Allegiant seeks B757s, may create alter-ego airline

[On Your Six]

Deja Vu....

Haven't we seen this before out of Las Vegas? Wasn't it called NATIONAL AIRLINES in the latter 1990s? Just ask the CEO Conway (ex America West) how that went...

 

[Scope out RJ's]

-Classy, General-

-Now, go back to whatever gay troll things you were up to...

Your constant of the General and "gay," is quite disturbing. Do your captains know about you? Or do you just surprise them when you jump into that cozy rj "cock"pit!

 

[VxClimb]

Haven't we seen this before out of Las Vegas? Wasn't it called NATIONAL AIRLINES in the latter 1990s? Just ask the CEO Conway (ex America West) how that went...

Funny you should bring that up.................


LAS VEGAS--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 18, 2003

Allegiant AirAllegiant Air is an American low fare airline, owned by Allegiant Travel Co. (NASDAQ: ALGT), headquartered in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA. The airline operates scheduled and charter flights from focus cities at Las Vegas' McCarran International Airport, Orlando Sanford
..... Click the link for more information. today announced that James R. Carr has joined the Las Vegas-based airline as Vice President, Operations.

In this newly created position, Carr is responsible for management of the airline's flight operations, crews, and crew training and dispatch functions. Carr most recently served as Senior Vice President, Operations at National Airlines. He had also previously served as Vice President, Flight Operations for America West AirlinesAmerica West Airlines was one of the United States' ten major airlines. The airline was based in Tempe, Arizona, and is now a part of US Airways Group.

At the time of its integration into US Airways, the airline maintained two hubs, one at Phoenix Sky Harbor International
..... Click the link for more information..

"Jim brings to Allegiant Air an outstanding record of airline operations managementOperations management is an area of business that is concerned with the production of goods and services, and involves the responsibility of ensuring that business operations are efficient and effective.
..... Click the link for more information. experience, and we are very pleased that he has joined our company in this key role," said Maurice J. Gallagher, Allegiant chairman. "His leadership will help our company continue to meet the highest standards of safety, reliability and passenger comfort in our daily flight operations."

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Alleg...rr+as+VP,+Operations;+Industry...-a0107899683

 

[chperplt]

Funny you should bring that up.................

What's your point? A nearly 6 year old article??

 

[VxClimb]

What's your point? A nearly 6 year old article??

National Airlines, America West, James Carr, Management, Allegiant. Just pointing out some similarities....sounds like someone is on edge.

 

[fly4surf]

And the voice that brought you
"if you want a retirement flip houses"
& my favorite.....
"if you want to fly the 757 you can apply there"

Welcome to Allegiant.
Please make it right and get the support required for a pilot group.

 

[HalinTexas]

It won't be with ATA's cert. That is gone.

SWA bought it to get LGA gates/slots. ETOPS was not in the offing, so there's no certification to go with it. No airplanes, either.

It took AK 22 months to get ETOPS cert. on their B737's. Count on it taking a similar amount of time for Allegiant.

 

[ualdriver]

I'm not getting the whole premise here--can someone please explain? If there is no union, and Gallagher claims that he can impose whatever pay rates he pleases, then why the need for the additional operating certificate? Why not just put the 75s on the Allegiant certificate and establish MD-80 pay rates for them? I realize that this could galvanize a unionization drive, but wouldn't setting up an alter ego do the same?

Divide and Conquer my freind

Yup. Gallagher knows that no matter what he does, he's going to piss off his pilots, possibly getting even a weak group like these guys to unionize. If he gets the 757 on a separate certificate, he can set up a whipsaw. That way, if the Allegiant pilots unionize and ask for something ridiculous like industry standard wages or a retirement, he can just threaten that the MD-80 guys are "too expensive" and move the flying to the opposite certificate.

