ALPA Age 65 Vote

[Flopgut]

Now that I think about it.. either way the membership is going to be dis-satisifed with the end result.... screwed if you do-screwed if you don't

Ohh Wow! That just occurred to you?! Your battlecry is "fixing ALPA"? You better start with something a little easier, you ain't even close!

ALPA had a choice. Do what the membership majority wanted, keep the union on track, strong, and unified.

OR?

Act in spite of the membership and seek to grant the most senior a secure payday that NO OTHER MEMBER is going to see! Senior ALPA captain's career earnings to age 60 are almost twice what anybody under 40 can remotely expect. Now they are going to get another million! This is the antithesis of how a union is supposed to work. It is what undoes collective bargaining. It is like a picket line that is going to be crossed. These pilots will have the same effect on union unity, and collective bargaining that replacement workers would have.

It is NOT: half the list is happy and the other half isn't. It is half the list is happy, and the other half is supposed to RETIRE! If you can't understand that, then NO age limit is ever going to work.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: FedEx is now an agency shop, not closed. Not much difference, but that is what it is.

Thanks for real and factual information

Also, you have obviously already gone over the cliff and hit your head.

Can you provide a reference to that?

Best of luck to you.

Ok, but Age 65 is still going to change.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wait until open skies hits the membership and, instead of fighting it for the greater good, ALPA convinces guys like you it's going to "happen anyway", while industry, govt and international bodies place a financial windfall device in front of the greedy minority who obscures the truth and: Walla! Open skies gets passed! You don't even realize it, but the fight for open skies, and every other thing we are going to face is right before us: It IS the age 60 debate!

This is pure emotion.. and debatable info?

Please remove Bill Hopson from your avatar. I have a feeling if he were alive right now, he'd like to kick you in the seeds!

You seem to have allot of feelings and not too much information...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ohh Wow! That just occurred to you?! Your battlecry is "fixing ALPA"? You better start with something a little easier, you ain't even close!

I am starting with membership activism. It is incredbily weak...

ALPA had a choice. Do what the membership majority wanted, keep the union on track, strong, and unified.

Unifed and furhter harmed?

OR?

Act in spite of the membership and seek to grant the most senior a secure payday that NO OTHER MEMBER is going to see! Senior ALPA captain's career earnings to age 60 are almost twice what anybody under 40 can remotely expect. Now they are going to get another million! This is the antithesis of how a union is supposed to work. It is what undoes collective bargaining. It is like a picket line that is going to be crossed. These pilots will have the same effect on union unity, and collective bargaining that replacement workers would have.

Why would the FAA and industry be looking out for senior Capts?

It is NOT: half the list is happy and the other half isn't. It is half the list is happy, and the other half is supposed to RETIRE! If you can't understand that, then NO age limit is ever going to work.

And yet it still isn't going your way? Why is that? Is the leadership on the take? corrupt? Stupid? Self absorbed?

 

[Freight Dog]

Someone here had the best idea - drop ALPA and donate the dues money to charity - at least there, it would go in for a good purpose.

Open Skies, Rez? That means we'll have more carriers flying to more places overseas which means more jobs, right? Besides, globalization is upon us, and we just need to evolve, right Rez? I mean, why fight it if we'll piss people off with our opposition?

Great... that means ALPA is outdated, and is really not necessary anymore because it doesn't stand for anything and unnecessarily takes your money.

I can think of many better uses for 1.95% of my paycheck.

 

[Flopgut]

Why would the FAA and industry be looking out for senior Capts?

They aren't looking out for senior captains Rez! They are continuously looking for ways to divide and conquer our profession. Our senior types just proved: Show em some money, and they'll sell out the profession.

I may be short on info you can understand, but I'm not short on facts.

 

[Flopgut]

As it concerns ALPA's internal governance this poll has some value, but as it concerns the actual age 65 issue it's about as useful as trying to vote in the french parliamentary elections. The fact that a lot of the Membership understands that has a lot to do with the low level of participation in the survey. The fact that the "leadership" understands that tells me that they might actually be trying to lead rather then squander resources pandering to the desires of a bloc that really needs to just move on.

Will this also be your reccomended rational for dealing with cabotage, an unbalanced open skies agreement, or complete loss of the five freedoms/protections?

 

[PCL_128]

Wow. Are you talking about the EC vote? THE EC vote? How did it turn out? I'm interested...please tell me more!

