ALPA Age 65 Vote

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Someone here had the best idea - drop ALPA and donate the dues money to charity - at least there, it would go in for a good purpose.

You sound like a gangsta rapper looking for street cred....

Open Skies, Rez? That means we'll have more carriers flying to more places overseas which means more jobs, right? Besides, globalization is upon us, and we just need to evolve, right Rez? I mean, why fight it if we'll piss people off with our opposition?

Stay focused onthe issue FD... you're getting fustrated, I sense...

Great... that means ALPA is outdated, and is really not necessary anymore because it doesn't stand for anything and unnecessarily takes your money.

No that just means that ALPA isn't YOUR customized union. It's called a democracy. Does your local, state and fed gov't do everything you like, just for you?

I can think of many better uses for 1.95% of my paycheck.

And yet other pilots want ALPA to function like they take 2.9%. It just shows that you can't make the vocal miniority happy.



Look man.... there is no one stop, express checkout shopping on all of this.


No one here can empathize rationally and professionally why ALPA is looking at Age65.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

They aren't looking out for senior captains Rez! They are continuously looking for ways to divide and conquer our profession. Our senior types just proved: Show em some money, and they'll sell out the profession.

Not sure the senior types went to the gov't and pushed this. Do you have information that this is a long standing senior pilot agenda?

I may be short on info you can understand, but I'm not short on facts.

How tall are you?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Will this also be your reccomended rational for dealing with cabotage, an unbalanced open skies agreement, or complete loss of the five freedoms/protections?

Seperate issue. It sounds like you are fighting with your spouse... always comming back to the issue that you feel you got screwed...

In the recent open skies negotiations, ALPA fought hard for labor and made significant ground.

The next rounds of Open Skies is in 2008. The question is...will you support the only organization that will be there to support you...or will you still be pissed about age 60...??

And that is the point. Age 60 means nothing if our right to work (or foreign rights are secured) is negotiated away in open skies...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. For this EVP to stand on his own on this issue really took some balls.

And why is that? Will the other EVP's make him sit by himself at dinner? IOW what reprecussions are there?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't care what they want to discuss, they are the ones that direct us! The membership has provided direction. Now it's our turn to follow that direction. If I ignored the will of my members, then I'd fully expect them to recall me. There's no excuse for blatantly ignoring the will of the membership.

So when a LEC Officer is directed to vote via resolution at the next MEC meeting, the LEC officer must vote the way the resolutions directs him/her? The LEC officer has no room for critical thought, cannot process new information...? then why even show up at the meeting?

Yes, many members are extremely irresponsible and don't participate in their own careers. That's been established. No one disagrees. It's just not relevant. The members that do participate have spoken. Period.

Agreed. That is a problem. When the minority rules. But that still doesn't obligate a leader.

I find it amazing that you would diminish the importance of the direction from the membership to such a degree. This lone EVP has stood up for the members and followed their direction, and you see fit to scoff at it? If you think that it's ok for the leadership to just ignore the members because "we know what's better for them," then just say so. Don't hide behind this excuse of the "majority of the minority."

Maybe it takes leadership to say to your membership.. "I know you want to go this way, but information and decision processes says we must go this way."

In this case (typed above) if the leadership is right..and the memebrship is wrong, then that is good leadership. . There are times when you find out what the membership wants and discover a way to deliver. Then again every citizen wants a 50% tax cut. Is that realistic? Each situation is unique.



The thing of it is... is the the membership sitting down at the meetings with the FAA, ICAO, ATA, DOT, WH etc... Just like a MEC meeting where a LEC Officer has direction via resolution, but votes differently because the LEC officer got briefed by counsel or other types...


The point? Age60 is so polarized because we are talking about personal gain or loss that it is hard to think outside the personal scope of the issue.


But you are connected PCL128.. Why is the leadership going in an opposite direction than the membership.

Finally, I am not necessarily pro-age65.....

 

[Flopgut]

No one here can empathize rationally and professionally why ALPA is looking at Age65.

But you can? Right.

Rez: I've been in three labor unions as a pilot. Two AFL-CIO, one independent. One was a closed shop. I have union experience beyond ALPA and I can honestly say I've been well represented outside of ALPA. There are unions doing better (and cheaper, BTW) than ALPA. I don't care about the dues so much, I want proper representation.

 

[Flopgut]

Not sure the senior types went to the gov't and pushed this. Do you have information that this is a long standing senior pilot agenda?



How tall are you?

