Alpa at Flex?

[John MClain]

It's great that the smartest guy at the company decided to answer a simple question with such a condescending tone, he'll fit right in with the IBT guys on this site.

My question still stands, how is it inevitable?

Your answers makes some very big assumptions. You take it for granted that there will even be a vote, it's not a certainty by any means. You then take it a step further that the IBT will win, again it's not even close to a given. Several of the people I know that sent in cards did so hoping for an internal union or ALPA and had no intention of voting for the IBT so cards sent in doesn't equal votes for the IBT.

Even if the IBT is voted in at FJ, does it automatically mean single carrier?



So that leaves the case where the IBT is forced to file for single carrier. In that case, I think it's a long shot that Flex pilots would vote in the IBT.

That's two cases where the outcome is unknown, not inevitable.

Sorry you chose to take my disappointment / frustration as condescension. Smartest guy at the company? Not by a long shot. I have taken the time to read, ask questions and educate myself about the very important and career changing events taking place at Flexjet.

The fact that you feel my post had very big assumptions, or that a vote will not happen and that integration is not going to take place is indicative that you STILL do not understand, or worse just choose to not accept the reality of what we are facing.

A vote will happen. Either because enough cards are sent in or the NMB is petitioned for single carrier status.

Single carrier will be implemented and that REQUIRES the integration of the seniority lists. I don't know how much simpler this can be explained.

The answer to your question is Yes. If Flexjet votes in the 1108, then yes they would immediately file for single carrier.

If the 1108 petitions prior to Flexjet voting ( highly unlikely ) that would trigger a vote for representation by the Flexjet pilots. If they voted no, the 1108 goes away along with the CBA and integration of the 2 lists begins with the 1108 negotiating for Option pilots and DAC management deciding for the Flex pilots.

Correction, the FlightOptions part of the 1108 would cease and now TMC would takeover the running of the 1108.

 

[Frac Cap]

I can't say it any better than Fresh Air. The weak and uninformed will believe anything they are told by someone in authority, no matter how wrong it is. When you want to affect the outcome of a vote, and if perception is reality in managements mind, then they will tell you any lie to steer you to vote the way they want you to vote.

KR has been saying over a year that he wants to integrate the seniority list. Now that some are saying they don't want an integrated list, he is telling them what they want to hear even if it is wrong and not part of his long term plan. It makes no sense operationally to integrate all aspects of the two companies but to keep just this one area separated. It is impractical for a company to not take advantage of the cost savings that one side can save for the other by doing a trip where a plane is already at that location and not having to repo another aircraft in?

 

[doh]

Please explain, in detail, how/why integration is inevitable.

The number one reason integration is inevitable: Ricci wants it! Ignore RH because what he wants is not important to Ricci. Ricci's first choice is to put his hand picked, "loyal" pilots in the spots he wants them in. There is no legal reason he has to enforce a seniority list. Bombardier voluntarily supported the list, but only the union forces Ricci to enforce the list. He is more than happy to place his hand picked pilots anywhere on the list you want. He simply says from here on out you have to interview for all captain positions, and he places his guys on the planes he wants. That is in his book. Better pay, benefits and perks for the 20% or so he deems loyal. The rest of us get lower compensation and the leftover seats. Read his book. And remember, his first announcement of Red Label was interview for position. If you believe he will not go right back to that without a union, then you are naive. Read his book. It talks about the small percentage of loyal employees versus the rest of the pack. Remember the first presentation he gave? He referred to his book, indicating you could find out his philosophy by reading it, so he hasn't changed his mind about the things in that book. They are radically different than RH and co. are selling.
The second reason integration is inevitable is the Flight Options pilots will file for single carrier at some point in time. That triggers a legal requirement to integrate in a "fair and equitable" manner. Would you consider it fair if you were placed below someone with ten years less seniority? An arbitrator won't think so either.
Those are really the two reasons why integration is inevitable. I can't explain it any simpler than that.

