ALPA chest thumpers

[saabservant]

Regarding labor staying together, the Mesaba Labor Coalition was quite effective in thwarting mgmt. attempts to divide and conquer, or split off groups from each other. A contrast to what happened at NWA...

NWA FA's are now appealing to full circuit court for right to strike...you go girls!...

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I agree with Merlin, form your own Union. Taylor it to the needs of the Skywest pilots. This idea that ALPA can "fairly" represent your airline, and every other regional out there in deregulation is a farce. It's every airline for itself. You won't get any real backing from mainline, ever. And it's not the jobs of the other regionals to make sure you guys get what you're owed. You guys won't be any different when you vote in ALPA. You'll get your COLA...maybe a small bump in pay, ALPA might tie it up for you in a 32 year contract (Ok, I exagerate sometimes) but give it a few weeks, and you'll ask yourself why ALPA didn't get more for you. And then your next contract will come up, and ALPA will really waffle...and then you guys will be b!tching with the rest of the regionals.

and SIUCAVFLIGHT has a point, every regional out there does suck. They are crap jobs. If you think otherwise, you're seriously deluded.

A COLA and a small bump in pay would be a lot better than the 0% or 1% that SAPA "negotiated" along with ZERO COLA for 101/2 years!!!!

 

[CopilotDoug]

it would still be two more "wins" than all non-union outfits combined.

You might be correct if you didn't count charter and smaller 135 outfits, where who you know goes along way. Never hurts to have "pictures" of high ranking company officers...

 

[CopilotDoug]

A COLA and a small bump in pay would be a lot better than the 0% or 1% that SAPA "negotiated" along with ZERO COLA for 101/2 years!!!!

I agree!!! What are we yelling for!!!!?

It's my position that you would still be able to get this with a Union besides ALPA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I agree!!! What are we yelling for!!!!?

It's my position that you would still be able to get this with a Union besides ALPA.

And when Fed law is changed to allow your job to be outsourced will it matter? and what will you and your "in house" have done to stop it....

 

[ohplease!]

And when Fed law is changed to allow your job to be outsourced will it matter? and what will you and your "in house" have done to stop it....

about the same as alpa has done.....nada.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

about the same as alpa has done.....nada.

Sorry my uninformed pilot, but ALPA was hammering out protections in the latest US/EU open skies agreement to include contingency language for future protections of labor. It was a knock out/drag out brawl session that would make the hard core radicals blush.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

And when Fed law is changed to allow your job to be outsourced will it matter? and what will you and your "in house" have done to stop it....

What has ALPA done to guarantee it won't happen?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Sorry my uninformed pilot, but ALPA was hammering out protections in the latest US/EU open skies agreement to include contingency language for future protections of labor. It was a knock out/drag out brawl session that would make the hard core radicals blush.....

And how many governments want the open skies agreement?

 

[JoeMerchant]

And when Fed law is changed to allow your job to be outsourced will it matter? and what will you and your "in house" have done to stop it....

Federal law already allows my job to be outsourced.... to fellow ALPA members. Maybe we should work on solving our domestic outsourcing problem before we get too worried about foreign outsourcing. I'm more worried about my job getting outsourced to cheaper portfolio members...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sorry my uninformed pilot, but ALPA was hammering out protections in the latest US/EU open skies agreement to include contingency language for future protections of labor. It was a knock out/drag out brawl session that would make the hard core radicals blush.....

Fellow union members competing within the portfolio pose more of a threat than foreign countries that can't even train enough pilots for their own needs. India is outsourcing much of it's pilot force to the US.... kinda ironic ehhh....

In fact, we have ASA pilots trying to get hired in India because it pays more than here.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What has ALPA done to guarantee it won't happen?

In the recent US/EU TA contignecy language was written to be revisted. Labor groups were sought to be excluded. ALPA and the TTD fought hard to have labor included. Labor won.

ALPA works.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And how many governments want the open skies agreement?

All of them with a place in the market

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Federal law already allows my job to be outsourced.... to fellow ALPA members. Maybe we should work on solving our domestic outsourcing problem before we get too worried about foreign outsourcing. I'm more worried about my job getting outsourced to cheaper portfolio members...

