ALPA Age 65 Vote

[regionaltard]

As it concerns ALPA's internal governance this poll has some value, but as it concerns the actual age 65 issue it's about as useful as trying to vote in the french parliamentary elections. The fact that a lot of the Membership understands that has a lot to do with the low level of participation in the survey. The fact that the "leadership" understands that tells me that they might actually be trying to lead rather then squander resources pandering to the desires of a bloc that really needs to just move on.

 

[El Pobre]

It doesn't matter what percentage of pilots vote or don't vote!!! What matters is what is the results of those pilots that do vote.

If only 35% of Americans vote for the president, isn't the guy who gets the majority of that 35% elected president (OK let's not get into electoral college stuff here), although it could apply. We don't sit around and assume that the other 65% would have voted one way or the other.

If people don't care enough to vote, than they shouldn't complain about the outcome. The problem is, is that the leadership say, "well, only 49% of the guys voted, so it's not really a majority, so we are just going to go on our merry way and decide policy however we care to." I'll bet if 10% of pilots stopped paying union dues for 2 months to protest the leaderships unilateral changing of the age 60 policy...they sure would notice (and care).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yike!

You're telling me! And all of this Age60 talk is small potatoes. Wait till Open Skies hits the membership.

Rez: That's crazy talk. Forget the exact issue for a second. The union leadership IS NOT doing what the membership wants them to do. The second vote is going to come back as solidly against this as the first (it appears). You're idea that the union is supposed to act in spite of membership's mandate is reckless, systemite facism!

Not really. Many if not most pilots seem to think that ALPA can change the monolith that is CapHill. When it comes to Age60 there are allot of players that are interested in the change. Not just pilots and how it will effect them individually. In addition, I am sure there are international politics at play here too.

So we are really dealing with industry, gov't and the international players. To think that this is something that ALPA can control is really niave and reckless.

This: let's vote, then do another vote...but before that vote ends decide to move against the membership majority's wishes, because we didn't quite mess with the survey enough...CRAP has to end! It's becoming more like a dicatorship every day. How you don't see that, I've no idea.

Again.... It is not about stopping age60. It is going to happen. Here are some other things that are going to happen. The sun will set. The tide will rise and fall. The sun will rise. To spend time and energy trying to stop this is reckless.

Basically the leadership is saying to remain a player and effect positive change and limit the impact we are going to work with the changes.

If ALPA fought this tooth and nail and was excluded from the process the end result will be less benefit for the pilots. It is the ol' honey/vinegar trick. In the end, we would have less and of course the pilots would be pissed off. But then ALPA could say "we did exactly as you wanted and fought the (unwinable) fight.

Now that I think about it.. either way the membership is going to be dis-satisifed with the end result.... screwed if you do-screwed if you don't

 

[Falconjet]

Rez: FedEx is now an agency shop, not closed. Not much difference, but that is what it is.

Also, you have obviously already gone over the cliff and hit your head.

Best of luck to you.

FJ

 

[Flopgut]

You're telling me! And all of this Age60 talk is small potatoes. Wait till Open Skies hits the membership.

Rez: Oh Kay?!.....

Wait until open skies hits the membership and, instead of fighting it for the greater good, ALPA convinces guys like you it's going to "happen anyway", while industry, govt and international bodies place a financial windfall device in front of the greedy minority who obscures the truth and: Walla! Open skies gets passed! You don't even realize it, but the fight for open skies, and every other thing we are going to face is right before us: It IS the age 60 debate!

Please remove Bill Hopson from your avatar. I have a feeling if he were alive right now, he'd like to kick you in the seeds!

 

[Flopgut]

Now that I think about it.. either way the membership is going to be dis-satisifed with the end result.... screwed if you do-screwed if you don't

Ohh Wow! That just occurred to you?! Your battlecry is "fixing ALPA"? You better start with something a little easier, you ain't even close!

ALPA had a choice. Do what the membership majority wanted, keep the union on track, strong, and unified.

OR?

Act in spite of the membership and seek to grant the most senior a secure payday that NO OTHER MEMBER is going to see! Senior ALPA captain's career earnings to age 60 are almost twice what anybody under 40 can remotely expect. Now they are going to get another million! This is the antithesis of how a union is supposed to work. It is what undoes collective bargaining. It is like a picket line that is going to be crossed. These pilots will have the same effect on union unity, and collective bargaining that replacement workers would have.

It is NOT: half the list is happy and the other half isn't. It is half the list is happy, and the other half is supposed to RETIRE! If you can't understand that, then NO age limit is ever going to work.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: FedEx is now an agency shop, not closed. Not much difference, but that is what it is.

Thanks for real and factual information

Also, you have obviously already gone over the cliff and hit your head.

Can you provide a reference to that?

Best of luck to you.

Ok, but Age 65 is still going to change.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wait until open skies hits the membership and, instead of fighting it for the greater good, ALPA convinces guys like you it's going to "happen anyway", while industry, govt and international bodies place a financial windfall device in front of the greedy minority who obscures the truth and: Walla! Open skies gets passed! You don't even realize it, but the fight for open skies, and every other thing we are going to face is right before us: It IS the age 60 debate!