 

[albatros101]

It's disappointing that 1 month into the union drive there are still those who don't understand what's happening. Here is the how/why integration IS inevitable;

When the union is voted in at Flexjet, single carrier status will be implemented. This by federal law requires integration of the seniority lists. In the unlikely event the union is not voted in, then things will continue as is with DAC management allowing Option pilots to transfer to Flexjet and proceed with their plan to slowly siphon off all new business and airplanes from Options. Eventually leaving what's left to whither on the vine and die. The only problem with that scenario and it's something that DAC management is routinely not telling you is that as soon as FlightOptions starts to shrink, the 1108 will immediately file for single carrier status regardless of whether it thinks the Flex pilots will vote yes.

The 1108 WILL NOT sacrifice the 300 or so pilots of FlightOptions. Integration will again be a legal requirement and WILL happen. FlightOptions pilots will still have the union negotiating on their behalf however and Flexjet will have God knows who negotiating the integration for us, provided we are dumb enough to vote no. If we do vote no, then we are all one big unhappy integrated family with no union, no CBA and will be AT WILL employees of Kenn Ricci.

God help us all if that happens.

C'mon Fellow Flexjet pilots, get educated about this stuff, make the smart choice and send in your card.

This is my point as well, the choice is; Lets call it the "them vs us " mentality on both sides.

1108 "the good guys" with KR the "bad guy" or
KR "the good guy" with 1108 the "bad guys"

At my previous airline the integration was "fair" but some guys got down graded and "junior" guys upgraded, the reason being the "integration quotas" and the realignment of crews and aircraft.

Everybody stayed in their seats for about 3 to 4 months, then came the first displacement and shortly after a new vacancy and their goes the "fair" integration.

Sadly the truth is lost some where in the middle.

 

[luckydog]

I'm just looking for some bit of real documentation that states a determination of single carrier automatically means a list integration.

I've found a couple of documents that specially state that the integration step follows the representation vote but these are not from an official NMB or NRLA site.

This makes me wonder what would happen if no union is selected after single carrier is established? And since McCaskill Bond is now law, does it apply if the two parties are not represented?

Since I'm not yet educated, maybe you can just show us all where this information is spelled out and save me from my own ignorance.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

What does your place on the seniority list even matter without a CBA? If Uncle had his way, we would be back to the days of his SFO program.

 

[shanes123]

GC has it exactly right..Who cares how anything is merged without a CBA KR will do whatever he wants anyway..GLOBAL PROGRAM!!!! Seniority means nothing to him. He will give you the list with your name on it but it won't mean ******************** when it comes time for vacations, upgrades, bidding...Hasnt he proved that with the Red Label program and the Globals

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

******************** when it comes time for vacations? I forgot about that one. I was maxed out and couldn't get any vaca days and was basically working for free.

 

[el raton]

Let it happen in its own time. You guys do more to dissuade those who are on the fence.

 

[doh]

Luckydog, here it is: http://us.practicallaw.com/6-514-5448?q=&qp=&qo=&qe=

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Let it happen in its own time. You guys do more to dissuade those who are on the fence.

So be it. If these guys haven't seen the train wreck about to happen by now , they never will. I hope they will not bring everyone down to their level.

 

[luckydog]

Luckydog, here it is: http://us.practicallaw.com/6-514-5448?q=&qp=&qo=&qe=

I'm familiar with the link. The case has some similarities to the DAC/FJ/FO situation, but I'm sure it can be argued that it is dissimilar enough not to be a factor. The lawyers will work it out.

It thought the ironic aspect of the case was that it was an IBT affiliate trying to do a staple integration to another IBT represented work force. They were the ones trying to argue that McCaskill-Bond didn't apply.

 

[doh]

Since IBT does not have a unified merger policy, it was possible to end up in exactly this situation. Now the court has set precedent, closing the doors will not put them in a staple situation.