How about we work both issues Joe... you are so myopic.... you can focus on local issues and ignore the tsunami on the way...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Fellow union members competing within the portfolio pose more of a threat than foreign countries that can't even train enough pilots for their own needs. India is outsourcing much of it's pilot force to the US.... kinda ironic ehhh....

In fact, we have ASA pilots trying to get hired in India because it pays more than here.....

Language allowing foreign pilots to fly our jets today may not seem immediate but when the market changes in 10-15 years, we will want those protections.

See, ALPA and the TTD are trying to work the long term issues and you still try to devalue them....

You are not going to happy until your RJDC issue is resolved... in your favor I might add....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Federal law already allows my job to be outsourced.... to fellow ALPA members. Maybe we should work on solving our domestic outsourcing problem before we get too worried about foreign outsourcing. I'm more worried about my job getting outsourced to cheaper portfolio members...

That's a good point.

 

[JoeMerchant]

How about we work both issues Joe... you are so myopic.... you can focus on local issues and ignore the tsunami on the way...

We have different opinions of what constitutes the "tsunami". You think it is the threat of foreign pilots taking our jobs. I think it is losing my job to fellow union members, mainline or regional, who are willing to do the job for less.

I am worried about the tsunami, problem is it has already swamped us all and you are more worried about a little ripple on the water. My replacement will come from a domestic union represented carrier, not from India....

Maybe ALPA should have worried about the "tsunami" 12 years ago when if first started looking into the scope issue.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Language allowing foreign pilots to fly our jets today may not seem immediate but when the market changes in 10-15 years, we will want those protections.

See, ALPA and the TTD are trying to work the long term issues and you still try to devalue them....

You are not going to happy until your RJDC issue is resolved... in your favor I might add....

ALPA ignored the scope problem for years.... Some long term scope planning would have been nice when the first ALPA scope committee was formed in 1995. Something important must have come up to distract them... like LAHSO...

Anyway, if my job isn't secure short term from fellow ALPA portfolio players, then I don't really care what happens in 10-15 years. I'm not going to be happy until ALPA puts a stop to domestic whipsaw amongst fellow "union" groups. Let's fix our own house before you get too worried about the neighbor's house....

 

[John Pennekamp]

Language allowing foreign pilots to fly our jets today may not seem immediate but when the market changes in 10-15 years, we will want those protections.

See, ALPA and the TTD are trying to work the long term issues and you still try to devalue them....

You are not going to happy until your RJDC issue is resolved... in your favor I might add....

Rez, I hate to point this out, but you are just as myopic by chanting the ALPA rep party line. You are beating the ALPA drum because it is what's expected of you. Try to step outside the box and look at the whole issue.

ICAO and the DOT have much more to do with foreign ownership and outsourcing than ALPA ever will. Just like age 65, ALPA will be consulted only after the decision has been made.

Alter ego is truly a bigger and more immediate problem facing our industry, and it's something well within ALPA's control. Compass, Mid Atlantic, and possibly a new entry from Delta are just the beginning. You also have independent MECs (like Mesa) fighting for a piece of an ever shrinking pie. All of this is causing an immediate threat to ALPA members at "Small Jet" carriers. Meanwhile, mainline MEC members and reps are ordering 100 dollar bottles of wine at ALPA paid dinners and toasting their success in "Takin' it Back" with the new president.

When will we get to "take it back"? Seems to me like the only taking it back is going to be the flying we currently do going back to mainline.

Until ALPA wakes up and treats all members fairly, with equal representation at the Executive Council level, it will always be a caste system. This is what's wrong with our union.

And I'm not an RJDC supporter, so you can't dismiss my argument by labeling me with that one.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Rez, I hate to point this out, but you are just as myopic by chanting the ALPA rep party line. You are beating the ALPA drum because it is what's expected of you. Try to step outside the box and look at the whole issue.

ICAO and the DOT have much more to do with foreign ownership and outsourcing than ALPA ever will. Just like age 65, ALPA will be consulted only after the decision has been made.

