ALPA chest thumpers

[CopilotDoug]

we need a 3rd party.

All we have to choose from now is BAD and WORSE

 

[XJ-spartacus]

I think the simple solution to this arguement is that unions are a basic requirement in this industry, but ALPA sucks at acting like one. Now who's got some beer?

-Spartacus

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

to allow the DoD to hire the likes of Egypt Air (they of the suicidal F/O) to fly our military personnel in/out of war zones.

Now now Occam... suicidal..please.. that was never proven. My egyptian insiders tell me he was trying to save the jet! Besides the free market economy should be able to have Egypt Air and Iraqi Airways (flying soon!) move our troops to the next LZ... What is a few suicidal pilots compared to unbridaled capitalism with limited worker rights and protections all in the name of the beloved dollar?!! Besides the TSA is doing a great job!!

Free market should also allow Dubai ports.

Free market should also allow ICAO and the MCL or multi crew licensing to put foreign labor into our flight decks with 250 total time. YES! The free market should allow islamic indonesian pilots with zero time to be flying widebody jets into the USA after 250hours TT. Downtown Los Angeles baby! San Fran here we come! Heck they will fly our domestic routes for us too...with no benefits and for a fraction of our hourly rate. They don't want a healthcare plan...they've never had one!! YEAH BABY I love the free market.


News Flash kids... your freindly politician, whether it be Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton may be your friend on one issue and your adversary on another.

GET OFF THE POLITICAN AND FOCUS ON THE ISSUE!

If you think Bill screwed the APA...fine..but don't write him off to help us in the future... or any other politician. Politics makes strange bed fellows...

If you think the 250TT foreign flying jets over our country is obscure.....think again. It is already happening.

The TA on the US/EU open skies agreement has some negative career defining triggers in it. So if you want to keep making payments on that ERAU or UND education for a defunct job... keep your head in the sand or keep calling ALPA useless.

Otherwise man up. cause the amature hour mind set we got on protecting our careers has got to go....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Give me a good contract and I'll mail a check to my pet "causes".

How else will you do so?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's fair enough, I'll accept that as a plus.

What about the efforts of the AFL-CIO and ALPA to prevent Captains from being defined as a supervisor and thus not eligable for union membership and CBA rights. There is a push to do this to nurses. http://blog.aflcio.org/2006/08/09/chicago-nurses-we’re-not-supervisors/

What about the push to make "going on strike" a felony...and there for not eligable for a SIDA badge or employment.. stopped by the TTD of the AFL-CIO of which ALPA is a member. Not SWAPA, not APA, not Skywest pilots, not NPA or IPA.....

Port Security Bill– Oct. 2, 2006

The first issue is the continued attacks on American workers' right to strike, particularly transportation workers. As you know, Congress has recessed, but before they left, there were some astoundingly egregious attempts to further erode workers' rights to strike, particularly in transportation. In the Port Security bill that went to conference, there was an attempt to introduce language to equate a legal strike by port workers with an act of terrorism, and that would allow the president to mobilize the armed forces to take over the docks in the event of a strike. We mobilized the Transportation Trades Department of the AFL-CIO instead and had that language killed.

In the same Port Security bill, attempts were made to legislate language about crimes that would prohibit transportation workers from being allowed to work and get a security clearance. Transportation-security-incident language was introduced to make it possible to interpret participation in a legal strike as a disqualifying event to work in transportation. Again, we had to work extremely hard in the late hours before Congress left to get that language killed, but we did. Transportation workers, you are not paranoid. They are out to get you and limit your rights as free Americans.
​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, I didn't have the opportunity to work for all of the mentioned carriers, of course I'm going to guess.
Patato, potato. All these reading assignments, are you the guy everyone speaks of? Airline pilot by day...Librarian at night??? Head of the ICL (International Council of Librarians)...

.

How did you get thru school? Or did you?:beer:

 

[NoahWerka]

What has ALPA done for you, EVER? Besides take your money and delay your contract for 5+ years.

