Allegiant seeks B757s, may create alter-ego airline

[IAHERJ]

Hopefully when Hell freezes over....

 

[ualdriver]

I don't see as much whipsaw potential because an MD80 can't necessarily do 757 missions - they would have to be relatively short-haul to provide whipsaw potential. Do you think you would see 757s flying the LAS-DSM or IWA-MSO flights? I can see 757s operating out of LAX, LAX and SFB due to large population bases.

I'd have to disagree with that. There's HUGE whipsaw potential. It doesn't matter that they have different missions. He can just move aircraft between certificates and instead of Joe Smith airline passenger buying a ticket between LAS and DSM on Allegiant Travel Company with its "expensive" MD80 pilots, they buy the ticket on Allegiant Travel Happy Pilot Company, a limited liability subsidiary of Allegiant Travel Company with 757's and a growing fleet of recently transferred MD-80's. The passenger doesn't care, they just want cheap tickets. The CEO doesn't care, the money goes into his pocket no matter what branch of the holding company gets the business. The only people that care are the pilots.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Good review. That said, the MD80 is not a 757. I doubt you will see 757s operating on the LAX-DSM, LAS-ICT or SFB-BGR routes. The 757 will be used for different missions I would think (i.e., Hawaii after ETOPS is achieved down the road). I don't see as much whipsaw potential because an MD80 can't necessarily do 757 missions - they would have to be relatively short-haul to provide whipsaw potential. Do you think you would see 757s flying the LAS-DSM or IWA-MSO flights? I can see 757s operating out of LAX, LAX and SFB due to large population bases.

Should be interesting to watch. Any prediction on when we might start seeing the 757s? Any date estimates yet? As early as 2010?[/QUOTE]

Not sure when they might add 757s, don't work there. But just want to add, that the 'Pace Airline' certificate is still out there, operating with one 757 on the certif. (Mark Cuban's 75), its For sale, and all ready to go. If they buy that certificate, or another like it, pretty much a 'turnkey' operation, so can happen really quick.

Also, on a side note, while it is a good market for used airliners, and there are 75s out there; there are not a lot of good 757s out there available; i.e. with good cycles remaining before aging a/c, ETOPs equip/certif. and good engines (as the RR powered a/c are still the better a/c for payload/range, etc).

Anyway, pilots have been 'rolling over' for management for YEARS now, that's why they will probably get what they want. One BIG reason why we (the pilots/industry) is in the situation it is today. Look at all of the pilots (especially low time pilots) who would/will beat down the door of ALGT, just to get into a Big Jet (MD-80), and a 'quick upgrade' and not really care about pay, scope, etc.

You can talk all you want about 'management' but 'WE' have been our own worst enemy for quite a few years now. Not sure when it is going to change.

For what its worth.

Also, before anyone decides to 'slam' me, at least want to say; that many Many times, been furloughed, and have chose to remain unemployed, or did other things, rather than work for $hit pay, and/or sign 'training contracts' etc. Turned down offers that I thought were 'not worth it' but.......

PD

 

[ualdriver]

For what its worth.

Also, before anyone decides to 'slam' me, at least want to say; that many Many times, been furloughed, and have chose to remain unemployed, or did other things, rather than work for $hit pay, and/or sign 'training contracts' etc. Turned down offers that I thought were 'not worth it' but.......

PD

I think that is worth a lot. I plan on doing the same thing if United fails, and I'm not independently wealthy or anything. I also can't tell you how many furloughees have told us remaining at my airline to "hold the line" here at my job, then later tell me how they have apps. in with Virgin America, for example. Apparently some feel that those of us remaining at our jobs have to put our financial health at risk by burning the place down if necessary during contract negotiations (which many of us are pissed off enough to do), but aren't willing to take the same financial risk themselves with their choice of employment. Oh well.

 

[The Victors]

Yup. Gallagher knows that no matter what he does, he's going to piss off his pilots, possibly getting even a weak group like these guys to unionize. If he gets the 757 on a separate certificate, he can set up a whipsaw. That way, if the Allegiant pilots unionize and ask for something ridiculous like industry standard wages or a retirement, he can just threaten that the MD-80 guys are "too expensive" and move the flying to the opposite certificate.

The guys on the 757 side will be happy and content, with their shiny new 757's and wouldn't dare "tip the apple cart" to ruin their good deal on their side of the fence by doing something stupid like unionizing or complaining. They'll have fast growth and upgrades, and will care less about what is happening to their MD-80 brethren. These 757 pilots will also be on forums like flightinfo.com, vigorously defending their low pay rates just as the Allegiant MD-80 pilots have done for years. Expect to hear phrases like "we're just starting out," and "we only have xx airplanes, how can we affect wages elsewhere," and, my personal favorite, "we have a great relationship with management."

