ALPA and SkyWest

[Rekks Inbound]

SkyNation,
By continuing to keep that link up, a link to a website that is factually incorrect and distorts the truth, is what has my ire. I agree that we live in a country where we are allowed to have our own opinions and beliefs. What angers me is ANY individual who makes up their mind based on either incomplete information and tries to pass it off as fact, or worse INCORRECT information and tries to do the same. I consider it no different than somebody who gets all of thier news info from Rush Limbaugh (or Al Franken, to be fair), and considers that to be the gospel truth. And if you wish to do that, then that is fine. As you say, that is your right. I will continue to call you out on it, as is MY right.

If you truly do not want ALPA, or any other union for that matter, fine. None of them are perfect. But base that decision on fact, not what some idiot with an agenda says about something, especially when there are mountains of evidence, from many reliable sources, that refutes what that website says.
In other words, base your opinion on truth, not lies and spin. And check your sources.

Peace.

Rekks.

 

[SkyNation]

who says I based my opinion on that site? I found that just a few days ago.

there, I've added to it. feel better?

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Because every arguement you have stated on the forum comes from that website. Just because I am a union member (and proud of it) doesn't mean I can't check it out either.

I used to think like you. What do I need a union for? That's MY 2% (1.95% actually) and I want to keep it. If the company doesn't grow, then I don't have a job. Etc, etc, etc...

After I got to my second 135 job, I realized what a union would do for me, and what those dues benefitted. The company I worked for would 'pilot push' like you would not believe. You were expected to get a free jumpseat to work, wherever in the country they wanted you to go (NOT what the jumpseat is for). And I was fired from that company, for something that I wasn't even in the state at the time for.

That, among other things, is what a union is for.

Peace.

Rekks.

PS to those like our lost friend D'Angelo who believe that you could hire your own lawyer in a wrongful termination suit like what I had, the legal fees would have been over three times my annual salary at the time. Not something that is easily affordable. Oh, and most lawyers will NOT take it on a contingency.

 

[SkyNation]

Rekks,

I have only perused that site, so I don't know how my opinions have been affected by it.

I was at an ALPA regional. I saw the antiquated attitude of 'not my problem' when it came to financial hard times for the company, with most pilots responding with some version of 'I'll walk before I give up 1 red cent.' I rarely saw an attitude of 'what can we do as a pilot group to assure that this company will remain strong now and for the future?' if you did have this attitude, you were in the minority, and probably unimpressed with the union as I was.

the 'bad things' that can happen happen everywhere, that's life. I believe we are given a fair shake here, despite what all the anti-company types on here claim. ask them about DD, who will probably win a large settlement and be able to retire early. he was treated wrongly, got an attorney, and in my estimation will gain a huge settlement. all without the supposed 'protection' of ALPA. Ask 100 SkyWest guys who've been here more than 10 years, and I'd bet 90% of them will tell you more stories about people who could have easily been booted, but the company worked with them and either got them their job back or got them through it. These are the stories I hear.

I don't claim SkyWest is perfect, just as no company, individual or organization is perfect. I regard it like the US compared to the World-by no means perfect, but it provides the best among the rest.

Your opinion may differ.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

on the other thread.. you have questions that request your attention...

 

[SkyNation]

on the other thread.. you have questions that request your attention...

we've been over this and over this. I'll respect your position, I think I've heard it.

best,
an ALPA refugee

 

[bmpilot2003]

I am not questioning his abilities and knowledge. I actually liked the training we got. But on the other hand, he needs to know that 'I wish we had people with names like John, Steve' is not the approach of the 21st century. I was put on the spot and humiliated by him in the middle of class several times.
It's all behind me know..
I met so many good people in that airline. I think the pilot group is great but few of them are spoiling it for the all.
I still think that the airline is not a friendly place for people with a certain religion and it's favoring another one despite some despicable actions by another new hire..

I completely agree with you, its no secret that more than a few people in charge favor one religion over others. Just one more reason to have a union.

 

[PCL_128]

why do you care? people can read it and make up their own mind, right?

No, that site isn't a legitimate source of information. It spreads lies and distortions, not just an opposing point of view. I can respect a different point of view, but I can't respect a different point of view that is only based on lies and misinformation. If Mr. Berman (the creator of that disgusting website) wants to argue the anti-union point of view, then he needs to do it with facts, not lies. Having that website in your signature does not help your credibility at all.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

They are elected officals. We voted them in and we can vote them out. They are in place to make decisions on behalf of the pilot group. I hope you don't have any illusions about unions because they work in a similar fashion. ALPA MEC's can vote on MOU's without imput from the pilot group. In fact, TSA had a contract SIGNED by the MEC without the DIRECT vote of the pilot group. I'm not a fan of SAPA but that is the truth about how they work. Sorry you can't use this to bash the hard working VOLUNTEERS. Granted they have plenty of other faults that you can.