Alter ego is truly a bigger and more immediate problem facing our industry, and it's something well within ALPA's control. Compass, Mid Atlantic, and possibly a new entry from Delta are just the beginning. You also have independent MECs (like Mesa) fighting for a piece of an ever shrinking pie. All of this is causing an immediate threat to ALPA members at "Small Jet" carriers. Meanwhile, mainline MEC members and reps are ordering 100 dollar bottles of wine at ALPA paid dinners and toasting their success in "Takin' it Back" with the new president.

When will we get to "take it back"? Seems to me like the only taking it back is going to be the flying we currently do going back to mainline.

Until ALPA wakes up and treats all members fairly, with equal representation at the Executive Council level, it will always be a caste system. This is what's wrong with our union.

And I'm not an RJDC supporter, so you can't dismiss my argument by labeling me with that one.

WOW... couldn't have said it better.

Hey Rez... if Pennekamp and I can agree as much as we have in the past few weeks there is hope for ALPA....

 

[ohplease!]

Rez, I hate to point this out, but you are just as myopic by chanting the ALPA rep party line. You are beating the ALPA drum because it is what's expected of you. Try to step outside the box and look at the whole issue.

ICAO and the DOT have much more to do with foreign ownership and outsourcing than ALPA ever will. Just like age 65, ALPA will be consulted only after the decision has been made.

Alter ego is truly a bigger and more immediate problem facing our industry, and it's something well within ALPA's control. Compass, Mid Atlantic, and possibly a new entry from Delta are just the beginning. You also have independent MECs (like Mesa) fighting for a piece of an ever shrinking pie. All of this is causing an immediate threat to ALPA members at "Small Jet" carriers. Meanwhile, mainline MEC members and reps are ordering 100 dollar bottles of wine at ALPA paid dinners and toasting their success in "Takin' it Back" with the new president.

When will we get to "take it back"? Seems to me like the only taking it back is going to be the flying we currently do going back to mainline.

Until ALPA wakes up and treats all members fairly, with equal representation at the Executive Council level, it will always be a caste system. This is what's wrong with our union.

And I'm not an RJDC supporter, so you can't dismiss my argument by labeling me with that one.

see. I've told you in the past that you and I agree on more than you would ever believe. There is hope for you yet...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, I hate to point this out, but you are just as myopic by chanting the ALPA rep party line. You are beating the ALPA drum because it is what's expected of you. Try to step outside the box and look at the whole issue.

I am myopic because I challenge the membership to get educated, attend LEC meetings, vote. Basically become activist....

ICAO and the DOT have much more to do with foreign ownership and outsourcing than ALPA ever will. Just like age 65, ALPA will be consulted only after the decision has been made.

Not true. Sure ALPA is not a major player. Do you expect them to be and if so why?

Alter ego is truly a bigger and more immediate problem facing our industry, and it's something well within ALPA's control. Compass, Mid Atlantic, and possibly a new entry from Delta are just the beginning. You also have independent MECs (like Mesa) fighting for a piece of an ever shrinking pie. All of this is causing an immediate threat to ALPA members at "Small Jet" carriers. Meanwhile, mainline MEC members and reps are ordering 100 dollar bottles of wine at ALPA paid dinners and toasting their success in "Takin' it Back" with the new president.

So lets work the ISSUE! I am not saying we can work on your scope deal. But if you want to focus on dinner menu's then it will take a much longer time.

I recently volunteered two days off to ALPA work. can I charge you two 10 hour days times my hourly rate? No. it is volunteer work.

When will we get to "take it back"? Seems to me like the only taking it back is going to be the flying we currently do going back to mainline.

OK... what is your point?

Until ALPA wakes up and treats all members fairly, with equal representation at the Executive Council level, it will always be a caste system. This is what's wrong with our union.

What exactly are you looking for. Explain it... without mantra, rehtoric and $100 bottle of wine. What is the issue and how do we solve it. Solutions please. Not just angst and bitter...

And I'm not an RJDC supporter, so you can't dismiss my argument by labeling me with that one.

No worries. Just be solution driven...

 

[John Pennekamp]

I am myopic because I challenge the membership to get educated, attend LEC meetings, vote. Basically become activist....

You are myopic because you are brainwashed, and are parroting the ALPA party line, like may other ALPA reps. What you ask of the membership is a pipe dream. They want you to open their heads and pour the information in. They don't want to get involved. When you've been doing this for a while, you will understand. Your membership would be much better served, however, by someone who can look at both sides of the issue and ask critical question, not tell everyone what to think.