Holy crap! You better read that again, I can't believe you just wrote that! Are you unaware of APAAD? Are you unaware of Prater's personal stance on this? His dialog with oversight? Good grief Rez, that's been an agenda item for senior pilots for over 20 years!

There is a potential labor friendly environment on the horizon. Age 65 is being availed the more senior contingent as an enabler to destabilize our chance at rightful recouping of remuneration.

 

[Flopgut]

Seperate issue. It sounds like you are fighting with your spouse... always comming back to the issue that you feel you got screwed...

In the recent open skies negotiations, ALPA fought hard for labor and made significant ground.

The next rounds of Open Skies is in 2008. The question is...will you support the only organization that will be there to support you...or will you still be pissed about age 60...??

And that is the point. Age 60 means nothing if our right to work (or foreign rights are secured) is negotiated away in open skies...

I disagree.

You can take any issue and overlay it on how the age 60 issue has been handled, project that into the future and realize that ALPA is failing at the leadership level.

Open skies, as it is, is opposed by the membership and strongly by the union. Just like age 65 was.

Now, before you simply blurt something unintelligible back, I want you to please think about what that means. If you brain starts hurting, I'll help you understand it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

But you can? Right.

Well obviously not... cause you are still polarized...

Rez: I've been in three labor unions as a pilot. Two AFL-CIO, one independent. One was a closed shop. I have union experience beyond ALPA and I can honestly say I've been well represented outside of ALPA. There are unions doing better (and cheaper, BTW) than ALPA. I don't care about the dues so much, I want proper representation.

I didn't know any other union was party to open skies negotiations.


You still don't know why ALPA is doing what its doing on age 60.... do you...

I am not even saying hwat they are doing is right... but you don't even know why....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I disagree.

You can take any issue and overlay it on how the age 60 issue has been handled, project that into the future and realize that ALPA is failing at the leadership level.

Doesn't sound very objective on your part....

Open skies, as it is, is opposed by the membership and strongly by the union. Just like age 65 was.

And yet gloabalization is going to happen...

Now, before you simply blurt something unintelligible back, I want you to please think about what that means. If you brain starts hurting, I'll help you understand it.

My brain does hurt... can I take a hit of what you're smokin?

 

[Flopgut]

And yet gloabalization is going to happen...

Sure! To a certain extent, very true. But what does not have to happen...what should never be allowed to happen...is a senior minority of the membership remortgaging the rest of the current membership, and all of the future membership, into a deal that serves their own selfish needs. Which is EXACTLY what age 65 seeks to do.

Look, it's great that you've decided to be optimistic. But I don't think you're being honest with yourself.

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... can you honestly say that ALPA actually WANTS membership participation? Because given the actions of our ALPA leadership, they don't seem to give a flying f**k about what membership wants.

So here we go:

1) Start going enmasse to the union meetings and demand our MEC starts the recall process of all ALPA officers at Herndon, and send our management a sign that ALPA's house in burning from within.

2) Say F**K ALPA! and just mind our own business... because regardless of how we feel or vote about an issue, despite the numbers, ALPA leadership is going to do as it damn well pleases...

Nice choices....

 

[N2264J]

Will this also be your reccomended rational for dealing with cabotage, an unbalanced open skies agreement, or complete loss of the five freedoms/protections?

Actually, Regionaltard gets it.

Age 65 is coming with or without ALPA. Doesn't matter how many pilots vote or how they voted. When ICAO started to allow foreign pilots to fly into this country up to age 65 last November, it was over.

Congressmen are running away from ALPA on the hill. The ones ALPA used to take for granted on this issue know what the score is and their support is going soft.

The "it's all about safety" justification was never credible and has been overcome by events. For ALPA to have at least some influence on how the new law will be implemented, it has to get out in front now or risk being completely irrelavant.

 

[Freight Dog]

.... or risk being completely irrelavant.

You mean it's not already?

ALPA has shown that it'll fold through the concessionary era, and now with Age 60 debate, once again, it's folding.

Tell me... if our government accepts Open Skies and unilaterally allows cabotage, so Albanian Airlines can fly pax from LAX to LAS, what's ALPA gonna do?

Yeah... that's what I thought.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I disagree.

You can take any issue and overlay it on how the age 60 issue has been handled, project that into the future and realize that ALPA is failing at the leadership level.

Doesn't sound very objective on your part....

Open skies, as it is, is opposed by the membership and strongly by the union. Just like age 65 was.

And yet gloabalization is going to happen...

Now, before you simply blurt something unintelligible back, I want you to please think about what that means. If you brain starts hurting, I'll help you understand it.

My brain does hurt... can I take a hit of what you're smokin?