All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[chase]

To clarify

All major airlines managements have supported this bill. For the record, SWA has put out a statement that it is taking a neutral position & is not a party to pushing this bill before congress. The statement said the company had good relations with it's employee groups & didn't feel this bill was necessary. Not every airline company is in support of this legislation, for those who are interested.

For ancedotal info though this type of negotiation process was discussed among many pilots at SWA. It was the thinking that in the case for SWA pilots this method of solving any impasse would eventually be favorable to the pilots. Here's the logic. Contracts have traditionally been negotiated upon the assumption of what other carriers were paying their pilots. If an arbitrator was to look at what other pilots were making, look at the productivity of our group, look at the profitability of the company as compared to others, the assumption leads one to believe if a company offer wasn't industry leading & the pilot offer was close to that or at that, it would be hard for a "take or leave" type arbitrator to not rule in the favor of the pilots. So in the case of the SWA pilot group the passage of this law "might" be good for the pilot group of SWA. Just one person's opinion, not to be used to take one side or the other of the bill. Just one perspective from one SWA pilot.

cheers,

 

[cocknbull]

I don't know much about this bill that the senate wants to purpose so please correct me if I am wrong.

Pilots are absolutely worth the money. Pilots have an extremely stressful job with high responsabilty. Flying reqiures great skill and intelligence. Pilots should be compensated like doctors.

If you have been at your airline long enough to bid a 14 hour line, good for you. Management should shoot scheduling not the pilot.

I do realize that mangement needs to cut cost, but I think the majority of pilots are underpaid. Many guys at my level work for nothing, well almost nothing in the hopes of one day making it to a major. The problem is if we continue to work for nothing there will be no majors. The regionals will be too profitable. I hope the unions can fight to bring the standard of living in the regionals up.

I hope they pass a bill that will prevent baggage handlers from forcing UAL or DAL into paying them 25$ an hour. It amazes me when an unskilled laborer can make more the many pilots. Call me an arrogant pilot ,that can't spell, but I think that is rediculous.
If you want to cut wages, cut the guy who throws bags and fuels planes. Work 15 minutes off 45 minutes. that sounds like a great gig. The reason I said unskilled instead of un educated workers is because any one who can negotiate this deal is brilliant.

I also think all these landing fees, ramp fees and security fees the airlines pay is dumn too. In my opinion air travel is a negative claim right. Meaning it is needed for the security of the country and therefore should be backed by tax dollars. A positive claim right would be something like wellfare wich we pay taxes on but isn't really needed for national security. For the same reasons we don't pay to drive on most highways I don't think the airlines should pay to land at an airport.

Guys I could be way of base, but hey I am rookie if you agree great. If not let me know whats up so I can be educated.
Thanks

 

[2000flyer]

Well, lets see. I posted an honest opinion, my opinion, on a subject. At no time did I intend or try to offend. Just adding a thought to the thought process.

In doing so I have been accused of "having a bad marriage", "no life outside of my job", and now I'm "naive, ignorant and self promoting".

So, where or when did I ever say that airline pilots don't change vacations? When did I ever say and airline pilot wasn't worth every cent he/she earns? When, EXACTLY, did I say ANYTHING negative about airline pilot's in general? Yes, I did share a relative's story about bidding. Do I blame him? Is he less of a pilot for using the system given him? Of course not. Nothing I've said here was a detractor to an airline pilot. It was, and should still be, a discussion on the union.

Peeps...you make some great points in your comments. Yes, I'm an outsider looking in when it comes to airline unions. However, rather than make a personal attack on your opinions, I take them and I learn from them. Besides, when we talk about the jobs we love, aren't we always self promoting?

So, to those that provided insight and honesty in your opinions, I say thank you. I have learned much, despite the personal jabs. And to many a poster's delight, I shall retire to put the flames out on the second and third degree burns and make this my last post on this subject.

Unless you haven't noticed, I think of us ALL as professionals who are blessed with the ability to do what we love. Pro to unions, or con, we are all incredibly lucky individuals.

Good day,

2000Flyer

 

[Seeniner]

I haven't read the entire bill, but have been told that the bill applies to PAY only...that it does NOT apply to work rules, benefits, etc. Anyone know about the specifics?

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Live free....