Only two reasons to be in ALPO if you are able to be. Medical help and Legal representation. Have a Medical problem, ALPO will take care of it. Legal problems? Can you afford $40,000 for an aviation lawyer, if need be? Dues are for the best insurance going. Those two things are worth it. Not much any help anywhere else.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Only two reasons to be in ALPO if you are able to be. Medical help and Legal representation. Have a Medical problem, ALPO will take care of it. Legal problems? Can you afford $40,000 for an aviation lawyer, if need be? Dues are for the best insurance going. Those two things are worth it. Not much any help anywhere else.

What about negotiating terms for the US/EU open skies agreement as to how labor will be effected on CapHill and in Europe.

Do you even know where to go in Europe to discuss the issues of US Air Line Pilots?

 

[mach none]

What has ALPA done for you, EVER? Besides take your money and delay your contract for 5+ years.

Idiot

 

[N2264J]

The CMR MEC voted to assess their own pilots. I don't know why they chose to do that, and since our Association gives them the autonomous authority to do it...I don't care.

I told you why and apparently, you weren't paying attention. ALPA was cutting us off.

Over an 18 month period between December 97 and May 99, the Comair MEC told the Executive Council that they were going to assess their pilots so Comair wouldn't be a burden on the association. They were counseled by National Officers individually and the Executive Council in session that the money needed for negotiations would not be a problem and a self assessment of Comair pilots may create the appearance that ALPA doesn’t support them. Then in May of 1999, during Comair bargaining, the MEC received a letter from the new Vice President of Finance stating that the Operating Contingency Fund (OCF) was dry and there would be no more grant money available after July 99.

Considering the scope proposals advanced by the Delta MEC for CY2K, is it a coincidence the OCF went belly up during our contract negotiations? Does the fact that the duty of fair representation lawsuit Duke/Spellacy, was being settled for an undisclosed amount (ALPA sold their crown jewel of real estate, 1625 Massachusetts Ave. two blocks from the capitol building in downtown Washington DC, shortly after the settlement) have anything to do with the depletion of the Operating Contingency Fund in 1999 or is it, as ALPA asserts in the short lived publication, Heads Up, only the 20 deficit spending MEC’s that exhausted the OCF? Whatever, ALPA was pulling up the ladder.

The MEC had hoped that if there was an assessment at all, they could put it out to a pilot vote. A strike vote with dollars would tell management something about the pilots and tell the pilots something about themselves. After receiving the OCF letter in May, there wasn’t time for that. The Comair MEC had a total of $97,000 to get them through six months of negotiations and that just wasn’t enough. An assessment had to be imposed.

From the “Whatever it Takes” package: “On May 18th, 1999, ALPA’s Executive Board passed a resolution (recommended by the Executive Council) requiring certain MEC’s including Comair, to obtain advance approval from the national Association for all Flight Pay Loss and directing further that we (some 20 airlines) operate within the Spending Limit Formula budget allocation. On May 25th, the ALPA Vice President Finance directed that we comply with three different procedures. It was made patently clear that unless we complied immediately, ALPA would impose an assessment on the “offending” MECs. On that same day (May 25), the Comair MEC Chairman called a special meeting of the MEC to address this issue.

Comair requested 795 hours of FPL for the months of June and July. ALPA approved 570 hours for June and 400 hours for July. We were told that after July, no further FPL would be approved. When the MEC met, there were three available options: 1) shut down the union at CMR and discontinue negotiations: 2) accept a pending assessment directed by ALPA (this would allow ALPA to tax the assessment and keep 60% [FY98 taxes] of the money); 3) immediately authorize a Special MEC Assessment (this would allow the MEC to control the use of the Assessment income).”