The guys on the 757 side will be happy and content, with their shiny new 757's and wouldn't dare "tip the apple cart" to ruin their good deal on their side of the fence by doing something stupid like unionizing or complaining. They'll have fast growth and upgrades, and will care less about what is happening to their MD-80 brethren. These 757 pilots will also be on forums like flightinfo.com, vigorously defending their low pay rates just as the Allegiant MD-80 pilots have done for years. Expect to hear phrases like "we're just starting out," and "we only have xx airplanes, how can we affect wages elsewhere," and, my personal favorite, "we have a great relationship with management."

In my opinion, the Allegiant pilots are now in a serious pickle, being screwed no matter they do. Had they organized years ago when they should have, they would have at least been able to put up an organized front from the beginning and perhaps gotten wording in their contract that would have prevented a separate certificate. Would any Virgin America guys like to comment on what's unfolding at Allegiant?

 

[UALjan15]

Thanks, ualdriver.....great explanation. If he succeeds, it will make a nice blueprint for startup management industry-wide. Makes me ill...

 

[johnsonrod]

Yup. Gallagher knows that no matter what he does, he's going to piss off his pilots, possibly getting even a weak group like these guys to unionize. If he gets the 757 on a separate certificate, he can set up a whipsaw. That way, if the Allegiant pilots unionize and ask for something ridiculous like industry standard wages or a retirement, he can just threaten that the MD-80 guys are "too expensive" and move the flying to the opposite certificate.

The guys on the 757 side will be happy and content, with their shiny new 757's and wouldn't dare "tip the apple cart" to ruin their good deal on their side of the fence by doing something stupid like unionizing or complaining. They'll have fast growth and upgrades, and will care less about what is happening to their MD-80 brethren. These 757 pilots will also be on forums like flightinfo.com, vigorously defending their low pay rates just as the Allegiant MD-80 pilots have done for years. Expect to hear phrases like "we're just starting out," and "we only have xx airplanes, how can we affect wages elsewhere," and, my personal favorite, "we have a great relationship with management."

In my opinion, the Allegiant pilots are now in a serious pickle, being screwed no matter they do. Had they organized years ago when they should have, they would have at least been able to put up an organized front from the beginning and perhaps gotten wording in their contract that would have prevented a separate certificate. Would any Virgin America guys like to comment on what's unfolding at Allegiant?

Good review. That said, the MD80 is not a 757. I doubt you will see 757s operating on the LAX-DSM, LAS-ICT or SFB-BGR routes. The 757 will be used for different missions I would think (i.e., Hawaii after ETOPS is achieved down the road). I don't see as much whipsaw potential because an MD80 can't necessarily do 757 missions - they would have to be relatively short-haul to provide whipsaw potential. Do you think you would see 757s flying the LAS-DSM or IWA-MSO flights? I can see 757s operating out of LAX, LAX and SFB due to large population bases.

Should be interesting to watch. Any prediction on when we might start seeing the 757s? Any date estimates yet? As early as 2010?

 

[IAHERJ]

Hopefully when Hell freezes over....

 

[ualdriver]

I don't see as much whipsaw potential because an MD80 can't necessarily do 757 missions - they would have to be relatively short-haul to provide whipsaw potential. Do you think you would see 757s flying the LAS-DSM or IWA-MSO flights? I can see 757s operating out of LAX, LAX and SFB due to large population bases.

I'd have to disagree with that. There's HUGE whipsaw potential. It doesn't matter that they have different missions. He can just move aircraft between certificates and instead of Joe Smith airline passenger buying a ticket between LAS and DSM on Allegiant Travel Company with its "expensive" MD80 pilots, they buy the ticket on Allegiant Travel Happy Pilot Company, a limited liability subsidiary of Allegiant Travel Company with 757's and a growing fleet of recently transferred MD-80's. The passenger doesn't care, they just want cheap tickets. The CEO doesn't care, the money goes into his pocket no matter what branch of the holding company gets the business. The only people that care are the pilots.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Good review. That said, the MD80 is not a 757. I doubt you will see 757s operating on the LAX-DSM, LAS-ICT or SFB-BGR routes. The 757 will be used for different missions I would think (i.e., Hawaii after ETOPS is achieved down the road). I don't see as much whipsaw potential because an MD80 can't necessarily do 757 missions - they would have to be relatively short-haul to provide whipsaw potential. Do you think you would see 757s flying the LAS-DSM or IWA-MSO flights? I can see 757s operating out of LAX, LAX and SFB due to large population bases.