The problem with your argument is once you join a major, you can't really "take all your marbles and go home". Your seniority system locks you into to one carrier for the duration, unless you are willing to suffer huge pay cuts.

If you work for Boeing, and decide to leave, Lockeed or Northrop may hire you. Odds are your salary will be close to what you had at your previous company.

...all those jobs allow mobility between companies.

Now...supposed you are a United FO just furloughed. Do you really want to start over at UPS, or do you wait it out 3 years and hope thinks recover? Every time you start over you take a huge financial penalty.

Unfortunately, in our job, we are "stuck" with our company for a while...

The funny thing about this is the reason you can not get the pay of a 20 year Capt if you switch companies is BECAUSE of the UNIONS. That is how UNION senority works. So if you want to be paid like a doctor/lawyer/etc you have to earn the revenue for the company or Unionize like the UAW.

It seems to me many unions with leadership outside the rank and file (AFL-CIO, UAW, etc) don't give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about the company or the employees all they care about is dues


My dad was a member of a Union PATCO and it got him no pension and no job after 19 years of military/civil service...

so I am a little biased.

I like to compete as an individual, cause I am talented and intelligent, but I can not negotiate at a unionized company it is take it or leave it.

True senority has its benefits, like no back stabbing or kiss-ups.

I just think a union can also kill the goose laying the employees golden eggs.

Cheers

 

[AlbieF15]

Live free,

All good points. One complaint frequently heard about ALPA is that is protects Captains interests more than new hires, as that is where the dues come from. Of course...the other side is the Captains will tell you they are protecting the job FOR YOU when it is your turn...all depends on where you sit at the time I guess.

Right now, with a 4000+ number at FDX, I would like to think my superior experience, breeding, and and talent mean I could quickly skip ahead of a couple thousand other pilots and be a widebody FO . (Obviously tongue in cheek...dont' flame me!) However, I am glad to have about 200 others below me so I don't have to be on reserve, and I'm quite sure I deserve to be ahead of all them....even those who for whatever reason interviewed with me but ended up 1 class later. (Again...this is sarcasm!). It still amazes me that getting in one stack of interviews verses another month's can have such ramifications...this seniority thing is all new for us military guys...

As a new guy...I hate seniority systems. But every day I like it a little better... I'm sure a few years from now I will LOVE it. I really think one of the biggest adjustments from being a military guy and "working" assignments is adjusting to the fact I will be an FE until the company grows or enough guys retire to allow me a shot at being an FO. No extra working at the squadron, competing for awards, or just plain old begging or brown nosing make things happen any faster in the seniority system--which is a double edged sword because those very facts also have a lot of appeal as well. Do your job...stay out of trouble..and in time you can move on to better things. Churchill used to say "Democracy is the worst form of government, until you look at the alternatives..." I imagine the same could be said for seniority. You wouldn't want your next promotion at your major to be based on how many extra nights away from home you would suck up, or days of reserve without pay you would take...or how many safety corners you could cut to save costs...so I guess I'll just have to keep "plumbing" with a smile and wait my turn for window seat.

Fly safe

 

[radiofly er]

Never settle for less

2000flyer, I understand where you're coming from, although I never flew executively for anybody I'm glad I didn't, but I did fly with many of them. It was sad when they were trying to carry my luggage, or clean the plane. Call it kindness, kissin ass or whatever, this is not our job, our job is to fly an airplane safely and this is what unions try to tell those rich CEO's. Stop this bill..................fast!

 

[ivauir]

For Seeniner and other seekers of truth

Official gov web site for bill


From my semi-literate reading of the complete bill found at the above address it DOES apply to work rules. I am asking McCain to reconsider and to include labor in his solution to what is an outdated and cumbersome system.

 

[68pilot]

Anyone who thinks that Unions are bad, and that we should just accept what the market will bear is really out of touch or just plain ignorant. Do a little research about the NWA-Mesaba-Pinnacle-Bigsky debacle any write back. If you think there aren't a hundred wannabees who are willing to undercut you to take your job, you have a lot to learn about the Airline industry. The companies are more than willing to have you work for nothing, and if we don't stick together, that is exactly what our cereers will be worth.

I'm not kidding about the NWA,XJ,9E,BS thing. It is enough to make you sick.

Gotta Go, informational picketing is bright and early tomorrow, and I've gotta go shine my shoes.

 

[PA-44Typed]

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