You're probably thinking about the EB vote that will determine what ALPA's policy will be going forward. The EC is the governing body that passed the resolution that you see on the ALPA.org website. The EC now sends that resolution to the EB to vote on the policy in a couple of weeks. That EB vote will be what changes ALPA policy.

The EC vote came down with only one member voting against the resolution. To give you some perspective on this, I'd say about 98% of all votes on the EC are unanimous. Dissent is highly irregular. For this EVP to stand on his own on this issue really took some balls.

 

[PCL_128]

So the Titiantic is going down and the membership wants to discuss deck chair arrangement and tomorrow nights dinner menu. Got it.

I don't care what they want to discuss, they are the ones that direct us! The membership has provided direction. Now it's our turn to follow that direction. If I ignored the will of my members, then I'd fully expect them to recall me. There's no excuse for blatantly ignoring the will of the membership.

Oh.. you are talking a majority of the minority... Sounds like a real responsible membership... we've got here....

Yes, many members are extremely irresponsible and don't participate in their own careers. That's been established. No one disagrees. It's just not relevant. The members that do participate have spoken. Period.

So one guy wants to talk about creme brulee and deck chair arrangement. That certainly is his right.

I find it amazing that you would diminish the importance of the direction from the membership to such a degree. This lone EVP has stood up for the members and followed their direction, and you see fit to scoff at it? If you think that it's ok for the leadership to just ignore the members because "we know what's better for them," then just say so. Don't hide behind this excuse of the "majority of the minority."

 

[Flopgut]

You're probably thinking about the EB vote that will determine what ALPA's policy will be going forward. The EC is the governing body that passed the resolution that you see on the ALPA.org website. The EC now sends that resolution to the EB to vote on the policy in a couple of weeks. That EB vote will be what changes ALPA policy.

The EC vote came down with only one member voting against the resolution. To give you some perspective on this, I'd say about 98% of all votes on the EC are unanimous. Dissent is highly irregular. For this EVP to stand on his own on this issue really took some balls.

Thank You PCL128. Great info.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Someone here had the best idea - drop ALPA and donate the dues money to charity - at least there, it would go in for a good purpose.

You sound like a gangsta rapper looking for street cred....

Open Skies, Rez? That means we'll have more carriers flying to more places overseas which means more jobs, right? Besides, globalization is upon us, and we just need to evolve, right Rez? I mean, why fight it if we'll piss people off with our opposition?

Stay focused onthe issue FD... you're getting fustrated, I sense...

Great... that means ALPA is outdated, and is really not necessary anymore because it doesn't stand for anything and unnecessarily takes your money.

No that just means that ALPA isn't YOUR customized union. It's called a democracy. Does your local, state and fed gov't do everything you like, just for you?

I can think of many better uses for 1.95% of my paycheck.

And yet other pilots want ALPA to function like they take 2.9%. It just shows that you can't make the vocal miniority happy.



Look man.... there is no one stop, express checkout shopping on all of this.


No one here can empathize rationally and professionally why ALPA is looking at Age65.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

They aren't looking out for senior captains Rez! They are continuously looking for ways to divide and conquer our profession. Our senior types just proved: Show em some money, and they'll sell out the profession.

Not sure the senior types went to the gov't and pushed this. Do you have information that this is a long standing senior pilot agenda?

I may be short on info you can understand, but I'm not short on facts.

How tall are you?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Will this also be your reccomended rational for dealing with cabotage, an unbalanced open skies agreement, or complete loss of the five freedoms/protections?

Seperate issue. It sounds like you are fighting with your spouse... always comming back to the issue that you feel you got screwed...

In the recent open skies negotiations, ALPA fought hard for labor and made significant ground.

The next rounds of Open Skies is in 2008. The question is...will you support the only organization that will be there to support you...or will you still be pissed about age 60...??

And that is the point. Age 60 means nothing if our right to work (or foreign rights are secured) is negotiated away in open skies...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

. For this EVP to stand on his own on this issue really took some balls.

And why is that? Will the other EVP's make him sit by himself at dinner? IOW what reprecussions are there?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't care what they want to discuss, they are the ones that direct us! The membership has provided direction. Now it's our turn to follow that direction. If I ignored the will of my members, then I'd fully expect them to recall me. There's no excuse for blatantly ignoring the will of the membership.