Should be interesting to watch. Any prediction on when we might start seeing the 757s? Any date estimates yet? As early as 2010?[/QUOTE]

Not sure when they might add 757s, don't work there. But just want to add, that the 'Pace Airline' certificate is still out there, operating with one 757 on the certif. (Mark Cuban's 75), its For sale, and all ready to go. If they buy that certificate, or another like it, pretty much a 'turnkey' operation, so can happen really quick.

Also, on a side note, while it is a good market for used airliners, and there are 75s out there; there are not a lot of good 757s out there available; i.e. with good cycles remaining before aging a/c, ETOPs equip/certif. and good engines (as the RR powered a/c are still the better a/c for payload/range, etc).

Anyway, pilots have been 'rolling over' for management for YEARS now, that's why they will probably get what they want. One BIG reason why we (the pilots/industry) is in the situation it is today. Look at all of the pilots (especially low time pilots) who would/will beat down the door of ALGT, just to get into a Big Jet (MD-80), and a 'quick upgrade' and not really care about pay, scope, etc.

You can talk all you want about 'management' but 'WE' have been our own worst enemy for quite a few years now. Not sure when it is going to change.

For what its worth.

Also, before anyone decides to 'slam' me, at least want to say; that many Many times, been furloughed, and have chose to remain unemployed, or did other things, rather than work for $hit pay, and/or sign 'training contracts' etc. Turned down offers that I thought were 'not worth it' but.......

PD

 

[ualdriver]

For what its worth.

Also, before anyone decides to 'slam' me, at least want to say; that many Many times, been furloughed, and have chose to remain unemployed, or did other things, rather than work for $hit pay, and/or sign 'training contracts' etc. Turned down offers that I thought were 'not worth it' but.......

PD

I think that is worth a lot. I plan on doing the same thing if United fails, and I'm not independently wealthy or anything. I also can't tell you how many furloughees have told us remaining at my airline to "hold the line" here at my job, then later tell me how they have apps. in with Virgin America, for example. Apparently some feel that those of us remaining at our jobs have to put our financial health at risk by burning the place down if necessary during contract negotiations (which many of us are pissed off enough to do), but aren't willing to take the same financial risk themselves with their choice of employment. Oh well.

 

[The Victors]

Yup. Gallagher knows that no matter what he does, he's going to piss off his pilots, possibly getting even a weak group like these guys to unionize. If he gets the 757 on a separate certificate, he can set up a whipsaw. That way, if the Allegiant pilots unionize and ask for something ridiculous like industry standard wages or a retirement, he can just threaten that the MD-80 guys are "too expensive" and move the flying to the opposite certificate.

The guys on the 757 side will be happy and content, with their shiny new 757's and wouldn't dare "tip the apple cart" to ruin their good deal on their side of the fence by doing something stupid like unionizing or complaining. They'll have fast growth and upgrades, and will care less about what is happening to their MD-80 brethren. These 757 pilots will also be on forums like flightinfo.com, vigorously defending their low pay rates just as the Allegiant MD-80 pilots have done for years. Expect to hear phrases like "we're just starting out," and "we only have xx airplanes, how can we affect wages elsewhere," and, my personal favorite, "we have a great relationship with management."

In my opinion, the Allegiant pilots are now in a serious pickle, being screwed no matter they do. Had they organized years ago when they should have, they would have at least been able to put up an organized front from the beginning and perhaps gotten wording in their contract that would have prevented a separate certificate. Would any Virgin America guys like to comment on what's unfolding at Allegiant?

You are exactly correct. This is the price we all pay with these guys working for garbage wages. They never "get it" until it comes around. Well it's coming around for the allegiant kids and hopefully it comes around for VA soon too.