All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[CRJ200FO]

Labor is not the only problem.

But if UAL, for example, could cut an average of $50k per pilot per year, that would equate to $500 Million (10,000 pilots) saved per year...make some cuts with other labor groups and guess what, now you're really saving some money.

$500 Million is no chump change!

A $50,000 savings per pilot equates to about a $35,000 change in salary. So, a pilot making $185,000 now makes $150,000 after the change...BIG DEAL!

JetPilot500

Would you listen to yourself for a moment? You are saying that losing $35,000 is no "BIG DEALl" How would you like it if your employer told you that he was going to give you a 25% pay cut because profits had dropped and he didn't want to reduce his own salary or go about the trouble of re-thinking his business model that is so obviously flawed? That's what we're talking about here! Pilot's salaries did not cause these problems, so why should they be cut to solve the problems? The root cause of the problem needs to be addressed. You admit in your post that labor is not the cause of the problem, but you want them to give up their hard earned money to fix it. There is no logic in that.

 

[jon210]

crj200fo,
I thought you just said a couple of posts earlier that labor costs were not the problem. Now you are saying that the LCC's are surviving because of low labor costs and it will catch up with them when they have to start paying for retirements. I hope the LCC's are not thinking the same thing, it won't be long before no one has a retirement plan.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Just as labor costs are not the real problem with the major's, labor costs are also not the only reason SWA and other LCC's are doing well.

There is always more to look at in the picture. The LCC's do not face the same expenses as UAL, DAL, NWA, and so on.

However, these major carriers could most likely turn a profit if many changes were made, starting with management, ten labor cost reduction and so on.

Like Jetpilot pointed out, a lot of money could be saved by a reduction in pilot salaries, it would only be fair then to also impose a reduction in Mngt. Salaries...then that much more could be saved.

I would agree that pilot salaries could be reduced to help the problem if the other changes were also implimented. But mgmt never does that. They say that they want the concessions now, and they'll worry about everything else later.

Example: In the early '80s EAL was losing money like crazy. Mgmt went to labor time after time for concessions and promised that they would later impliment other cost saving ideas. But guess what? Frank Boreman never did any of the other things. And when the first few pay cuts for the pilots and mechanics didn't solve the problem (because they never do), then he came back for more concessions. This is where the BOHICA pins and stickers that the pilots had came from: "Bend Over, Here It Comes Again."

Mgmt is never willing to do anything other than cut pay to solve problems. And they never take pay cuts themselves, it's always the pilots, FA's, and mechanics that get screwed. Need another example?

Mesaba Aviation: 50 pilots were recently furloughed. Did mgmt take a pay cut? Of course not. Mgmt decided to buy Big Sky airlines and give their CEO a $1.6 million dollar bonus for the year. Why doesn't mgmt have to take cuts when we do?

I think it's time you learn from history. Concessions have never helped save an airline from bankruptcy and they never will. It's going to take a lot more than that.

 

[banned username 2]

Example: In the early '80s EAL was losing money like crazy. Mgmt went to labor time after time for concessions and promised that they would later impliment other cost saving ideas.

You were born in 1982, and you remember this??? HHmmm..

But guess what? Frank Boreman never did any of the other things.

No YOU guess what... Frank Borman was an Astronaut (Commander of Apollo 8), not the CEO of EAL when it failed... I THINK you mean your buddy Frank Lorenzo who drove it into the ground!

 

[CRJ200FO]

You were born in 1982, and you remember this??? HHmmm..






No YOU guess what... Frank Borman was an Astronaut (Commander of Apollo 8), not the CEO of EAL... I THINK you mean your buddy Frank Lorenzo!

Better stick to what you know...

A wise man once said: "Better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt..."

Words to live by!

You have just displayed your own ignorance very well. Frank Borman was Commander of Apollo 8 AND he later became CEO of EAL. I believe he took this position in the mid 70's. He sold it to Frank LORENZO (in 1983 I believe) because the unions refused to give him yet more concessions and he saw his airline beginning to fail. Frank Lorenzo later drove EAL into the ground, but Borman started the whole mess with his p*ss-poor mgmt techniques. Look it up. There are many books on the subject.

And a little tip: the next time you call somebody a fool, you better check the facts a little better first, lest you make yourself look more the fool.

 

[banned username 2]

Lorenzo was the one who drove it into the ground... and parted it out....

 

[DCitrus9]

jetpilot"I bet to differ. In fact, I would guess that 30 years ago, a 747 Captain was probally making around $85,000...that was a ton of money back in 1972. If that is the case, today he should be making $206,000 based on average inflation...not $320,000 which is what UAL pays (before concession). That far exceeds the average inflation rate...by about 50%.

Your "guess" is way off. A study published showed the actual buying power of airline pilots had decreased over the last 30 years. It compared several occupations and the salary trend. I will try to find the article and post it, or maybe someone else has a copy...

 

[JetPilot500]

I beg to differ. In fact, I would guess that 30 years ago, a 747 Captain was probally making around $85,000...that was a ton of money back in 1972. If that is the case, today he should be making $206,000 based on average inflation...not $320,000 which is what UAL pays (before concession). That far exceeds the average inflation rate...by about 50%.

Your "guess" is way off. A study published showed the actual buying power of airline pilots had decreased over the last 30 years. It compared several occupations and the salary trend. I will try to find the article and post it, or maybe someone else has a copy...