So when a LEC Officer is directed to vote via resolution at the next MEC meeting, the LEC officer must vote the way the resolutions directs him/her? The LEC officer has no room for critical thought, cannot process new information...? then why even show up at the meeting?

Yes, many members are extremely irresponsible and don't participate in their own careers. That's been established. No one disagrees. It's just not relevant. The members that do participate have spoken. Period.

Agreed. That is a problem. When the minority rules. But that still doesn't obligate a leader.

I find it amazing that you would diminish the importance of the direction from the membership to such a degree. This lone EVP has stood up for the members and followed their direction, and you see fit to scoff at it? If you think that it's ok for the leadership to just ignore the members because "we know what's better for them," then just say so. Don't hide behind this excuse of the "majority of the minority."

Maybe it takes leadership to say to your membership.. "I know you want to go this way, but information and decision processes says we must go this way."

In this case (typed above) if the leadership is right..and the memebrship is wrong, then that is good leadership. . There are times when you find out what the membership wants and discover a way to deliver. Then again every citizen wants a 50% tax cut. Is that realistic? Each situation is unique.



The thing of it is... is the the membership sitting down at the meetings with the FAA, ICAO, ATA, DOT, WH etc... Just like a MEC meeting where a LEC Officer has direction via resolution, but votes differently because the LEC officer got briefed by counsel or other types...


The point? Age60 is so polarized because we are talking about personal gain or loss that it is hard to think outside the personal scope of the issue.


But you are connected PCL128.. Why is the leadership going in an opposite direction than the membership.

Finally, I am not necessarily pro-age65.....

 

[Flopgut]

No one here can empathize rationally and professionally why ALPA is looking at Age65.

But you can? Right.

Rez: I've been in three labor unions as a pilot. Two AFL-CIO, one independent. One was a closed shop. I have union experience beyond ALPA and I can honestly say I've been well represented outside of ALPA. There are unions doing better (and cheaper, BTW) than ALPA. I don't care about the dues so much, I want proper representation.

 

[Flopgut]

Not sure the senior types went to the gov't and pushed this. Do you have information that this is a long standing senior pilot agenda?



How tall are you?

Holy crap! You better read that again, I can't believe you just wrote that! Are you unaware of APAAD? Are you unaware of Prater's personal stance on this? His dialog with oversight? Good grief Rez, that's been an agenda item for senior pilots for over 20 years!

There is a potential labor friendly environment on the horizon. Age 65 is being availed the more senior contingent as an enabler to destabilize our chance at rightful recouping of remuneration.

 

[Flopgut]

Seperate issue. It sounds like you are fighting with your spouse... always comming back to the issue that you feel you got screwed...

In the recent open skies negotiations, ALPA fought hard for labor and made significant ground.

The next rounds of Open Skies is in 2008. The question is...will you support the only organization that will be there to support you...or will you still be pissed about age 60...??

And that is the point. Age 60 means nothing if our right to work (or foreign rights are secured) is negotiated away in open skies...

I disagree.

You can take any issue and overlay it on how the age 60 issue has been handled, project that into the future and realize that ALPA is failing at the leadership level.

Open skies, as it is, is opposed by the membership and strongly by the union. Just like age 65 was.

Now, before you simply blurt something unintelligible back, I want you to please think about what that means. If you brain starts hurting, I'll help you understand it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

But you can? Right.

Well obviously not... cause you are still polarized...

Rez: I've been in three labor unions as a pilot. Two AFL-CIO, one independent. One was a closed shop. I have union experience beyond ALPA and I can honestly say I've been well represented outside of ALPA. There are unions doing better (and cheaper, BTW) than ALPA. I don't care about the dues so much, I want proper representation.

I didn't know any other union was party to open skies negotiations.


You still don't know why ALPA is doing what its doing on age 60.... do you...

I am not even saying hwat they are doing is right... but you don't even know why....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I disagree.

You can take any issue and overlay it on how the age 60 issue has been handled, project that into the future and realize that ALPA is failing at the leadership level.

Doesn't sound very objective on your part....

Open skies, as it is, is opposed by the membership and strongly by the union. Just like age 65 was.

And yet gloabalization is going to happen...

Now, before you simply blurt something unintelligible back, I want you to please think about what that means. If you brain starts hurting, I'll help you understand it.

My brain does hurt... can I take a hit of what you're smokin?