ALPA and SkyWest

[PCL_128]

ALPA is keeping track of who has left that turned in cards. Those aren't counted in the totals. Trust me, it's a lot more than a "couple of hundred" supporters.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

.........

 

[Nightrain_080]

cha ching

This is way I see it. There is very little internal support for ALPA. Sure there is the 35 or 40 guys, and gals, on the OC and another couple of hundred supporters, but thats about it. Most of the push is coming from the outside, and obviously, those people can't vote. There just aren't that many pissed off-fire in the belly, type of people at Skywest.

A lot of the people who wanted the union and sent in the original cards have moved on. The UA guys have gone, or are going to get recalled, also a lot of people have left for Continental, Alaska, Southwest, etc.

Barring any major, in your face, screw ups by the company, I don't see more than about 450-500 votes. People here just aren't pissed off!

The top 1/3rd lifers may not be pissed off because they aren't going anywhere. (SAD) I would say the middle 3rd and part of the bottom 3rd are going to continue to be pissed off, sick and tired of the current trend. IF SAPA would have bended instead of broke into a million peices over that GAY BHO raise, then we might have had a chance of some real improvements.

ALPO may not be the best but it is better than the current excrement we have.

 

[FlyingToIST]

by the way close does not =20YEARS

We Strive To Be:
The Airline of Choice
The Employer of Choice
The Investment of Choice

Our Guiding Principles:

Personal and Operational Reliability
Fairness and Consistency

This obviously means nothing to you.

What a hogwash.. SAPA is not going to side with you no matter what. I quit that airline when one of the training captains was yelling profanities in the sim. Don't even get me started on people picking on my name , saying sh!t like 'what happened to names like John or Steve" .. oh yeah i am a freaking foreigner of course.. What do i have to say about it?
On the other hand a 'professional pilot' who was wagging his tool was being procted by management because they go to the same church..

 

[bmpilot2003]

What a hogwash.. SAPA is not going to side with you no matter what. I quit that airline when one of the training captains was yelling profanities in the sim. Don't even get me started on people picking on my name , saying sh!t like 'what happened to names like John or Steve" .. oh yeah i am a freaking foreigner of course.. What do i have to say about it?
On the other hand a 'professional pilot' who was wagging his tool was being procted by management because they go to the same church..

You shouldnt have let the training captain wash you out like that. There is a small number of instructors like GB at every airline. They try and wash out as many new hires as they can.

 

[FlyingToIST]

BM,
i was able to handle it for 2 days.. this was on top of the ground school experience from JG.. i guess they won at the end.. oh well..and yes it was GB..

 

[bmpilot2003]

BM,
i was able to handle it for 2 days.. this was on top of the ground school experience from JG.. i guess they won at the end.. oh well..and yes it was GB..

I feel your pain, there souldnt be people like that allowed to work in the sim. What did JG do?

 

[SSDD]

The top 1/3rd lifers may not be pissed off because they aren't going anywhere. (SAD) I would say the middle 3rd and part of the bottom 3rd are going to continue to be pissed off, sick and tired of the current trend. IF SAPA would have bended instead of broke into a million peices over that GAY BHO raise, then we might have had a chance of some real improvements.

ALPO may not be the best but it is better than the current excrement we have.

If your assessment of the pilot group were correct that would have translated to about 70% of the pilots. But reality doesn't bare that out. The top 1/3 of the pilots, because they are "lifers", as a whole, are more supportive of the union drive than the rest of the group. If you were right, there would not have been any problem getting 60-70% of the cards sent in. So the bottom guys may be "upset", but they are not PISSED OFF. Their feelings do not translate into action.

 

[pookie]

I also had similar experiences at the training department. I had an instructor tell me about affirmative action and how people like me were here for only one reason. I always thought skywest was a professional organization until i went through their training department. When i was at Flight Safety at their break room, i overheard one instructor talking about how one religious group should not be hired for security reasons. Its okay to have opinions but you dont have to share it while newhires are going through training and subject them to their political opinions. It should always stay professional and there is a time and place for ALL conversations but i didnt think it was very appropriate during new hire training. I have left skywest but if i were there, i would definitely vote for the union.