You mean the hardworking "volunteers" some of which have a 105 hour guarantee and don't fly the line, or the VOLUNTEERS who go to all the meetings and get their line flying covered and paid while they attend?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Rekks,

I have only perused that site, so I don't know how my opinions have been affected by it.

I was at an ALPA regional. I saw the antiquated attitude of 'not my problem' when it came to financial hard times for the company, with most pilots responding with some version of 'I'll walk before I give up 1 red cent.' I rarely saw an attitude of 'what can we do as a pilot group to assure that this company will remain strong now and for the future?' if you did have this attitude, you were in the minority, and probably unimpressed with the union as I was.

the 'bad things' that can happen happen everywhere, that's life. I believe we are given a fair shake here, despite what all the anti-company types on here claim. ask them about DD, who will probably win a large settlement and be able to retire early. he was treated wrongly, got an attorney, and in my estimation will gain a huge settlement. all without the supposed 'protection' of ALPA. Ask 100 SkyWest guys who've been here more than 10 years, and I'd bet 90% of them will tell you more stories about people who could have easily been booted, but the company worked with them and either got them their job back or got them through it. These are the stories I hear.

I don't claim SkyWest is perfect, just as no company, individual or organization is perfect. I regard it like the US compared to the World-by no means perfect, but it provides the best among the rest.

Your opinion may differ.

Guess you don't know anything about D.C., D.L., D.H., M.K.(fo),M.K.(cp), J.J, or C.H. who all got the shaft along with others?!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

SkyNation...it appears you have superfical ideals about unions only to have weathered SKW pilots reply to your posts and tell you the real deal.....

CFIT?

 

[Tarzan]

Skynation,

I've been going over your posts that you've made in the past and by a large margin, you respond to or defend the lack of a union at SkyWest. Why? Are you that worried or.... Is this one of your assignments from the company, to go to the various websites to combat any union drive that has gained some momentum?

Honestly, you sound more like the later.

 

[Morning Wood]

Yea Southwest is doing well and they have an in house union NOT ALPA. I believe they continue to thrive because they are not getting crap advice from ALPA. ALPA tends to poison every company culture. Southwests unions actually work with the company not against it. Most places are unionized, being non union gives us an excellent advantage. Management always has to keep us just happy enough to keep the union away. I wouldn't be opposed to an in-house union as long as certain angry people who will remain un-named have absolutely nothing to do with it. This drive has been going on since mid 2005 and is going no where fast. A lot of people I talk to sent in their card but don't plan on voting for it.



While I am sure that book means well it is also a biased book. It was written by an ALPA guy I believe so its obviously biased toward the union view.

While I agree with the ALPA part, the ramp is represented by the IAM. Most airlines past and present haven't fared very well dealing with them.

 

[Bako Cap]

Gr82Aviate,

Don't you think they should get paid? I'm sure that the uppers at union carriers get paid. I know, I know, they get paid from pilot dues and not management dollars like SAPA, but they should at least get paid for doing SAPA (pilot based focus group) work. It seems that with the recent failure of getting an in-house union, the pilot group doesn't want to pony up the money. I wouldn't have a problem paying my share to get them off the management b()()b. Also, if you think it's a conflict of intrest, get a movement going to recall the executive board or for that matter everyone in SAPA and start anew (there are provisions for recall in the bylaws). Or you can not do a thing and just bitch and moan on FI.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Gr82Aviate,

Don't you think they should get paid? I'm sure that the uppers at union carriers get paid. I know, I know, they get paid from pilot dues and not management dollars like SAPA, but they should at least get paid for doing SAPA (pilot based focus group) work. It seems that with the recent failure of getting an in-house union, the pilot group doesn't want to pony up the money. I wouldn't have a problem paying my share to get them off the management b()()b. Also, if you think it's a conflict of intrest, get a movement going to recall the executive board or for that matter everyone in SAPA and start anew (there are provisions for recall in the bylaws). Or you can not do a thing and just bitch and moan on FI.

My response was to state that they are getting paid, and not really unpaid "volunteers" as you implied!

 

[sweptback]

My response was to state that they are getting paid, and not really unpaid "volunteers" as you implied!

I think the vast majority of union reps/volunteers will say that they spend far more time working on their days off than times that they are covered by trip loss pay. Even when they do get trip loss pay, they just break even and miss out on any overblock/premium pay and the like. The number of pilots on full time trip loss pay at any property is pretty low... most are truly volunteers.

Of course if you think it's such a good deal then you are free to volunteer your services! Your pilot group will appreciate your service.