In my opinion, the Allegiant pilots are now in a serious pickle, being screwed no matter they do. Had they organized years ago when they should have, they would have at least been able to put up an organized front from the beginning and perhaps gotten wording in their contract that would have prevented a separate certificate. Would any Virgin America guys like to comment on what's unfolding at Allegiant?

You are exactly correct. This is the price we all pay with these guys working for garbage wages. They never "get it" until it comes around. Well it's coming around for the allegiant kids and hopefully it comes around for VA soon too.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Great! Another undercut of mainline pay rates. Hey, let's all make sure these guys get on the jumpseat so they can go on vacation for free.

 

[Dix-Bag]

Great! Another undercut of mainline pay rates. Hey, let's all make sure these guys get on the jumpseat so they can go on vacation for free.

Yea, Let's make the pilots pay for the missteps of their managers!

From fltops.com

The pilots of Allegiant Air have taken the first steps in pursuing national representation through the Air Line Pilots Association, Intl. (ALPA). Despite having an in-house association—the Allegiant Air Pilot Advisory Group (AAPAG)—many Allegiant pilots felt management was not willing to work with AAPG and the group had no legal ground to stand on.
“AAPAG, in its function as the ‘alternative to a union’ has been deemed ineffective in the eyes of a great many members of our rank and file,” said Steven Giordano of the organizing committee in a message to the pilots. “Though noble in its intended purpose, AAPAG’s biggest flaw was that its ‘value’ was contingent upon management’s willingness to validate its existence.”
The organizing committee is growing, Giordano said, and will be trained by ALPA to continue the drive; training should be completed by the end of July. The “master list” of pilots has been submitted to ALPA. The committee will next petition the National Mediation Board (NMB) to approve a union drive on Allegiant Air property by the Allegiant Air pilots for ALPA representation.
“It is no secret that the pilots of Allegiant Air work under some of the loosest and least crew-friendly work rules in the industry,” Giordano said. “It is also no secret that at the end of the year, the average Allegiant pilot’s income is significantly lower than ANY other airline operating similar equipment. When these facts are considered with the reality that Allegiant operates with the highest profit margins in the industry, we are left scratching our heads. We are confident that we can achieve compensation appropriately in line with our peer airlines without significantly detracting from Allegiant’s record profitability.”

 

[ualdriver]

Yea, Let's make the pilots pay for the missteps of their managers!

From fltops.com

The pilots of Allegiant Air have taken the first steps in pursuing national representation through the Air Line Pilots Association, Intl. (ALPA). Despite having an in-house association—the Allegiant Air Pilot Advisory Group (AAPAG)—many Allegiant pilots felt management was not willing to work with AAPG and the group had no legal ground to stand on.
“AAPAG, in its function as the ‘alternative to a union’ has been deemed ineffective in the eyes of a great many members of our rank and file,” said Steven Giordano of the organizing committee in a message to the pilots. “Though noble in its intended purpose, AAPAG’s biggest flaw was that its ‘value’ was contingent upon management’s willingness to validate its existence.”
The organizing committee is growing, Giordano said, and will be trained by ALPA to continue the drive; training should be completed by the end of July. The “master list” of pilots has been submitted to ALPA. The committee will next petition the National Mediation Board (NMB) to approve a union drive on Allegiant Air property by the Allegiant Air pilots for ALPA representation.
“It is no secret that the pilots of Allegiant Air work under some of the loosest and least crew-friendly work rules in the industry,” Giordano said. “It is also no secret that at the end of the year, the average Allegiant pilot’s income is significantly lower than ANY other airline operating similar equipment. When these facts are considered with the reality that Allegiant operates with the highest profit margins in the industry, we are left scratching our heads. We are confident that we can achieve compensation appropriately in line with our peer airlines without significantly detracting from Allegiant’s record profitability.”

Wow, I wouldn't have guessed you guys would unionize in a million years, never mind join ALPA. Well, if the above is true, I guess I publicly insert my foot in my mouth concerning some of my comments

 

[johnsonrod]

Watch some of the old Allegiant dorks try to derail it...

 

[fly4surf]

They will surely be trying, for who knows why, to the detriment of themselves and the guys fighting the good fight.

 

[Penguin46]

777,737,EMB's etc

Divide and Conquer my freind

I don't understand why all the US pilots don't push for a single union? Considering the loses incurred and the responsibility inherent to the job; there seems to be a legitimate need.

The only way to improve the QOL as an industry; is to collectively raise compensation to take away the competitive advantage from the lousy paying companies.