The money problems we had leading up to the assessment are not unique within ALPA. The smaller carriers don’t earn enough income to generate the money necessary to support a viable local structure after ALPA's SLF taxes are paid. It's ALPA's dirty little secret.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Here's what I read: "Blah, whine, blah, blah, we spent more than our budget, blah, blah, blah, gave out more FPL than we should have, blah, blah, my uterus hurts, blah, blah, I shouldn't have to live under a budget like every other MEC did, blah, blah, whine, whine."

My guess is that your inner Voice Of Reason is probably hoarse and frustrated after years of having it's screaming ignored.

Good luck with that.

When your orbit hits perigee and you can get a clear message to us again, can you explain why CMR was the only one of ALPA's many MEC's to experience the money crunch they did?

 

[N2264J]

When your orbit hits perigee and you can get a clear message to us again, can you explain why CMR was the only one of ALPA's many MEC's to experience the money crunch they did?

We weren't. There were 20 MECs all mentioned by name in the ALPA rag: Heads Up to Management.

We were the only ones negotiating.

 

[CopilotDoug]

We weren't. There were 20 MECs all mentioned by name in the ALPA rag: Heads Up to Management.

We were the only ones negotiating.

N2264J,

To your knowledge, you hear anything about a vote at Comair to replace the MEC a little while back? Something involving an LEC?

 

[N2264J]

To your knowledge, you hear anything about a vote at Comair to replace the MEC a little while back? Something involving an LEC?

That would be a question for the MEC.

I'm not qualified to answer.

 

[CopilotDoug]

That would be a question for the MEC.

I'm not qualified to answer.

Fair enough

 

[DrewBlows]

N2264J,

To your knowledge, you hear anything about a vote at Comair to replace the MEC a little while back? Something involving an LEC?

There was a scheduled election last year (November or December). I wouldn't call it a vote to "replace the MEC", just as I wouldn't call a US representative election (every 2 years) a vote to "replace" your representative, but you can call it anything you would like.

 

[DX Rick]

So why didn't the Comair MEC stress to it's pilots that after Delta emerged from BK, that CMR and the Union would come back to the table for negotiations?

Don't tell me that DAL would not have emerged from BK if the
CMR pilots didnt take cuts. It's a load of crap, and everyone knows it is.
Anyone with half a brain knows consessions from it's Pilots wont save the airline.

Instead they said "Take pay cuts, or take pay cuts" not offering another option. The big stink of it all, is that National ALPA never came in to assist. Oh wait, Dwaune Worthless showed for a dinner a couple of weeks before the vote.

The ironic thing. Prater started his new "Taking it back" campaign that same week the vote went through. You'd think the man would be in CVG to kick off his new campaign, fighting against CMR pilots taking pay cuts. Instead he's down in ATL talking to the AirTran pilots.

Hey Prater, we're "Taking it back"....... right in the a$$

 

[PCL_128]

The big stink of it all, is that National ALPA never came in to assist.

I don't know what your source is, but find a new one. ALPA provided plenty of assistance to the CMR MEC during these negotiations. ALPA resources are available to every MEC.

 

[DX Rick]

I don't know what your source is, but find a new one. ALPA provided plenty of assistance to the CMR MEC during these negotiations. ALPA resources are available to every MEC.

Heard nothing of it here. So then ALPA National said "take pay cuts"......When Prater was starting his "Taking it up the Arse" Campaign?

 

[PCL_128]

Heard nothing of it here. So then ALPA National said "take pay cuts"......When Prater was starting his "Taking it up the Arse" Campaign?

I was in Herndon while Captain Prater was there when the CMR MEC called to notify him of the TA. He certainly wasn't happy that concessions had to be made, but he saw no choice in the matter with Delta in bankruptcy. Captain Prater's biggest priority is changing the bankruptcy laws so management can't do this to us again. Don't be mad at ALPA. Be mad at a government that allows this nonsense to go on. But more importantly, be part of the solution. Contribute to ALPA-PAC so we can change these despicable bankruptcy laws.

 

[XJohXJ]

Mesaba isn't perfect, and ALPA isn't perfect, but ALPA gave us a staggering amount of financial, legal, and other assistance when we were fighting Mesaba's BK proceedings.

