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ALPA chest thumpers

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CopilotDoug said:
Where does this leave an airline like Mesa? Do they not have access to the same ALPA resources? Why the disparity in the contracts?

And I am not implying that ALPA has any maliscious intent towards any of the regionals.
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Mesa folks correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Mesa had to sell their souls to get Freedom brought under the contract. This is why their current agreement sucks.
 
The quality of the contract is decided between management and their pilot group. In effect, you end up having the Mesa Pilot Union...the Pinnacle Pilot Union...The ExpressJet Pilot Union, etc. Each airline is different, and has it's own set of Unique circumstances. To imply that ALPA will somehow level the playing field because they have a pool of resources to draw from is misleading. The Union will get what management is willing to give, regardless of ALPA "representation" or not. Save your money and invest in your own airline union instead of putting gas in Prater's Union Cadillac.

Wu...go back a few pages, you'll see I am pro-union. Just realistic.
 
I see two reasons why ALPA is powerless-
1. It is not, and does not function like a trade union. It does not control access to the profession, and does not act on behalf of all the members. It is only a loose association of locals, that negotiate on their own behalf with management teams that know how to isolate and play them off each other.
A lack of organizational discipline...And, it is controlled by a small number of senior pilots at large carriers,(by roll call vote) who have no interest in protecting jobs across the industry, as long as their own pay and pensions are looked after.
Outsourcing is not only ok'd but is recommended...

2. The executive and judicial branches are now hostile to us, rejecting our rights to withold services, and not allowing negotiations to come to a conclusion (the mediation board- bush controlled).

The only solution, as I see it, is to UNIFY all pilot groups under one set of standards, and to confront government and management with our grievances.
AND, to finally ignore the lawyers and start taking some real risks.
With the contingency fund, and our own careers and even our liberty.
I hear there is a national strike committee being formed within ALPA. Let's hope Mr. Prater has some real plans for them.
All it takes is a little leadership, as usual.

Without that, I'd advise pilots to steer clear of ALPA, or airline flying, and to stop dreaming that they will be the few who will come out ahead, so it does'nt matter what else happens...
 
CopilotDoug said:
As far as Regionals always doing better with ALPA, as a "fact"...well, you and I both know that's a matter of opinion.
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No it's not. Regional airlines receive more money and resources from ALPA National than they pay into the system, therefore they do better with ALPA than without (unless you know of some magical way to turn a certain amount of money into a greater amount of money).

Save your money and invest in your own airline union instead of putting gas in Prater's Union Cadillac.
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If your sole reason for not belonging to ALPA is so your dues money doesn't pass though ALPA National's hands, this would be a good idea. However if you want the resources that ALPA National provides you would have to pay dues that far exceed the 1.95% that ALPA members pay. This doesn't seem like a very good way to save money to me.
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
Do you have any other convincing thoughts?
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How about this one: You alpa freaks are nuts. It scares the he!! outta' me that such a mentally deranged/challenged person could be allowed to be in command of a kite, much less an aircraft with innocent passengers on it.
 
ohplease! said:
BS! Unbelievable BS!
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Go ahead and add it all up. The MEC will furnish you with the numbers. Give them a call if you have the balls to back up yet another asinine statement. Then let us know what you discovered.

We pay in FAR less than we get back. ASA alone has recieved a two million dollar grant for the last two years. That's in addition to our regular budget. Idiot.
 
John Pennekamp said:
Go ahead and add it all up. The MEC will furnish you with the numbers. Give them a call if you have the balls to back up yet another asinine statement. Then let us know what you discovered.

We pay in FAR less than we get back. ASA alone has recieved a two million dollar grant for the last two years. That's in addition to our regular budget. Idiot.
Click to expand...
You're smarter than this. I know you are. You must be. Right?!?!? Please tell me you're smarter than this......
 
ohplease! said:
astonished! Dumbfounded! Shocked! Maybe had I been wasted, I'd have been able to almost buy into this absurd notion.
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So are you going to go look up the numbers or not. We'll let you admit you're wrong now if you don't feel like crawling over there and showing your face.
 
John Pennekamp said:
So are you going to go look up the numbers or not. We'll let you admit you're wrong now if you don't feel like crawling over there and showing your face.
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too busy doing things that matter to play stupid alpa games today. Maybe monday. Although, if the MEC can't keep the numbers on our $ figure change from opening position for contract negotiations, I'll assume they won't have any other "real" figures either.
 
CopilotDoug said:
Where does this leave an airline like Mesa? Do they not have access to the same ALPA resources? Why the disparity in the contracts?

And I am not implying that ALPA has any maliscious intent towards any of the regionals.
Click to expand...

Doug,

Mesa had access to the same resources. Unfortunately Mesa was also dealing with a loaded gun to their head in the form of Freedom Airlines. Furthermore, all the resources in the world are no good if you don't know how to use them. As you pointed out, each individual MEC must manage its own process and pick the best people for the NC, etc.