Not true. Sure ALPA is not a major player. Do you expect them to be and if so why?

Which part isn't true? How much influence do you really think ALPA will have on the age 65 rule?

So lets work the ISSUE! I am not saying we can work on your scope deal. But if you want to focus on dinner menu's then it will take a much longer time.

I recently volunteered two days off to ALPA work. can I charge you two 10 hour days times my hourly rate? No. it is volunteer work.

I once volunteered 5 years of my life to ALPA work. Your point?

OK... what is your point?

My point is that you need to treat ALPA with suspicion. Look at both sides of the issues before you make a decision. The truth is always in the middle of the rhetoric

What exactly are you looking for. Explain it... without mantra, rhetoric and $100 bottle of wine. What is the issue and how do we solve it. Solutions please. Not just angst and bitter...

Are you disputing this? I've been to these dinners. I'm neither spreading angst nor bitter. The fact is that "ALPA with a Capital A" couldn't really care less what the "Small Jet" MECs think, as long as we don't cause too much trouble. And Prater learned very quickly where his support comes from. His "Takin; it Back" campaign isn't including us. I want it to.

No worries. Just be solution driven...

No worries, just be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Resist the pressure you are under and question what's happening in ALPA. Lots of it is good, but how often do the "Small Jet" carriers really get anything good? We are 45% of ALPA membership, but outgunned 6-1 on the Executive Council.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No doubt you have points.... You never responded though to the volunteer time given. Is that expected? Nonetheless...I've heard your complaints... and ALPA's got problems. Agreed. It isn't a perfect system.. so lets deal with it instead of being pissed and accusatory....

So flush or get off the pot....

cause I am tired of you whining about the cold hard seat....

 

[John Pennekamp]

No doubt you have points.... You never responded though to the volunteer time given. Is that expected? Nonetheless...I've heard your complaints... and ALPA's got problems. Agreed. It isn't a perfect system.. so lets deal with it instead of being pissed and accusatory....

So flush or get off the pot....

cause I am tired of you whining about the cold hard seat....

I've done my tour of duty. It's your turn... you wanted the job. Now fix it!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I've done my tour of duty. It's your turn... you wanted the job. Now fix it!

I'll do my best. Would you mind keeping it down over there in the cheap seats?:beer:

 

[John Pennekamp]

I'll do my best. Would you mind keeping it down over there in the cheap seats?:beer:

No, you can count on me and many others here in the peanut gallery heckling you. That's part of the job.

You said your position is "fixing ALPA". Many before you have gone in thinking they would fix it too. They are the ones who got "fixed", in the sense of taking your male puppy to the vet. Don't let it happen to you, regardless of the peer pressure you feel from the other ALPA reps.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No, you can count on me and many others here in the peanut gallery heckling you. That's part of the job.

And why would you do that?

You said your position is "fixing ALPA". Many before you have gone in thinking they would fix it too. They are the ones who got "fixed", in the sense of taking your male puppy to the vet. Don't let it happen to you, regardless of the peer pressure you feel from the other ALPA reps.

Thanks for your support.

 

[merlindrvr88]

What?

And why would you do that?



Thanks for your support.

What's wrong with something new Rez? Maybe unions at each seperate airline might be the best solution. ALPO can't represent mainline and regionals at the same time. Lawyers call that a conflict of interest. Wake up Rez and give me a call, I will clue you in on ALPO. 928-846-1364. please give me a call, unless you don't want to hear some facts.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What's wrong with something new Rez? Maybe unions at each seperate airline might be the best solution. ALPO can't represent mainline and regionals at the same time. Lawyers call that a conflict of interest. Wake up Rez and give me a call, I will clue you in on ALPO. 928-846-1364. please give me a call, unless you don't want to hear some facts.

I am all for change and innovation...

In addition, I agree the situation is broke. Let's fix it.

What ideas do you have that are workable?


And this is the roadblock... the ideas haven't surfaced.... No one wants to take responsibility.. they just want to point fingers and say..."see it's FUBAR and THEY won't fix it!!"