This is pure emotion.. and debatable info?

Please remove Bill Hopson from your avatar. I have a feeling if he were alive right now, he'd like to kick you in the seeds!

You seem to have allot of feelings and not too much information...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ohh Wow! That just occurred to you?! Your battlecry is "fixing ALPA"? You better start with something a little easier, you ain't even close!

I am starting with membership activism. It is incredbily weak...

ALPA had a choice. Do what the membership majority wanted, keep the union on track, strong, and unified.

Unifed and furhter harmed?

OR?

Act in spite of the membership and seek to grant the most senior a secure payday that NO OTHER MEMBER is going to see! Senior ALPA captain's career earnings to age 60 are almost twice what anybody under 40 can remotely expect. Now they are going to get another million! This is the antithesis of how a union is supposed to work. It is what undoes collective bargaining. It is like a picket line that is going to be crossed. These pilots will have the same effect on union unity, and collective bargaining that replacement workers would have.

Why would the FAA and industry be looking out for senior Capts?

It is NOT: half the list is happy and the other half isn't. It is half the list is happy, and the other half is supposed to RETIRE! If you can't understand that, then NO age limit is ever going to work.

And yet it still isn't going your way? Why is that? Is the leadership on the take? corrupt? Stupid? Self absorbed?

 

[Freight Dog]

Someone here had the best idea - drop ALPA and donate the dues money to charity - at least there, it would go in for a good purpose.

Open Skies, Rez? That means we'll have more carriers flying to more places overseas which means more jobs, right? Besides, globalization is upon us, and we just need to evolve, right Rez? I mean, why fight it if we'll piss people off with our opposition?

Great... that means ALPA is outdated, and is really not necessary anymore because it doesn't stand for anything and unnecessarily takes your money.

I can think of many better uses for 1.95% of my paycheck.

 

[Flopgut]

Why would the FAA and industry be looking out for senior Capts?

They aren't looking out for senior captains Rez! They are continuously looking for ways to divide and conquer our profession. Our senior types just proved: Show em some money, and they'll sell out the profession.

I may be short on info you can understand, but I'm not short on facts.

 

[Flopgut]

As it concerns ALPA's internal governance this poll has some value, but as it concerns the actual age 65 issue it's about as useful as trying to vote in the french parliamentary elections. The fact that a lot of the Membership understands that has a lot to do with the low level of participation in the survey. The fact that the "leadership" understands that tells me that they might actually be trying to lead rather then squander resources pandering to the desires of a bloc that really needs to just move on.

Will this also be your reccomended rational for dealing with cabotage, an unbalanced open skies agreement, or complete loss of the five freedoms/protections?

 

[PCL_128]

Wow. Are you talking about the EC vote? THE EC vote? How did it turn out? I'm interested...please tell me more!

You're probably thinking about the EB vote that will determine what ALPA's policy will be going forward. The EC is the governing body that passed the resolution that you see on the ALPA.org website. The EC now sends that resolution to the EB to vote on the policy in a couple of weeks. That EB vote will be what changes ALPA policy.

The EC vote came down with only one member voting against the resolution. To give you some perspective on this, I'd say about 98% of all votes on the EC are unanimous. Dissent is highly irregular. For this EVP to stand on his own on this issue really took some balls.

 

[PCL_128]

So the Titiantic is going down and the membership wants to discuss deck chair arrangement and tomorrow nights dinner menu. Got it.

I don't care what they want to discuss, they are the ones that direct us! The membership has provided direction. Now it's our turn to follow that direction. If I ignored the will of my members, then I'd fully expect them to recall me. There's no excuse for blatantly ignoring the will of the membership.

Oh.. you are talking a majority of the minority... Sounds like a real responsible membership... we've got here....

Yes, many members are extremely irresponsible and don't participate in their own careers. That's been established. No one disagrees. It's just not relevant. The members that do participate have spoken. Period.

So one guy wants to talk about creme brulee and deck chair arrangement. That certainly is his right.

I find it amazing that you would diminish the importance of the direction from the membership to such a degree. This lone EVP has stood up for the members and followed their direction, and you see fit to scoff at it? If you think that it's ok for the leadership to just ignore the members because "we know what's better for them," then just say so. Don't hide behind this excuse of the "majority of the minority."

 

[Flopgut]

You're probably thinking about the EB vote that will determine what ALPA's policy will be going forward. The EC is the governing body that passed the resolution that you see on the ALPA.org website. The EC now sends that resolution to the EB to vote on the policy in a couple of weeks. That EB vote will be what changes ALPA policy.

The EC vote came down with only one member voting against the resolution. To give you some perspective on this, I'd say about 98% of all votes on the EC are unanimous. Dissent is highly irregular. For this EVP to stand on his own on this issue really took some balls.

Thank You PCL128. Great info.