 

[ERJFO]

Shouldn't pages 2 and 11 of this :http://www.skywestalpa.org/documents/SkyWest.ALPA.Update.1206.speced.pdf
be enough?

 

[ArcticFlier]

I'm not nearly a 20 year captain but close, and most are of the same way, no thankyou ALPA. Wev'e been through so many drives and after the fact most if not all are happy with what we have.

ALPA is going to have to come up with a substantial performance package and history to push the majority to make this happen. What ahppened 30 years ago is not relevent.

Almost 16 years here...................please don't attempt to speak for me. What happened thirty years ago is relevant................but not as relevant as what has happened lately..................bucket system, DH JM pay thingy, etc., etc..



AF

 

[ArcticFlier]

I feel your pain, there souldnt be people like that allowed to work in the sim. What did JG do?

JG? I can think of a couple, but none in the training department.


Hmmmmmmm.......I'll have to put my thinking cap on.


AF

 

[mavdog]

Shouldn't pages 2 and 11 of this :http://www.skywestalpa.org/documents/SkyWest.ALPA.Update.1206.speced.pdf
be enough?

So do those numbers include the 2% paycut you take after voting ALPA in?? To me, and I'm in no position to vote either way, ALPA would have to make a pretty strong case to the pilots that they would get at least a 4% pay raise in negotiations. I myself don't see that happening. Maybe if ALPA knocks one out of the park for the ASA pilots... we'll see.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Problems in the training dept.? True representation, whether it is ALPA, IBT or what have you....can help.....

 

[HelloNewman]

I was always told if isn't broke don't fix it. Going ALPA would just even the playing field for the have-not regionals. They know we hold an unfair advantage over them by not having a union. Thanks for the rhetoric. Get back to us when a vote is actually in place. Until then, I'll just consider it a worn out scare tatic.

I have to agree with that! We have a huge advantage here. We are able to wait and see what the market can bear before we take too big of a raise. Getting a 2001 Comair style contract does not help if your going down the tubes just a few years later. This drive is really nothing but a big bore. Just a bunch of people telling you what you need instead of letting you think for yourself.

 

[HelloNewman]

The jB guys are calling ALPA. VA exist on paper.

non union... it seems to me most places are unionized. care to address the Southwest factor? I asked you already but you didn't reply... or did I miss it?

Yea Southwest is doing well and they have an in house union NOT ALPA. I believe they continue to thrive because they are not getting crap advice from ALPA. ALPA tends to poison every company culture. Southwests unions actually work with the company not against it. Most places are unionized, being non union gives us an excellent advantage. Management always has to keep us just happy enough to keep the union away. I wouldn't be opposed to an in-house union as long as certain angry people who will remain un-named have absolutely nothing to do with it. This drive has been going on since mid 2005 and is going no where fast. A lot of people I talk to sent in their card but don't plan on voting for it.

Have you read Flying the Line Vol I and II? yes or no? (that goes for you too Newman)


What will happen in 5-10 years in relevent. Will you be prepared?

While I am sure that book means well it is also a biased book. It was written by an ALPA guy I believe so its obviously biased toward the union view.

 

[jayme]

I have to agree with that! We have a huge advantage here. We are able to wait and see what the market can bear before we take too big of a raise. Getting a 2001 Comair style contract does not help if your going down the tubes just a few years later. This drive is really nothing but a big bore. Just a bunch of people telling you what you need instead of letting you think for yourself.

You mean SkyWest management has a huge advantage, right? I don't see how having our leg cancellation policy unilaterally changed is an advantage to the pilots, do you?

I don't see how implementing the bucket system is an advantage to the pilots. Senior reserve pilots used to be able to decide if they wanted to fly lots and try to break guarantee they would go on "call first". If they wanted to spend time with their family or work on a project at home they would be called in seniority order. Now almost NOBODY breaks guarantee and NOBODY can expect to stay home with the kids.

How about PBS? Is that an advantage? I actually have been treated pretty well, but others have had flying forced onto their schedule even though they were senior enough to hold those days off. In the past, those pilots could have chosen to pick up that flying at time-and-a-half. Not anymore. We also get screwed on vacation under PBS. We now need to use more vacation hours to get the same number of days vacation under the old system. The system can be fixed by increasing the accrual rate. Do you think SAPA will get that for us?