-Neal
 
ohplease! said:
too busy doing things that matter to play stupid alpa games today. Maybe monday. Although, if the MEC can't keep the numbers on our $ figure change from opening position for contract negotiations, I'll assume they won't have any other "real" figures either.
Click to expand...

That was so lame! You just can't admit you're wrong can you?

That didn't even make sense. Alan, it's time to put your money where your mouth is or STFU.
 
ohplease! said:
BS! Unbelievable BS!
Click to expand...

How about this one: You alpa freaks are nuts. It scares the he!! outta' me that such a mentally deranged/challenged person could be allowed to be in command of a kite, much less an aircraft with innocent passengers on it.
Click to expand...

You're smarter than this. I know you are. You must be. Right?!?!? Please tell me you're smarter than this......
Click to expand...

astonished! Dumbfounded! Shocked! Maybe had I been wasted, I'd have been able to almost buy into this absurd notion.
Click to expand...

too busy doing things that matter to play stupid alpa games today. Maybe monday. Although, if the MEC can't keep the numbers on our $ figure change from opening position for contract negotiations, I'll assume they won't have any other "real" figures either.
Click to expand...

You have managed to post five times in a row without any coherent argument. Do you have any more pearls of wisdom, because we can't see you when you cover your ears and say "la la la la la la la la la...".
 
DrewBlows said:
No it's not. Regional airlines receive more money and resources from ALPA National than they pay into the system, therefore they do better with ALPA than without (unless you know of some magical way to turn a certain amount of money into a greater amount of money).
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I'll have to disagree with you, Drew. Skywest vs Mesa. Need I say more?

Saabservant...absolutely correct my man. At least someone else gets it.
 
The Anti guys like Oh please and newman haven't brought a valid argument in my opinion. Nice try whoever tried to derail the thread with abortion and gun control. I've been reading flying the line. (something you guys will probably call propaganda- I'll call history) These guys were perpetually forced into bad situations until they stood up and stopped it.

Isn't Mesa coming into negotiations this fall? Do you think a good MEC will not be ready for J.O. this time? Why do you think he's hedging this china deal. The next time a Freedom or Go Jet even comes close to emerging, it will be incumbant on every pilot out there regardless of union or airline to educate any newbie who even considers going.

A new form of scab list, nationally recognized with any person who crosses into this realm being placed on it has to be implemented. NO REPRIEVES! This is what I want out of a union. Only after pilots are convinced their careers are fu@#%d will this work. When Mgmt. can no longer get these pukes to come , they lose that option over us.

Sure they will find a new a new way to get over on you. But if you can't learn from Mesa's mistake a the table, what prevents it from happening to you? How are you gonna do that when your union isn't talking to theirs?

Can oh please or newman provide any options to this? Until then my votes going to be for One Voice.
 
John Pennekamp said:
Mesa folks correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Mesa had to sell their souls to get Freedom brought under the contract. This is why their current agreement sucks.
Click to expand...

Essentially that is correct.

Two points on this:

1. Freedom was created because of the mainline USAir scope language that prevented it's regionals from flying 70+ seat RJs even under other brands. Mesa was flying America West 700s and 900s. Therefor Mesa created another certificate to circumvent the USAir scope language. Another case of the "law of unintended circumstances"...

2. They paid short term for long term benefit. Hard pill to swallow, but sometimes necessary............ something to consider here at ASA... Trophy contracts don't mean squat if the flying is transferred......
 
John Pennekamp said:
Go ahead and add it all up. The MEC will furnish you with the numbers. Give them a call if you have the balls to back up yet another asinine statement. Then let us know what you discovered.

We pay in FAR less than we get back. ASA alone has recieved a two million dollar grant for the last two years. That's in addition to our regular budget. Idiot.
Click to expand...

I'm going to take BOTH sides in this argument... who says I can't compromise........ Yes we receive more money than we contribute, HOWEVER in the final analysis, it doesn't really matter. At ASA, we are spending about 1.5 million dollars a year on ALPA leave. We have about 11 or 12 people on full time ALPA leave. What good does money do if pattern bargaining reverses and carriers are forced to compete against one another?
 
Exskydiverdrivr said:
The Anti guys like Oh please and newman haven't brought a valid argument in my opinion. Nice try whoever tried to derail the thread with abortion and gun control. I've been reading flying the line. (something you guys will probably call propaganda- I'll call history) These guys were perpetually forced into bad situations until they stood up and stopped it.
Click to expand...

I brought up abortion and gun control becuase they are polarizing issues that many pilots focus on all while neglecting the issue that puts a roof over thier heads and feeds their family. The trick is to address all the issues and not get caught up in polarizing....

Flying the Line propganda?


Originally Posted by coolyokeluke
Read "Flying the Line" sometime. Sure it's pro-labor but you might get an understanding of how things were before pilots had any representation.
.
Click to expand...
Actually it isn't pro labor. George Hopkins initially wrote The Airline Pilots: A Study in Elite Unionization, 1971. He was asked by ALPA to write Flying the Line Vol. I, 1982. An incredible read with some dry spots. However required for anyone who gives 1.95% of their income.