 

[SDCFI]

Luckydog, here it is: http://us.practicallaw.com/6-514-5448?q=&qp=&qo=&qe=

I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a HIE last night but I don't see how that case applies to us. First off Flexjet did not acquire FO, and they are not shutting down FO or combining the operations on one cert (which I think was the original plan). Also no FO pilots have been or are being furloughed. The question is: what is the legal precedent that requires a seniority list merger in the case that single carrier is determined and the vote goes non-union? You would still have two separate pilot groups on separate op certs with separate dispatch/maint/ops. If it was that easy why haven't regionals like Envoy that is wholly owned by AAG filed and forced a seniority merger with AA? You can't get any more single carrier than that relationship.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a HIE last night but I don't see how that case applies to us. First off Flexjet did not acquire FO, and they are not shutting down FO or combining the operations on one cert (which I think was the original plan). Also no FO pilots have been or are being furloughed. The question is: what is the legal precedent that requires a seniority list merger in the case that single carrier is determined and the vote goes non-union? You would still have two separate pilot groups on separate op certs with separate dispatch/maint/ops. If it was that easy why haven't regionals like Envoy that is wholly owned by AAG filed and forced a seniority merger with AA? You can't get any more single carrier than that relationship.

The question is be whether or not they actually maintain separate ops and dispatch (Like Envoy and AA) or whether they are merging it all. I think what's been stated on this and other threads is that has all but been done with the exception of the pilot lists and a final move of ops to Ohio. I believe its the OneSky vision at issue including FBOs and charters in the mix.

BTW, ran into a FLOPS crew the other day who told me they are crewing (and flying in their paint) exclusive FX contracts for metal FX doesn't even own. So it sounds to me like there is a way to get more single carrier than the AA situation. If true, that will be the wasp that bites the Flex guys in the a$$ and they'll be soon praying they had a union yesterday.

I no longer have a pony in the race but I am very curious to see how this all turns out. I certainly don't miss the blind eyed koolaid drinkers who will never see what is plainly before their eyes, a special blend reserved just for the blue bellied bunch. How ironically apropos they chose to be be identified that way. I'd say I hope they enjoy the kick in the balls that's served on the side but found in my years there very few had any.

 

[luckydog]

BTW, ran into a FLOPS crew the other day who told me they are crewing (and flying in their paint) exclusive FX contracts for metal FX doesn't even own.

That's been going on for a few months now. I have no idea what the owner contract on that deal would look like.

A few owners might be fooled but enough will see the bait & switch that it won't be the end of the world. Its a Flight Options aircraft being flown by Flight Options crews with an FX tail number. As long as the 135 brief includes the 'Operated by Flight Options LLC' its all legal. Flexjet could fly FJ aircraft with FLOPS tail numbers also, but why would anyone do that...

 

[warlord19]

AAh PG, another aviation genius and morals arbitrator who has all the answers and not a clue. Wished the world had a few more hi-fallutin idiots like you.
WL

 

[SDCFI]

That's been going on for a few months now. I have no idea what the owner contract on that deal would look like.

A few owners might be fooled but enough will see the bait & switch that it won't be the end of the world. Its a Flight Options aircraft being flown by Flight Options crews with an FX tail number. As long as the 135 brief includes the 'Operated by Flight Options LLC' its all legal. Flexjet could fly FJ aircraft with FLOPS tail numbers also, but why would anyone do that...

This is FI.com so obviously take this with a grain, or a pound, of salt but I was told by someone who flew a Flexjet owner that had bought into a P300 that there were two contracts. One with FO through I believe 2016 and then Flexjet after that. Does that amount to a hill of beans? No clue but that's what I heard.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

AAh PG, another aviation genius and morals arbitrator who has all the answers and not a clue. Wished the world had a few more hi-fallutin idiots like you.
WL

Aaahhhh, my old nemesis warlord I haven't missed you.

But the fact is, if I were wrong or off base you wouldn't even take the time to try and obfuscate.