I wish management wanted to please us as much as you want to please them.

 

[sweptback]

You mean SkyWest management has a huge advantage, right? I don't see how having our leg cancellation policy unilaterally changed is an advantage to the pilots, do you?

How was your cancellation policy changed?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

You mean SkyWest management has a huge advantage, right? I don't see how having our leg cancellation policy unilaterally changed is an advantage to the pilots, do you?

I don't see how implementing the bucket system is an advantage to the pilots. Senior reserve pilots used to be able to decide if they wanted to fly lots and try to break guarantee they would go on "call first". If they wanted to spend time with their family or work on a project at home they would be called in seniority order. Now almost NOBODY breaks guarantee and NOBODY can expect to stay home with the kids.

How about PBS? Is that an advantage? I actually have been treated pretty well, but others have had flying forced onto their schedule even though they were senior enough to hold those days off. In the past, those pilots could have chosen to pick up that flying at time-and-a-half. Not anymore. We also get screwed on vacation under PBS. We now need to use more vacation hours to get the same number of days vacation under the old system. The system can be fixed by increasing the accrual rate. Do you think SAPA will get that for us?

I wish management wanted to please us as much as you want to please them.

If newwoman doesn't respond right away, please give her a minute(it's hard to type while she's grabbing her ankles)!

 

[bmpilot2003]

I have to agree with that! We have a huge advantage here. We are able to wait and see what the market can bear before we take too big of a raise. Getting a 2001 Comair style contract does not help if your going down the tubes just a few years later. This drive is really nothing but a big bore. Just a bunch of people telling you what you need instead of letting you think for yourself.

Nobody i know that supports a Union is asking for a Comair style contract. The main reason is to stop the slide of QOL/ work rules. If you can sit here and tell me that those issues havent gone south lately, you really need to take off the kool aid goggles.

 

[PCL_128]

Yea Southwest is doing well and they have an in house union NOT ALPA. I believe they continue to thrive because they are not getting crap advice from ALPA. ALPA tends to poison every company culture.

ALPA does no such thing. It is the company managements, not ALPA, that create the adversarial relationships. Take a look at ExpressJet. One of the leading ALPA small-jet carriers, their pilots have the highest W2 earnings in the industry, and they have a superb relationship with management. ALPA doesn't poison any relationships. We want to get along with management. Unfortunately, the feeling isn't usually mutual.

While I am sure that book means well it is also a biased book. It was written by an ALPA guy I believe so its obviously biased toward the union view.

It is not. The books were written by a college professor named George Hopkins. He had absolutely no connection to ALPA or the industry. The books were a completely non-biased view of the Association's history. You would do well to read them and become educated. Better yet, come out to the next event that ALPA organizes in your domicile for the organizing drive and we'll give you free copies of both books along with a free dinner. You game, or do you just want to hide behind a screen name forever?

 

[bmpilot2003]

JG? I can think of a couple, but none in the training department.


Hmmmmmmm.......I'll have to put my thinking cap on.


AF

He works in the classroom on the EMB. I actually thought he was pretty good instructor. Apparently someone didnt think so though.

 

[bmpilot2003]

ALPA does no such thing. It is the company managements, not ALPA, that create the adversarial relationships. Take a look at ExpressJet. One of the leading ALPA small-jet carriers, their pilots have the highest W2 earnings in the industry, and they have a superb relationship with management. ALPA doesn't poison any relationships. We want to get along with management. Unfortunately, the feeling isn't usually mutual.



It is not. The books were written by a college professor named George Hopkins. He had absolutely no connection to ALPA or the industry. The books were a completely non-biased view of the Association's history. You would do well to read them and become educated. Better yet, come out to the next event that ALPA organizes in your domicile for the organizing drive and we'll give you free copies of both books along with a free dinner. You game, or do you just want to hide behind a screen name forever?

Newman you continue to prove to everyone how uniformed you really are.

 

[jayme]

How was your cancellation policy changed?

A stiff margarita and a couple glasses of wine down, but here goes...

In the past, we have been guaranteed to be paid for what we bid, plus any extra that cropped up.

