Allegiant seeks B757s, may create alter-ego airline

[IAHERJ]

Hopefully when Hell freezes over....

 

[ualdriver]

I don't see as much whipsaw potential because an MD80 can't necessarily do 757 missions - they would have to be relatively short-haul to provide whipsaw potential. Do you think you would see 757s flying the LAS-DSM or IWA-MSO flights? I can see 757s operating out of LAX, LAX and SFB due to large population bases.

I'd have to disagree with that. There's HUGE whipsaw potential. It doesn't matter that they have different missions. He can just move aircraft between certificates and instead of Joe Smith airline passenger buying a ticket between LAS and DSM on Allegiant Travel Company with its "expensive" MD80 pilots, they buy the ticket on Allegiant Travel Happy Pilot Company, a limited liability subsidiary of Allegiant Travel Company with 757's and a growing fleet of recently transferred MD-80's. The passenger doesn't care, they just want cheap tickets. The CEO doesn't care, the money goes into his pocket no matter what branch of the holding company gets the business. The only people that care are the pilots.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Good review. That said, the MD80 is not a 757. I doubt you will see 757s operating on the LAX-DSM, LAS-ICT or SFB-BGR routes. The 757 will be used for different missions I would think (i.e., Hawaii after ETOPS is achieved down the road). I don't see as much whipsaw potential because an MD80 can't necessarily do 757 missions - they would have to be relatively short-haul to provide whipsaw potential. Do you think you would see 757s flying the LAS-DSM or IWA-MSO flights? I can see 757s operating out of LAX, LAX and SFB due to large population bases.

Should be interesting to watch. Any prediction on when we might start seeing the 757s? Any date estimates yet? As early as 2010?[/QUOTE]

Not sure when they might add 757s, don't work there. But just want to add, that the 'Pace Airline' certificate is still out there, operating with one 757 on the certif. (Mark Cuban's 75), its For sale, and all ready to go. If they buy that certificate, or another like it, pretty much a 'turnkey' operation, so can happen really quick.

Also, on a side note, while it is a good market for used airliners, and there are 75s out there; there are not a lot of good 757s out there available; i.e. with good cycles remaining before aging a/c, ETOPs equip/certif. and good engines (as the RR powered a/c are still the better a/c for payload/range, etc).

Anyway, pilots have been 'rolling over' for management for YEARS now, that's why they will probably get what they want. One BIG reason why we (the pilots/industry) is in the situation it is today. Look at all of the pilots (especially low time pilots) who would/will beat down the door of ALGT, just to get into a Big Jet (MD-80), and a 'quick upgrade' and not really care about pay, scope, etc.

You can talk all you want about 'management' but 'WE' have been our own worst enemy for quite a few years now. Not sure when it is going to change.

For what its worth.

Also, before anyone decides to 'slam' me, at least want to say; that many Many times, been furloughed, and have chose to remain unemployed, or did other things, rather than work for $hit pay, and/or sign 'training contracts' etc. Turned down offers that I thought were 'not worth it' but.......

PD

 

[ualdriver]

For what its worth.

Also, before anyone decides to 'slam' me, at least want to say; that many Many times, been furloughed, and have chose to remain unemployed, or did other things, rather than work for $hit pay, and/or sign 'training contracts' etc. Turned down offers that I thought were 'not worth it' but.......

PD

I think that is worth a lot. I plan on doing the same thing if United fails, and I'm not independently wealthy or anything. I also can't tell you how many furloughees have told us remaining at my airline to "hold the line" here at my job, then later tell me how they have apps. in with Virgin America, for example. Apparently some feel that those of us remaining at our jobs have to put our financial health at risk by burning the place down if necessary during contract negotiations (which many of us are pissed off enough to do), but aren't willing to take the same financial risk themselves with their choice of employment. Oh well.

 

[The Victors]

Yup. Gallagher knows that no matter what he does, he's going to piss off his pilots, possibly getting even a weak group like these guys to unionize. If he gets the 757 on a separate certificate, he can set up a whipsaw. That way, if the Allegiant pilots unionize and ask for something ridiculous like industry standard wages or a retirement, he can just threaten that the MD-80 guys are "too expensive" and move the flying to the opposite certificate.