The time for a flexjet union was yesterday. It's actually too late. They are f'd beyond belief for taking more than 2 days after that chicklet toothed carpetbagger bought them out. They didn't even apparently read his book or pay attention to history. Ricci's a taker not creator. Effing idiot kool-aid drinkers. If I didn't know so many great guys there I'd almost feel vindicated.

 

[warlord19]

Peter, Peter, for a fool with no supposedly no horse in the race, you certainly have a load of horse sh*t to sell. Your certainly entitled to your "informed" opinion....however, it appears the FPOC will not even participate in an open forum discussion of the merits of joining the IBT. And your apparent visceral hatred of KR and everything non-union reveals your empty soul.
Cheers

 

[Peter_Griffin]

Peter, Peter, for a fool with no supposedly no horse in the race, you certainly have a load of horse sh*t to sell. Your certainly entitled to your "informed" opinion....however, it appears the FPOC will not even participate in an open forum discussion of the merits of joining the IBT. And your apparent visceral hatred of KR and everything non-union reveals your empty soul.
Cheers

Well this is probably the only place you and I will ever agree. If that is indeed true that they will not participate in a forum then they are dumber than dirt.

I have no personal let alone visceral hatred of KR. I believe that's reserved for the people he's screwed and that list is long. You are correct however that I do have disdain for all things non union in aviation. I've seen to many times the great disadvantages to the pilot group that results, especially over the long haul.

But you've always enjoyed fellating the egos of upper management mistaking yourself as one of the in group. Here's a shocker: you are as equally on the chopping block as those you've helped put there. You are nothing to them. But here at least you have a little variety this time and I hear your people like variety.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

That's been going on for a few months now. I have no idea what the owner contract on that deal would look like.

A few owners might be fooled but enough will see the bait & switch that it won't be the end of the world. Its a Flight Options aircraft being flown by Flight Options crews with an FX tail number. As long as the 135 brief includes the 'Operated by Flight Options LLC' its all legal. Flexjet could fly FJ aircraft with FLOPS tail numbers also, but why would anyone do that...

You're missing the point lucky. If that's not management setting up for single carrier I don't know what is. Looks to me your lists will be merged whether you like it or not and since FLOP is the only party unionized the advantage in that matter will go to them.

Why do you people refuse to see the plain and simple when it is laid out for you like a road map?

 

[Dirty Squirrel]

This is FI.com so obviously take this with a grain, or a pound, of salt but I was told by someone who flew a Flexjet owner that had bought into a P300 that there were two contracts. One with FO through I believe 2016 and then Flexjet after that. Does that amount to a hill of beans? No clue but that's what I heard.

Truth. Straight out of the Flexjet sales department from a sales guy who used to work for Options.

 

[luckydog]

You're missing the point lucky. If that's not management setting up for single carrier I don't know what is. Looks to me your lists will be merged whether you like it or not and since FLOP is the only party unionized the advantage in that matter will go to them.

Why do you people refuse to see the plain and simple when it is laid out for you like a road map?

No, I see the point. I see it very clearly.

KR has said he doesn't want a union at FJ but his every action brings the prospect of a vote closer.

He said he wanted the lists merged but then changed his mind. I'm sure he knows there will be an integration, just as I'm absolutely sure there will be an integration.

I'm also absolutely sure the integration will be "fair and equitable" but as the FJ owners flee the program, the fences will be jumped as the new OneSky becomes the old Flight Options in all it's glory. The dumbing down of FJ and dilution of it's culture will lead to an exodus of owners and be the downfall of a pretty OK place to work.

All this sounds like arguing who gets to be the captain of the Titanic as it takes on water.

 

[doh]

I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a HIE last night but I don't see how that case applies to us. First off Flexjet did not acquire FO, and they are not shutting down FO or combining the operations on one cert (which I think was the original plan). Also no FO pilots have been or are being furloughed. The question is: what is the legal precedent that requires a seniority list merger in the case that single carrier is determined and the vote goes non-union? You would still have two separate pilot groups on separate op certs with separate dispatch/maint/ops. If it was that easy why haven't regionals like Envoy that is wholly owned by AAG filed and forced a seniority merger with AA? You can't get any more single carrier than that relationship.

