found incompetant by a judge I do believe, and barred from ever running an airline again.

He wasn't found incompetent. He was found detrimental to the industry and banned for his destructive pratices. I suggest reading Hard Landing.

Finally, the EAL guys did what they could. And where is EAL now? The great Airline of Eddie Rickenbacker?

Finally, the EAL guys got tired of finding Lorenzo in bed with GHW Bush Sr, so they pushed the ALPA EC to endorse pro labor presidential candidates. The next pro pilot candidate was Bill Clinton...

Well, the rest of the savvy ALPA members went ape-crap..... cause guns and gays are more important... but the EAL guys knew differently cause they went thru he11..... It is easy to focus on gays and guns when you aren't battling Lorenzo and out of work....
 
I was pointing out that Regional airlines who are represented by ALPA get a direct return on their money, that is, they take more money from ALPA than they pay. I don't know how to make it more clear.

The smaller carriers are underfunded by design. That's how ALPA keeps
the little guys barefoot and pregnant.

Been away from it for a while but in 1999, ALPA's Spending Limit Formula
(SLF) netted the Delta MEC @ $982 per pilot per year; Comair MEC had @ $170 per pilot per year to do the same job.

This is why the Comair pilots assessed themselves an additional 1.5%
during bargaining. ALPA was threatening to cut off funding in the middle of negotiations (for the contract we just lost) because the Comair MEC was
"overspending." In fact, ALPA published the public newsletter Heads Up
during our Section 6 telegraphing to management that we were on the
ropes financially within the association. Management must have smiled when they read that rag. Does that sound like "trade union" behavior to you?

$170 per pilot per year is woefully inadequate during normal operations let alone bargaining. The reality is that in a union where everyone is supposedly represented equally, Comair and other small carriers are routinely underfunded. ALPA's dirty little secret.

The problem isn't just management.
 
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Finally, the EAL guys got tired of finding Lorenzo in bed with GHW Bush Sr, so they pushed the ALPA EC to endorse pro labor presidential candidates. The next pro pilot candidate was Bill Clinton...



Ok, I have to raise the BS flag here... What exactly about Bill Clinton was so "Pro Pilot"?? What did he do for the APA when they were ready to walk? remind me..

Look, if the Democrats were REALLY pro-labor, and didn't just take advantage of the voting block, as they do with blacks, and the poor, I'd be a democrat tomorrow.. the fact is, today's Dems are "Limousine Liberals" with the worse of both parties compacted into one.. socially liberal, and economically conservative..

I'm looking for Pat Buchanan or someone like him to form a new party for the rest of us before I vote again.
 
The smaller carriers are underfunded by design. That's how ALPA keeps the little guys barefoot and pregnant.

Riiiight! And just like your first unsatisfied girlfriend tried to tell you in her gentlest terms: size matters.

Been away from it for a while but in 1999, ALPA's Spending Limit Formula (SLF) netted the Delta MEC @ $982 per pilot per year; Comair MEC had @ $170 per pilot per year to do the same job.

Correct! You have been away from it for a while. (Actually, you've been spending money to FIGHT "it" for a while, because you're a victim)

Apparently, the fact that the Delta MEC was funding an MEC operation that consisted of 5 times as many reps as Comair, with a Flight Pay Loss cost basis well above Comair's, is lost on you. 4th grade math tells us that it might cost 5 times as much to pay for an operation that's 5 times as large. This may shock you too...but I have it on good authority that Delta pilot's dues subsidized (and still do) Comair's operations. That's because Delta pilots (and UAL, NWA, FDX, CAL, etc pilots) pay more into ALPA than they receive in direct operating funding.

You know that. Why do you ignore it?

This is why the Comair pilots assessed themselves an additional 1.5% during bargaining. ALPA was threatening to cut off funding in the middle of negotiations (for the contract we just lost) because the Comair MEC was "overspending." In fact, ALPA published the public newsletter Heads Up during our Section 6 telegraphing to management that we were on the ropes financially within the association. Management must have smiled when they read that rag. Does that sound like "trade union" behavior to you?

The CMR MEC voted to assess their own pilots. I don't know why they chose to do that, and since our Association gives them the autonomous authority to do it...I don't care. Dick d. contributes to this Forum...perhaps he can weigh-in.

I do know that the ComairMEC chose to fund an Executive Administrator, when MECs such as NWA chose not too. Perhaps that type of fiscal prioritization can have an impact on the bottom line?

$170 per pilot per year is woefully inadequate during normal operations let alone bargaining. The reality is that in a union where everyone is supposedly represented equally, Comair and other small carriers are routinely underfunded. ALPA's dirty little secret.

"Secret"? Get real! They receive MORE than they pay in...and that's unfair? Last year, Comair pilots received a large disbursement from the MCF to conduct Family Awareness and Strike Prep activities. They actually received MORE, as a percentage of their pilot group's size, than the Delta pilots received last year from the MCF. My source is the Strike Oversight Board rep, who handled both airlines, and signed-off on each airline's expenses.

The problem isn't just management.

Agree!

It's a whole array of forces that tend to undermine our strength, unity, and leverage:

- The government.
- The Railway Labor Act
- The courts
- Parochial knotheads (APAAD, etc)
- The Cult of Victims (RJDC whiners)
 
Ok, I have to raise the BS flag here... What exactly about Bill Clinton was so "Pro Pilot"?? What did he do for the APA when they were ready to walk? remind me..

The APA asked Clinton to intervene.

Clinton settled the NWA strike by forcing management to meet our terms. I was in the room when his Chief Counsel, Bruce Lindsay, gave Ben Hirst (the NWA VP running their negotiations) the news.

Now, share your first person accounts...
 
Fred D. Thompson also seems to have his head on semi-straight. I would like to see his views on labor though.

I agree, he does seem to posses a lot of common sense, and not be bought and paid for by Big Business.
 
You are doing allot of guessing... Guess what...all the airlines listed have had poor management teams....
Rez, I didn't have the opportunity to work for all of the mentioned carriers, of course I'm going to guess.
He wasn't found incompetent. He was found detrimental to the industry and banned for his destructive pratices. I suggest reading Hard Landing.
Patato, potato. All these reading assignments, are you the guy everyone speaks of? Airline pilot by day...Librarian at night??? Head of the ICL (International Council of Librarians)...:)

Finally, the EAL guys did what they could. And where is EAL now? The great Airline of Eddie Rickenbacker?
??? I already told you they shut Eastern down.
 

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