Not to start a flame war with you DCitrus9, but I'll bet the source of your study came from ALPA or Kit Darby or some souce like that. Here is the Math:

$85,000 + 3.0% Annual Inflation over 30 yrs = $206,000
$85,000 + 4.5% Annual Inflation over 30 yrs = $320,000

So to get from 30 Years ago to today, the top end major airline payscales have increased 4.5% per year annually. This is far higher than the average working man. Don't beleive me here is the math:

$20,000 + 3.0% Annual Inflation over 30 yrs = $48,500

The average working man in 1972 was making around $20,000 per year. Now he's getting around $45-50,000. There is your 3% annual inflation.

Besides, everyones buying power is going down. Increased taxes, heath and insurance cost are hurting everyone.

JetPilot500

 

[JetPilot500]

Would you listen to yourself for a moment?

How about you listen to yourself for a moment. You say that SWA is only successful due to low labor costs. Then you say that high labor costs are not an issue at the Big Airlines? What's it gonna be.

The point is this: If the comany can find a way to save $500M here and $500M there and another $500M over there, it all adds up to at least break-even in hard times and maybe even profitability. You are very right in saying that labor is not the only problem.

If you think that the airlines are not finding other ways to save money then you are blind.

I'll say it again, retirement fund money and 401k money do not come out of the same pot as daily operating money. Those funds are separate. Therefore it doesn't matter if 1 guy retires or 1000 guys retire.

I really think you need to put your book, "Flying the Line" down for a while. Those books are one sided and tell about a different time. Get with the times and think a little for yourself.

JetPilot500

 

[CRJ200FO]

I really think you need to put your book, "Flying the Line" down for a while. Those books are one sided and tell about a different time. Get with the times and think a little for yourself.

JetPilot500

Actually, Flying the Line was written from an objective viewpoint. It is not one-sided. ALPA did not write the books, they just made themselves available for interviews. The books were written by an independent author/professor.

And as for the numbers you gave for pilot's salaries from 30 years ago. Citrus was not referring to the inflation being wrong. He was referring to your belief that a 747 CA was only making 85,000 dollars. That figure is very questionable.

 

[enigma]

Guys & Gals,

If you're not familiar with it, this bill is an attempt to circumvent the Railway Labor Act. The legislation would impose “last offer” baseball style binding arbitration on contract negotiations in the airline industry, effectively destroying airline labor’s ability to negotiate a fair contract.

F18, The last time I checked baseball players have done exceptionally well under this system. The arbitrator usually chooses the player over management. A-Rod got 252 mil, from the the same team that made Nolan Ryan the first million dollar player less than twenty years ago. All under the "last offer" system.

regards,
8N

 

[80drvr]

A-Rod's 252 million dollar deal was the result of free agency, not "baseball style arbitration". I'm sure he was blown away when the owner, Hicks, made this offer of his own volition. Binding "baseball style" arbitration is not used to determine anything in the baseball players contract other than the salary of those players in years 2-5 who are not yet eligible for free agency.

If the airlines want to use this to determine the salaries of pilots in years 2-5, then go for it. But to apply it to a whole CBA in a business as complicated as this is nuts.

 

[goldentrout]

CRJ200 and company

The reason pilot's salaries were so high before deregulation was that the airlines were being subsidized by the government.

Now, the airlines have to compete in the free market just like Microsoft, Safeway, Ford, etc.

That's the American way...free market capitalism...no subsidizing of private industry. Businesses fail or succeed based on the demand for their product and their ability to deliver it at a price where the company can turn a profit.

SWA, Jet Blue, Frontier, Air Tran, Fractional ownership and 50/70/90 seat RJs are new tools available to airline managers and entreprenuers. They are, and will revolutionize the air travel industry. This market revolution is happening all around us today as we speak.

1. UAL/DAL/NWA/US Air are parking hundreds of big planes, and buying hundreds or RJs.

2. SWA/Jet Blue/Frontier/Comair/ASA/ACA and other regionals and fractionals are hiring by the thousands...UAL/DAL/NWA/US Air are furloughing by the thousands.

3. Ticket prices are down, and Jet Blue/Frontier/AirTran/SWA are making money at those ticket prices. UAL/DAL/NWA/US Air are losing money by the billions. The product offered buy UAL/DAL/NWA/US Air is not competitive...if it was, the consumers would choose them more often over their competitors.

If you can't see it happening around you...then you and an ostrich must have much in common. (not meant to be an insult, but the metaphor was just too tough to resist).

 

[MetroSheriff]

OMFG!!!!

I just got done reading this thread start to finish. Wow!!! I have met a few know-it-all, pseudo-salty-dog, Ernie K. Gann wannabes in the last few years. But CRJ200FO, hands down wins the prize.

A Gulfsteam whizkid beating on SWA. WOW!

Born in 82 and giving out the history lessons. WOW!

Lecturing everyone on ALPA with how many years of ALPA experience? WOW!

That is one salty ol' dog there guys. Most of this thread is comical. I wonder if he is like this in the cockpit.

I'd MUCH rather spend a month with TurboS7, this CRJ200 dude would drive me NUTS (pun intended, get it???).

Nothing personal CRJ, you are unreal though.

 

[MetroSheriff]

What good service are you referring to? I've never met anyone that has received good service on a SWA flight. The only reason people continue to go to SWA is because they will sell tickets for unreasonably low prices. Don't delude yourself into thinking that people fly on SWA for good service. Explain to me how SWA provides better service than the real majors.

Their employees smile not infrequently. That goes a long way in my book.

There are not many airlines that do much more than huck a bag a peanuts and a demitase of flat soda at you these days anyhow. Service sucks. It's an airline, not a Royal Carribean cruise. The least they can do is smile, thank you for your patronage, and get you to your destination on time. It's more than most of the majors are able do these days.