Otherwise, I see the divide and conquer mode of operation an effective competitive tool that all airlines should pursue for cost efficiency.

An airline puts much effort in securing the lowest cost for fuel; it is the same with labor. An RJ pilot with a few years of experience is perfectly qualified to sit in the right seat of a heavy. So if that positions pays just a bit more than an RJ, it would be a rational decision for that pilot to accept those terms.

Isn't the free market great?

 

[HalinTexas]

Can you say Gary Elmer is a tool.

To put it mildly.

He "retired" from ATA about 6 weeks prior to the shut down. He should be working for Tague at UAL.

I really don't know why this industry uses so many failed retreads in their management.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I don't understand why all the US pilots don't push for a single union??

What you should say is "Why don't all US pilots push for a UNION?" Because even in ALPA all we have is an Association of individual airline MECs. We don't have a union. If we had a real UNION we'd have:

1. Standardized pay rates. You want to operate a 757 in the US? Here's the 757 pay rate.

2. A National Seniority List. You get a number at your first Union airline. It is then yours for life. Acquisitions/merger SLIs are done strictly by DoH. Period, end of story. No arbitrators, no fences, NO WHINING.

3. Union Hall hiring. You need a pilot? You call the National Pilot Union hall and get the names of the 5 or 10 most senior pilots from the National Seniority List who are either unemployed or have made themselves available for work. You interview them. If none are acceptable, you call the National Pilot Union hall and get the next 10 names in seniority order.

4. Union negotiated privileges are NOT available to non-union people. You don't see non-Union electricians going down to the IBEW Hall and asking for a ride out to the jobsite do you? Non-Union pilots seem to think they have a right to ride the jumpseat, aided and abetted by "UNION" pilots who grant them access.

That's how REAL Unions operate.

 

[Ameriagle]

What you should say is "Why don't all US pilots push for a UNION?" Because even in ALPA all we have is an Association of individual airline MECs. We don't have a union. If we had a real UNION we'd have:

1. Standardized pay rates. You want to operate a 757 in the US? Here's the 757 pay rate.

2. A National Seniority List. You get a number at your first Union airline. It is then yours for life. Acquisitions/merger SLIs are done strictly by DoH. Period, end of story. No arbitrators, no fences, NO WHINING.

3. Union Hall hiring. You need a pilot? You call the National Pilot Union hall and get the names of the 5 or 10 most senior pilots from the National Seniority List who are either unemployed or have made themselves available for work. You interview them. If none are acceptable, you call the National Pilot Union hall and get the next 10 names in seniority order.

4. Union negotiated privileges are NOT available to non-union people. You don't see non-Union electricians going down to the IBEW Hall and asking for a ride out to the jobsite do you? Non-Union pilots seem to think they have a right to ride the jumpseat, aided and abetted by "UNION" pilots who grant them access.

That's how REAL Unions operate.

It's not a union negotiated privilege if it is not available to a union pilot hence the reciprocal agreement. Non union pilots have a right to whatever privilege is afforded them by the reciprocal agreement's in place at their carrier. You don't see union electricians getting rides from a non union electrician to the job site do you? Plenty of union pilots are riding in non union jumpseats everyday so maybe these are the pilots you should be making your case to. Convince them to give up their negotiated privileges and you might just have something.

 

[vtwo]

What you should say is "Why don't all US pilots push for a UNION?" Because even in ALPA all we have is an Association of individual airline MECs. We don't have a union. If we had a real UNION we'd have:

1. Standardized pay rates. You want to operate a 757 in the US? Here's the 757 pay rate.

2. A National Seniority List. You get a number at your first Union airline. It is then yours for life. Acquisitions/merger SLIs are done strictly by DoH. Period, end of story. No arbitrators, no fences, NO WHINING.

3. Union Hall hiring. You need a pilot? You call the National Pilot Union hall and get the names of the 5 or 10 most senior pilots from the National Seniority List who are either unemployed or have made themselves available for work. You interview them. If none are acceptable, you call the National Pilot Union hall and get the next 10 names in seniority order.

4. Union negotiated privileges are NOT available to non-union people. You don't see non-Union electricians going down to the IBEW Hall and asking for a ride out to the jobsite do you? Non-Union pilots seem to think they have a right to ride the jumpseat, aided and abetted by "UNION" pilots who grant them access.

That's how REAL Unions operate.

YOU HAVE WON THE AWARD.. perfect, simple and logical.
now how can we do it?

 

[Going2Baja]

Ditto...Nice brief Fubi!