Hopkins was asked again to write the second part, published in 2000, which included deregulation. You think Lorenzo was bad? Read about EL Cord. Also CR Smith whom AMR has named thier beloved museum after.


With copy of Vol II in hand turn to page XII of the Preface.

Hopkins, the books' author writes






JJ O'Donnell [then ALPA's president] asked me to write another history commemorating the unions 50th anniversary. With the understanding that I would give ALPA its history "warts and all," I agreed.

The result was Flying the Line; the First Half Century of the Airline Pilots Association, published in 1982. My interpretation of ALPA's history was not censored. I work for WesternIllionisUniversity specifically and for an abstraction called history" generally. Although frankly nervous about the book, O'Donnell understood that prettified "court history" praising the King (so to speak) would be worthless. If pilots were to derive insight from my book, it had to be free to go wherever truth took it.
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Hopkins placed his academic career on writing the truth and not being a chump.


Contact your LEC rep and ask for a copy. He might be able to get a complimentary copy. If not what is $10.

Then you can read about how pilots showed up for work, only to be met by an armed guard who escorted them to a company official. This company official handed the pilot both a resignation and an employment application....at a lower wage! (Vol I, chapter 6, page 48)

Coming to work nowadays isn't so bad.


Need more? Read 'When the Airlines Went to War' In this book you will read how Air Line Pilots disregarded thier labor contracts during WWII to 'transport the army and navy' and how the airlines trained Navigators, Pilots and mechanics by the thousands. The required rapid mobilzation of America's Air Power would have never happened if it wasn't for the US Airlines.

You'll earn a new respect for Airports like LGA and DCA, commonly refered to as sh1tholes by the ignorant. LGA and DCA have more history, culture and character than most of us....

Pride in being an Air Line Pilot is not popular right now, but you'll find it in these books...
 
Rez,

Gun control, abortion, taxation, "war on terror", and energy independance, are all valid issues. The economy is also a valid issue. We as "collective bargainers", benefit if the economy does well and if the "evil" corporations do well. If they make more, we have more to bargain for.

The single biggest reason for the "pickle" we are in now, is the Deregulation Act of 1978. Jimmy Carter is responsible for this. Who did the AFL-CIO endorse in 1976?
 
CopilotDoug said:
I'll have to disagree with you, Drew. Skywest vs Mesa. Need I say more?

Saabservant...absolutely correct my man. At least someone else gets it.
Click to expand...

You have missed my point. Maybe it's my fault for not making it clear. I was pointing out that Regional airlines who are represented by ALPA get a direct return on their money, that is, they take more money from ALPA than they pay. I don't know how to make it more clear.

I think you believe I think every ALPA represented Regional is in a better position than every non-ALPA represented Regional. This is clearly not the case. ALPA isn't the answer to every problem. Some companies are more labor friendly than others. I can't speak for every company, perhaps Skywest doesn't need representation, but the two companies I have worked for sure did, and I suspect that Mesa does too (not a real stretch).

Good lord, I almost lost a speedometer I was bidding for on eBay because of this thread. The only reason I remembered it was that my Lasagna finished cooking. Time to eat.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Rez,

Gun control, abortion, taxation, "war on terror", and energy independance, are all valid issues. The economy is also a valid issue. We as "collective bargainers", benefit if the economy does well and if the "evil" corporations do well. If they make more, we have more to bargain for.

The single biggest reason for the "pickle" we are in now, is the Deregulation Act of 1978. Jimmy Carter is responsible for this. Who did the AFL-CIO endorse in 1976?
Click to expand...

Agreed!

Protecting your career is a valid issue too......

Abortion doesn't pay the house note or put food on the table... once these needs are meet then we can address abortion, guns, gays whatever...
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
Agreed!

Protecting your career is a valid issue too......

Abortion doesn't pay the house note or put food on the table... once these needs are meet then we can address abortion, guns, gays whatever...
Click to expand...

Agreed!, protecting my career is a valid issue....... ALPA hasn't done anything to protect my career. The portfolio/whipsaw/lowest bidder concept is alive and well while ALPA gives lip service to "brand scope" and mainline pilots underbid regionals to "recapture" flying.

I am paying the house note, both of them, and putting food on the table - even at ASA.... how is ALPA going to improve my situation at ASA? Will I be able to pay those house notes if my job goes to Mesa, CHQ, or mainline for less than I currently make? Will ALPA pay those notes if I "take one for the team"?

What about those who put other issues ahead of their career?
 
JoeMerchant said:
Agreed!, protecting my career is a valid issue.......
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We interupt your regularly scheduled ALPA debate to bring you a message from the RJDC

[insert RJDC mantra here]

Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programing.....


JoeMerchant said:
What about those who put other issues ahead of their career?
Click to expand...
 

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