The guys on the 757 side will be happy and content, with their shiny new 757's and wouldn't dare "tip the apple cart" to ruin their good deal on their side of the fence by doing something stupid like unionizing or complaining. They'll have fast growth and upgrades, and will care less about what is happening to their MD-80 brethren. These 757 pilots will also be on forums like flightinfo.com, vigorously defending their low pay rates just as the Allegiant MD-80 pilots have done for years. Expect to hear phrases like "we're just starting out," and "we only have xx airplanes, how can we affect wages elsewhere," and, my personal favorite, "we have a great relationship with management."

In my opinion, the Allegiant pilots are now in a serious pickle, being screwed no matter they do. Had they organized years ago when they should have, they would have at least been able to put up an organized front from the beginning and perhaps gotten wording in their contract that would have prevented a separate certificate. Would any Virgin America guys like to comment on what's unfolding at Allegiant?

You are exactly correct. This is the price we all pay with these guys working for garbage wages. They never "get it" until it comes around. Well it's coming around for the allegiant kids and hopefully it comes around for VA soon too.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Great! Another undercut of mainline pay rates. Hey, let's all make sure these guys get on the jumpseat so they can go on vacation for free.

 

[Dix-Bag]

Great! Another undercut of mainline pay rates. Hey, let's all make sure these guys get on the jumpseat so they can go on vacation for free.

Yea, Let's make the pilots pay for the missteps of their managers!

From fltops.com

The pilots of Allegiant Air have taken the first steps in pursuing national representation through the Air Line Pilots Association, Intl. (ALPA). Despite having an in-house association—the Allegiant Air Pilot Advisory Group (AAPAG)—many Allegiant pilots felt management was not willing to work with AAPG and the group had no legal ground to stand on.
“AAPAG, in its function as the ‘alternative to a union’ has been deemed ineffective in the eyes of a great many members of our rank and file,” said Steven Giordano of the organizing committee in a message to the pilots. “Though noble in its intended purpose, AAPAG’s biggest flaw was that its ‘value’ was contingent upon management’s willingness to validate its existence.”
The organizing committee is growing, Giordano said, and will be trained by ALPA to continue the drive; training should be completed by the end of July. The “master list” of pilots has been submitted to ALPA. The committee will next petition the National Mediation Board (NMB) to approve a union drive on Allegiant Air property by the Allegiant Air pilots for ALPA representation.
“It is no secret that the pilots of Allegiant Air work under some of the loosest and least crew-friendly work rules in the industry,” Giordano said. “It is also no secret that at the end of the year, the average Allegiant pilot’s income is significantly lower than ANY other airline operating similar equipment. When these facts are considered with the reality that Allegiant operates with the highest profit margins in the industry, we are left scratching our heads. We are confident that we can achieve compensation appropriately in line with our peer airlines without significantly detracting from Allegiant’s record profitability.”

 

[ualdriver]

Yea, Let's make the pilots pay for the missteps of their managers!

From fltops.com

The pilots of Allegiant Air have taken the first steps in pursuing national representation through the Air Line Pilots Association, Intl. (ALPA). Despite having an in-house association—the Allegiant Air Pilot Advisory Group (AAPAG)—many Allegiant pilots felt management was not willing to work with AAPG and the group had no legal ground to stand on.
“AAPAG, in its function as the ‘alternative to a union’ has been deemed ineffective in the eyes of a great many members of our rank and file,” said Steven Giordano of the organizing committee in a message to the pilots. “Though noble in its intended purpose, AAPAG’s biggest flaw was that its ‘value’ was contingent upon management’s willingness to validate its existence.”
The organizing committee is growing, Giordano said, and will be trained by ALPA to continue the drive; training should be completed by the end of July. The “master list” of pilots has been submitted to ALPA. The committee will next petition the National Mediation Board (NMB) to approve a union drive on Allegiant Air property by the Allegiant Air pilots for ALPA representation.
“It is no secret that the pilots of Allegiant Air work under some of the loosest and least crew-friendly work rules in the industry,” Giordano said. “It is also no secret that at the end of the year, the average Allegiant pilot’s income is significantly lower than ANY other airline operating similar equipment. When these facts are considered with the reality that Allegiant operates with the highest profit margins in the industry, we are left scratching our heads. We are confident that we can achieve compensation appropriately in line with our peer airlines without significantly detracting from Allegiant’s record profitability.”

Wow, I wouldn't have guessed you guys would unionize in a million years, never mind join ALPA. Well, if the above is true, I guess I publicly insert my foot in my mouth concerning some of my comments

 

[johnsonrod]

Watch some of the old Allegiant dorks try to derail it...

 

[fly4surf]

They will surely be trying, for who knows why, to the detriment of themselves and the guys fighting the good fight.