 

[Nevets]

[FONT=&quot]AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]102ND REGULAR EXECUTIVE BOARD MEETING[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]September 9-10, 2008[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]SUBJECT[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]National Seniority Protocol[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SOURCE[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]UAL MEC[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BACKGROUND INFORMATION[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]See proposed resolution.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]PROPOSED RESOLUTION[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the Air Line Pilots Association has been at the forefront of pilot labor representation in the airline industry since 1931, and has consistently been the champion of safety protocols that assure our passengers have the safest transportation system possible, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the 77 year history of ALPA is replete with examples of bold decisions made by ALPA leaders in order to assure that measures, necessary to protect the economic bargaining rights and professional interests of its members, have been instituted and that the best interests of the profession have been secured, and, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS opportunities to make significant and enduring policy changes that enhance the professional opportunities of every ALPA member come along rarely and are often precipitated by industry destabilizing events like those brought to bear on ALPA members with The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978, the September 11th acts of war, the bankruptcy era, and the current manipulated inflation of the price of petroleum, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing), and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the fundamental principal of national seniority does not conflict with the current or future job prospects of pilots but instead extends a common system of advancement to be used at every ALPA carrier and bonds all ALPA pilots to the profession instead of to an individual airline; a national seniority list would assure a logical and rational adherence to a measurable, protected status of those pilots from a commonly defined starting point in their professional careers regardless of how many airlines may exist, regardless of the skill and economic acumen of the managements that run them, and regardless of the transient political influence of the day, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]WHEREAS the career security of any pilot who was able to transfer his seniority to another air carrier would liberate ALPA pilots and forever eliminate the ability of management to whipsaw or erode ALPA unity based on loss of job threats, economic fear or arbitrary merger awards, based on a perceived surviving carrier analogy, thus enabling ALPA to negotiate wages and work rules at all airlines based on the pilots’ collective evaluation of their true contribution and economic value to an air carrier,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Executive Board acknowledges this historic and momentous opportunity in time when several key air carrier contract amendable dates are so closely aligned, and which could be coordinated as part of this undertaking, that will launch a historic, new career security protocol for all ALPA pilots and by design, realign the true interests and career expectations of every pilot represented by ALPA both now and in the future, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the development of a national seniority protocol be assigned to a select National Seniority Committee (NSC) consisting of the President of ALPA; one pilot from each represented pilot group within group A, to be appointed by the Master Chairman of each MEC of the group; and one pilot representing each group designation: B1, B2, B3, B4 and C, each of whom shall be appointed by a consensus of the MEC Master Chairmen from each of the pilot groups represented within a classification; for a total of 11 members, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the National Seniority Committee will establish a single national seniority protocol that will be used to establish two separate lists reflecting the Canadian ALPA pilots and the United States ALPA pilots, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the protocol for an ALPA national seniority list will be developed by the NSC under a rigid timeline with a specific date for completion in 2009, and using a simple and transparent methodology that defines a starting point common to all professional air line pilots from which all seniority benefits and longevity will derive, and,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that without discrimination to any pilot, the NSC will set and fix a methodology recognizing “benchmarks of career achievement” with associated “exercise rights” in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon completion of the protocol, the NSC will present a single, unified explanation of the developed protocol to all ALPA members, and all other represented professional pilot groups, using all available communication tools before preferably submitting the NSC proposal for ALPA-wide membership ratification, Roll Call by the governing body, or the applicable rules as stipulated in the ALPA Constitution and By Laws, and[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that upon adoption as ALPA policy by the proper authorizing internal ALPA mechanisms, the national seniority protocol will be enforced as of that date and no ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement will be signed by the President of the Association without full inclusion of this policy as a part thereof.[/FONT]

 

[Fubijaakr]

It's not a union negotiated privilege...

Tell that to the DAL pilots who, for YEARS, didn't even have access to their own jumpseat. How did they get it? They gave up something in their contract for it. That's a UNION NEGOTIATED privilege.

UNION airlines should ONLY have recips with other UNION airlines. And shame on Union pilots who ask favors of people who are undercutting our contracts.

 

[chperplt]

UNION airlines should ONLY have recips with other UNION airlines. And shame on Union pilots who ask favors of people who are undercutting our contracts.

Tell that to the Delta, Fed Ex, US Air, Hawaiian Airlines, and oh.. can't forget, Alaska folks I've carried on my non union jumpseat over the past month. I don't think your views are shared by the majority.

...and shame on you for wasting your life away bitching at me for undercutting your contract. Enjoy your life a little more and go bitch at your negotiating committee if you're not happy with your contract.. I know... It's easier to bitch at me for all the industries problems.

 

[Fubijaakr]

There are some people who won't compromise their integrity for a free ride. You just won't find any of them on YOUR jumpseat.