 

[bmpilot2003]

I think the vast majority of union reps/volunteers will say that they spend far more time working on their days off than times that they are covered by trip loss pay. Even when they do get trip loss pay, they just break even and miss out on any overblock/premium pay and the like. The number of pilots on full time trip loss pay at any property is pretty low... most are truly volunteers.

Of course if you think it's such a good deal then you are free to volunteer your services! Your pilot group will appreciate your service.

Im sorry but at 105 hours of pay SAPA reps SHOULD be working on their days off doing sapa work! Just flying the line almost never pays 105 hours a month even with the staffing shortages we have had this past year. So to say they volunteer a lot of their time on days off is BS. At 105 hours of pay you SAPA reps should be fighting for the skywest pilot group on your day off. For some that is so. Others definitely fall short and it wouldn't surprise me that one of the main reasons you or they applied was the 105 hours of pay.

 

[HelloNewman]

OK, you got me. But you have to admit, under the current system we are losing work rules (and the $ that goes with them) and are getting nothing in return. As somebody said earlier - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Guess what: IT'S BROKE!

Nope the old hard line system is what was really broke. PBS fixed that. No more boring predictable months doing the same thing over and over. No more having to sacrifice an entire month just to get days off you need. No more having to do stricty standups, 2-days, 3-days or 4-days. I have gained a lot since PBS has come on board. I can live with the new cancellation policy. After all you can't be in two places at once correct? As long as we are guaranteed what we were supposed to make I am ok with that. You can't be getting paid to do nothing all the time. The new interpretation is correct. If they go back to the old way I most certainly will not complain however. The fact is diversions happen pretty rarely. I have not had one in a few months now. What is ALPA exactly going to do to fix that? Grieve it and hear back a year or two later? By that time a lot of the pilots affected would probably be gone to another airline so its a moot point anyway. The grievance system is broke

 

[bmpilot2003]

Thats just it newman diversions happen rarely, i think the company can afford to pay them RARELY! GULLP GULP GULP keep drinkin newman

 

[HelloNewman]

Thats just it newman diversions happen rarely, i think the company can afford to pay them RARELY! GULLP GULP GULP keep drinkin newman

ahhhhh tastes fantastic. It hasn't affected me yet so I am not worried at all. Even if it does I divert maybe two, three times in a year if even that. I won't lose any sleep over that. Life is good for me, sounds like your going through life a little too upset. Perhaps looking at the big picture will help calm you down.

 

[Bako Cap]

bmpilot2003, only the Pres and VP get 105 when they are not flying the line. The Sec. gets half that when not flying the line. The rest of the 16 reps only get trips covered (when we are not short) with pay and as stated before do a lot more work than they are paid for trips covered.

 

[jayme]

Nope the old hard line system is what was really broke. PBS fixed that. Huh, and here I thought every pilot group that is being pushed to get PBS is trying to stick to hard lines. You are in the minority here. No more boring predictable months doing the same thing over and over. No more having to sacrifice an entire month just to get days off you need. No more having to do stricty standups, 2-days, 3-days or 4-days. I have gained a lot since PBS has come on board. Vacation accrual is not compatible with the new vacation bidding system under PBS. CN code has screwed MANY pilots by making them fly when they were senior enough to hold those days off under the old system, and best of all? NO JR MAN PAY!! I can live with the new cancellation policy. After all you can't be in two places at once correct? As long as we are guaranteed what we were supposed to make I am ok with that. You can't be getting paid to do nothing all the time. The new interpretation is correct. If they go back to the old way I most certainly will not complain however. It's not my fault that they agreed to pay us the way they had, but they DID agree. If they want to change it, they need to give us something in return. Lately it's been all take and no give. The fact is diversions happen pretty rarely. I have not had one in a few months now. Once again, it's all about you. You are the most selfish poster I have seen yet on this site. And that's saying a lot. What is ALPA exactly going to do to fix that? Grieve it and hear back a year or two later? ALPA wouldn't have to fix it: we would have a contract. That means that both parties are legally bound to uphold their agreement, unlike what we have now. And where did you get "a year or two?" Do you think SkyWest's system is any better? I've filed some complaints that took about a year. How many PICs have you filed? By that time a lot of the pilots affected would probably be gone to another airline so its a moot point anyway. The grievance system is broke

I have no hope for you. You believe so strongly that no amount of logic is going to sway you. I just hope some of the fence-sitters that read this see that when you look at this objectively, you are wrong.

 

[Bako Cap]

My response was to state that they are getting paid, and not really unpaid "volunteers" as you implied!

I should have said most are volunteers. Still they did origionally volunteer to become a rep and were elected into the paid position. The pres. is now elected by the whole pilot group and the VP and Sec. are elected within SAPA.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I think the vast majority of union reps/volunteers will say that they spend far more time working on their days off than times that they are covered by trip loss pay. Even when they do get trip loss pay, they just break even and miss out on any overblock/premium pay and the like. The number of pilots on full time trip loss pay at any property is pretty low... most are truly volunteers.