AA and Eagle maintained separate Presidents, VP Flt Ops, DOs, etc. AA took a "hands off" approach to Eagle operations. We have the same managers for both groups. For example, Mike Silvestro is in charge of both pilot groups. AA always said they would run separate ops at Eagle. Ricci has said at every opportunity he wants combined ops. That is the difference. And it is never one airline buying another airline. Go reread the ruling. It is a parent company buying an airline and owning another airline already.

 

[doh]

Peter, Peter, for a fool with no supposedly no horse in the race, you certainly have a load of horse sh*t to sell. Your certainly entitled to your "informed" opinion....however, it appears the FPOC will not even participate in an open forum discussion of the merits of joining the IBT. And your apparent visceral hatred of KR and everything non-union reveals your empty soul.
Cheers

I wish I could tag Peter Griffin here too. I would leap at the chance to participate in an Open Forum. What is being proposed by management is a CLOSED FORUM!!! They want to stage this dog and pony show at a venue where they have exclusive control over who will be admitted, thus giving them exclusive control over the questions asked. That allows them to have canned, polished, prepared answer, while at the same time handing us a set of "gotchas". I will not show up for anything like that. Open forum, where all parties may attend, or no thanks. The Teamsters, by the way, are not the third party. The third party is the labor law firm management is using to run their anti union campaign. The Teamsters are the fourth party that we chose because they are the ONLY ones that represent fractional airlines. There is no other union, despite the ramblings of management to the contrary.

 

[doh]

Hmmm, silence. Reveal BS for what it is and the rats scatter back to their dark holes.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

I wish I could tag Peter Griffin here too. I would leap at the chance to participate in an Open Forum. What is being proposed by management is a CLOSED FORUM!!! They want to stage this dog and pony show at a venue where they have exclusive control over who will be admitted, thus giving them exclusive control over the questions asked. That allows them to have canned, polished, prepared answer, while at the same time handing us a set of "gotchas". I will not show up for anything like that. Open forum, where all parties may attend, or no thanks. The Teamsters, by the way, are not the third party. The third party is the labor law firm management is using to run their anti union campaign. The Teamsters are the fourth party that we chose because they are the ONLY ones that represent fractional airlines. There is no other union, despite the ramblings of management to the contrary.

Well now that's a completely different story than the one that was presented. I'm glad to hear you would jump at the chance to meet. The only group that should avoid it is the one with something to hide and why I made the dumber than dirt comment since it might just be the only forum in which you can trap KR and his long list of lies, half truths and honest feeling about his employees. You would be quite stupid to not want that. Thanks for straightening that up.

But now that we know the true story, let me guess: you've offered to meet on level playing ground several times but the rules keep changing. You agree to all the negotiable terms and then they change again. It's FUD 101.

How interesting that Warlord19 knew to come back at just the right time with just enough inside information to steer the conversation. HMMMMMMM... And lucky for them he is too stupid to see they are using him. There's always a few dumb (or greedy) ones they can count on to do they're bidding. Also FUD 101.

More FUD 101. Let me also guess he is using management picked cronies (like warlord) on here, bluebelly and perhaps even the union site to direct the weak among you into believing there is little support for a union or that you have picked the wrong union. I bet there's also quite a few accusations that the organizing group is destroying the camaraderie among pilots and that only losers support the drive effort.

Yep, all bush league stuff. Tighten up your bootstraps. As you get closer to the goal it gets nastier. But just remember the nastier it gets, the more you are winning.

You only have two fighting for their jobs right now. Expect to double or triple that when they think you are close to submitting for a vote. It's their last ditch effort, make people fear for their jobs.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Latest update is that there are 5 hostages now. If you think any Flex pilot can avoid being the next target of KR by just doing your job and following the rules, you are mistaken. The new standard is "you will carry the write ups".

 

[doh]

Peter, you must be psychic! Or just familiar with management tactics...