The problem is not with ALPA or any particular labor group's "resolve". The problem is entirely within the BK laws which are firmly stacked against labor. The BK laws are 100% pro-corporation, and I'm sure any investigation would reveal that the laws were in fact written by the corporations and their legal teams.

If it wasn't for ALPA, things would have been far far worse at Mesaba under BK.

 

[DX Rick]

I was in Herndon while Captain Prater was there when the CMR MEC called to notify him of the TA. He certainly wasn't happy that concessions had to be made, but he saw no choice in the matter with Delta in bankruptcy. Captain Prater's biggest priority is changing the bankruptcy laws so management can't do this to us again. Don't be mad at ALPA. Be mad at a government that allows this nonsense to go on. But more importantly, be part of the solution. Contribute to ALPA-PAC so we can change these despicable bankruptcy laws.

Oh, you were there with Prater....loddy friggin da!

"He certainly wasn't happy" .....yeah, glad he wasn't happy that we all took pay cuts, and he's still making his fat wad of dough.

"but he saw no choice" ......Really? What about the choice of not voting to take cuts, and then going to the table after DAL emerged from BK?
That sounds like a dang good choice.

I don't know why you are so thick in the head to see that the Airline didn't need to pilots to take pay cuts to survive. We gave $18mil in cuts. A week later, DAL management split up $14mil in bonuses. Wonder where they got that money?

Like Rez said "It's a game" ....and ALPA is that fat kid in the corner who constantly gets beat up on.

 

[merlindrvr88]

Ok

I was in Herndon while Captain Prater was there when the CMR MEC called to notify him of the TA. He certainly wasn't happy that concessions had to be made, but he saw no choice in the matter with Delta in bankruptcy. Captain Prater's biggest priority is changing the bankruptcy laws so management can't do this to us again. Don't be mad at ALPA. Be mad at a government that allows this nonsense to go on. But more importantly, be part of the solution. Contribute to ALPA-PAC so we can change these despicable bankruptcy laws.

We can be mad at the government idiot. The government isn't collecting dues. ALPO collects dues, and then says "don't be mad at us, be mad at the government". Get a clue moron, if ALPO says it wil protect people, then protect them. Captain Prater is all tore up, so is my wife and 3 kids. Grow up dipsit, we are real people. ALPO SUCKS, listen to the masses.

 

[CopilotDoug]

I was in Herndon while Captain Prater was there when the CMR MEC called to notify him of the TA. He certainly wasn't happy that concessions had to be made, but he saw no choice in the matter with Delta in bankruptcy.

Sounds like an excuse...

Captain Prater's biggest priority is changing the bankruptcy laws so management can't do this to us again. Don't be mad at ALPA. Be mad at a government that allows this nonsense to go on.

...and another excuse...

But more importantly, be part of the solution. Contribute to ALPA-PAC so we can change these despicable bankruptcy laws.

HA! And Prater has the gall to ask for a donation, from your reduced paycheck! For what? So he can come up with another excuse???

 

[DX Rick]

We ALPO collects dues, and then says "don't be mad at us, be mad at the government". .

ALPA sure does love to deflect the anger. It's either:

"Don't be mad at us, it's the company you should be mad at!"

OR-

"Don't be mad at us, hate the government"

How About --- "Yeah, we suggested you take pay cuts...we'll give you're dues back"

 

[737 Pylt]

How about this one: You alpa freaks are nuts. It scares the he!! outta' me that such a mentally deranged/challenged person could be allowed to be in command of a kite, much less an aircraft with innocent passengers on it.

LMFA!:laugh:
This coming from the KING of dumbasses!
How goes management training tool?

737

 

[PCL_128]

"He certainly wasn't happy" .....yeah, glad he wasn't happy that we all took pay cuts, and he's still making his fat wad of dough.

The CAL pilots took paycuts after 9/11 just like all other Legacy pilots. You aren't alone in your suffering, so don't pretend that someone like Captain Prater who spent three years on strike doesn't know what it's like to suffer in this business.