Of course if you think it's such a good deal then you are free to volunteer your services! Your pilot group will appreciate your service.

Last time I checked...we didn't have a union to volunteer for smart guy!I'll give you a hint(we're talking about SAPA)!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What is ALPA exactly going to do to fix that? Grieve it and hear back a year or two later? By that time a lot of the pilots affected would probably be gone to another airline so its a moot point anyway. The grievance system is broke

The grievance system isn't broke. It's efficiency is based in part on the quality of your representatives. In addition, grievances are basic and fundamental rights.

The sanitation workers fought the city of Memphis for these basic rights. They went on strike and it became quite a moment in the Civil Rights movement. MLK came to Memphis to address the issue and was killed. There is a street in Memphis off Beale called Nov 6th. It recognized the sanitation workers (all black men) who fought for the basic and fundamental right to address grievances.

Like any bonafide legal process it takes time. Grievances are not something you can order at the drive -thru. In addition what can make the grievance process slow is not ALPA, but the Railway Labor Act.

I don't know much about the PIC process at SKW.

Do the pilots at SKW have a cadre of experienced labor counsel, who are true unionists, to see the grievance process through?

Do the SKW pilots have a System Board of Adjustment so their grievances can be addressed, if they don't agree with their supervisors opinion?

Do the SKW pilots have a way for a third party arbitrator to rule on their grievances if they don't like the vote of the System Board of Adjustment?
​

This is very important is terms of not allowing any company to set precedence for improper firing, pilot pushing (violating PIC authority) and significant pay issues. It is also very important for individuals to be able to have a structured method that is controlled by the company to address their concerns.

Thoughts?

 

[FlyinScotsman]

What is a Skywest pilot to do if they feel they are being pushed around or abused or harassed???

Right now nothing!!!! You have no rights!

Most of you are sitting there saying "so, I don't get harassed or any of that" and "I don't need ALPA or any union messing up Skywest"

Well, I am sure there are a few at Skywest who feel they weren't treated fairly or were fired for something they felt was beyond their control. They have no way to fight it. If you were the one in the sights of the Skywest management team you would love some sort of representation. It is this "it isn't going to happen to me" attitude that is going to be your down fall at Skywest. You need a union for your own protection.

The grievance process that Res. talked about, although it can be slow, it also gives you a chance to stop abuse and get some power on your side.

 

[embdrvr]

bmpilot2003, only the Pres and VP get 105 when they are not flying the line. The Sec. gets half that when not flying the line. The rest of the 16 reps only get trips covered (when we are not short) with pay and as stated before do a lot more work than they are paid for trips covered.

The Sec stays home and gets paid 105 hours to watch the kids and occasionally field a phone call.
When was the last time anyone saw him fly a trip?
He's usually 3 or 4 months behind on getting the minutes published.

Maybe MN will get him replaced if he's elected.
Visit www.mn.com
You'll have to spell out his name though.

 

[embdrvr]

I believe we are given a fair shake here, despite what all the anti-company types on here claim. ask them about DD, who will probably win a large settlement and be able to retire early. he was treated wrongly, got an attorney, and in my estimation will gain a huge settlement. all without the supposed 'protection' of ALPA.

That's great for DD.
Now what happens to the guys that don't have 20, 30, or 40 thousand bucks available to hire the attorney? Luckily for DD he had the financial resources. Wouldn't it be better if we had ALPA and all pilots had the access to legal resources.

Are you aware that SkyWest fires a higher percentage of people than other airlines? Do you know that if you had ALPA that many of these firings wouldn't happen because they would be a slam dunk case of wrongful termination?

I just hope the next guy fired unjustly is you. Better to lose a cool-aid slugging dweeb than someone who actually wants a better future for himself and his coworkers.

 

[CFIT]

Up front simple ALPA question for those who may know: It appears ASA is going nowhere fast with their negotiations, if they were to be released to strike and were out the same amount as Comair was (approx 90 days) how and what would the "strike assessment" fee be to pilots at SkyWest if they were ALPA?

Would the strike assessment fee be different if, just suppose, UnitedNorthwestDelta (any legacy) pilots went on strike, what would be the fee for regional pilots?

Truly an honest question, no flame baiting. Thanks

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Divergent Discourse Alert

Hm.

I'm trying to figure these guys (D.C., D.L., D.H., M.K.(fo),M.K.(cp), J.J, or C.H.) out: I only know of a few folks and incidences. Any SkyWesters could PM just the names, or parts thereof.

RG

Gr82Aviate: KA?