If the trip you bid is cos-lax-oak, you WILL get paid for that at a minimum. So if you end up diverting to sjc instead of continuing to oak, tthen later make it into oak, you get paid cos-lax-oak PLUS sjc-oak.

New rules: you get paid cos-lax-sjc-oak.

In this example, it's not a big difference because sjc is in the line between lax and oak. Most situations would be a lot worse.

Here's the problem: we LOST WORK RULES. And for what? Did we get something in return? HELL NO!

 

[BoilerUP]

I have to agree with that! We have a huge advantage here. We are able to wait and see what the market can bear before we take too big of a raise. Getting a 2001 Comair style contract does not help if your going down the tubes just a few years later. This drive is really nothing but a big bore. Just a bunch of people telling you what you need instead of letting you think for yourself.

Once again, you flaunt your willingness to ride on the coattails of ALPA (and IBT747) represented pilot groups in their contract negotiations but not willing to do any of the fighting yourself. Why aren't YOU willing to bear some of the burden of lifting the rest of the industry up like ACA, Comair and Air Wisconsin did in 2001?

There are a few people on the line here at AWAC saying we should fly 70s at our 50 seat rate if that would get us growth. Now where in the world would they have ever gotten that idea???

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

CFIT...have you read Flying the Line?

 

[SkyNation]

Take a look at ExpressJet. One of the leading ALPA small-jet carriers, their pilots have the highest W2 earnings in the industry, and they have a superb relationship with management.

not according to the 4 friends I have there. I make more and they are all envious of what we have at SkyWest. they better us in some areas, but overall they all agree that we win out. flame all you want, this is just the input I've gotten from people I personally know there.

 

[PCL_128]

not according to the 4 friends I have there. I make more and they are all envious of what we have at SkyWest. they better us in some areas, but overall they all agree that we win out. flame all you want, this is just the input I've gotten from people I personally know there.

Your anecdotal observations aren't exactly a scientific analysis. ALPA's Economics & Financial Analysis Department (so well respected in the industry that even airline managements purchase their services to do costing analysis) has done thorough research on this and determine that ExpressJet is #1 by just a slight margin over Comair. I can't remember where Skywest was, but it certainly wasn't in the top two. You earn more than your friends because you've admitted that you fly nearly 1000 hours a year. I doubt they do anything close to that.

 

[SkyNation]

Your anecdotal observations aren't exactly a scientific analysis. ALPA's Economics & Financial Analysis Department (so well respected in the industry that even airline managements purchase their services to do costing analysis) has done thorough research on this and determine that ExpressJet is #1 by just a slight margin over Comair. I can't remember where Skywest was, but it certainly wasn't in the top two. You earn more than your friends because you've admitted that you fly nearly 1000 hours a year. I doubt they do anything close to that.

you're right, these are only my conversations with them. they don't pick up as much extra work as I do, but they've all told me that even if they did they wouldn't earn what I do. they say that it is not that easy, and comparing our QOL mine is always regarded as the best. this probably has to do with bases, stability, and future outlook as well as compensation.

Using two carriers that are losing airplanes and flying doesn't entice me to come over to the club. can you imagine an airline that doesn't need ALPA, or do you assert that it is automatic, that you MUST have it? why or why not?

 

[PCL_128]

Using two carriers that are losing airplanes and flying doesn't entice me to come over to the club.

ExpressJet hasn't lost anything. They're still flying the same number of planes, and they just got a contract extension that included a big raise and new charter work-rules. That's two big pay raises they've gotten in the amount of time that Skywest was supposed to have given you a higher 70-seat rate.

can you imagine an airline that doesn't need ALPA, or do you assert that it is automatic, that you MUST have it? why or why not?

No one must do anything, but it is certainly preferable and smart. The profession needs be a cohesive group that works together to raise our standard of living. As disparate groups, we'll never get anywhere.

Also, as I've said many times in the past, just because you have it good now doesn't mean that that will continue. All it takes is a swipe of the pin for Jerry to destroy your pay and quality of life. Things can change very quickly for you without protection. Union representation is always the smart move. It would be nice if we lived in a world where that wasn't true, but that's simply not the world we live in, or will ever live in.