"but he saw no choice" ......Really? What about the choice of not voting to take cuts, and then going to the table after DAL emerged from BK?
That sounds like a dang good choice.

If you hadn't taken the paycuts, then CMR management would have simply imposed the worse cuts that they originally proposed and you'd be in much worse shape. You want to know what happens if you take that route? Look at the NWA FAs. They played the game you're talking about, and the appeals court just backed up the strike injunction. The NWA FAs are now stuck with imposed terms that are far worse than what they could have voted to accept. Now they'll go back into Section 6 when NWA exits from bankruptcy and probably spend four years negotiating a new contract while still working under imposed conditions. Yeah, that's probably the best way to go.

I don't know why you are so thick in the head to see that the Airline didn't need to pilots to take pay cuts to survive.

I agree with you. CMR/DAL didn't need any CMR paycuts to survive at all. But that's not the issue. The issue is that current bankruptcy laws allow them to impose cuts on you anyway. Stop thinking about what's fair, and start thinking about the reality of the laws. The laws are certainly not fair to labor right now. Let's be productive and change that rather than attacking our own union.

 

[DX Rick]

I agree with you. CMR/DAL didn't need any CMR paycuts to survive at all. But that's not the issue. The issue is that current bankruptcy laws allow them to impose cuts on you anyway. Stop thinking about what's fair, and start thinking about the reality of the laws. The laws are certainly not fair to labor right now. Let's be productive and change that rather than attacking our own union.

I would have rather taken those wages pushed upon me, than taking some half assed pay cut.
CMR knows that if they would have imposed those wages, they would have guys walking off the property at a record rate. But they knew that it would never get that far, because too many girls are affraid of standing up for what they believe in.

93% of the ASA group has voted to strike. I am willing to bet 1 yrs pay that no strike takes place because ALPA will "advise" them not too.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We can be mad at the government idiot. The government isn't collecting dues.

No they are collecting taxes which you have no choice to pay which supports an very anit labor administration. If you don't want to pay union dues then don't join a union. OR don't apply for a job in which union dues is a part of the deal.

Is reality and self responsibility a possibility...

ALPO collects dues, and then says "don't be mad at us, be mad at the government".

Everything begins and ends on CapHill.... ALPA is simply a little elf amongts the tens of thousands of giants trying to get protection from its members.

Get a clue moron, if ALPO says it wil protect people, then protect them.

Can you loan your magic wand Fairy Godmother....? I am not sure if reality is possible, but one can hope.

Captain Prater is all tore up, so is my wife and 3 kids. Grow up dipsit, we are real people. ALPO SUCKS, listen to the masses.

I am not sure you are too familiar with how things operate. Your post suggest that by sending in your dues that is a gurantee that everything will be fine.

Part of the memberships failed expectations are ALPA's fault. But that doesn't mean as a professional over the age of 18 you cannot get informed and educated.

It is very fustrating that the source of effectiveness with ALPA is its members. The problem is so many members hate the very organization. Thus how can the organiztion progress and be effective if its very own members are regressive, divisive and angry?

Unions are political organizations. Airmanship skills aren't too helpful. Political skills are what gets our careers protected and progressed. If a ALPA leader becomes politically effective, meaning he moves the ball forward, the membership claims he is too much of a WashDC insider, that he is on the take and corrupt.

No one is going to do anything for anybody in DC. You've got to form alliances and support via quid pro quo. Thus when an ALPA leader makes advances for its pilots by giving up something to get something, its pilots go nuts. Becuase the average member thinks that it is readily apparent that we should have what we want.... that ALPA just needs to make them give it to us...

Nobody gets want they want in DC just cause they want it.....

 

[siucavflight]

Reading through this thread makes me realize how many of you are uninformed, and have opinions based on half truths and exagerations. If this is really the up and coming future generation of pilots then we as a group are in trouble.