All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[F18-FDX]

Lots of mud being thrown back and forth here, but let's get back to the point - If you're not in favor of this bill, PLEASE take the few minutes to be heard and DON'T FORGET to pass it on to crewmembers on the line.

 

[active_herk]

Just a quick question to those who think airline pilots are overpaid. If my company generates $18 billion in yearly revenues due to the work I provide, should I get paid minimum wage so that the CEOs can make an even greater profit?

 

[Ty Webb]

Well, it seems my comments have gone farther to anger than just express my opion.

Ty, I believe you and I interviewed at the same time at your employer...if I remember correctly. I was hired at the same time and chose to remain at my present employer.

Uh, no, it's not possible, because the day I interviewed, I was the only non-121 pilot, and I stayed in contact with the guys from my interview group.

Your remarks were judgemental and inflammatory; they basically indicated that we (pilots working under union contracts) were somehow getting something better than what we deserved, and that employers should be free to change rules as they see fit, and if we didn;t like it, we could leave and start over somewhere else.

When I worked in corporate flight departments, promotions were usually given to the guys who were willing to do things that the other pilots weren;t willing to do . . . . therefore encouraging unsafe practices such as going in wx that others wouldn;t, carrying maintenance problems, etc., giving up your hard-earned days off . . . . just keep the customer happy, and they'll always ask for you . . . . . Often, those guys actually got to become the Chief Pilot, where they could set the "unspoken rules" that the others would follow, and if you weren;t willing to do those things, you got the unpleasant assignments, or let go.

Now imagine the above scenario, with 6000 pilots, some of which would be willing to do anything for a leg up on the next guy. That is why we have contracts. That is why we have work rules, and that is why we have seniority and longevity. That is why we have a minimum amount of pay per day worked. Need I go on?

Maybe you aren;t "that guy" in the type of flight department I outlined above, but your post indicated the same type of philosophy/attitude.

Rest assured, I earn every penny I make. And, when I make Captain, and am sitting on reserve for 18 days a month, (and only flying 17 HOURS that month) that I will definitely be earning a full month's paycheck, whether you understand it or not.

 

[2000flyer]

Ty,

I apologize if my opinions were "judgmental or inflamatory". They certainly weren't meant to be directed toward the pilot, but rather the union. I guess I should have better phrased them .

You infer that we have to suck up and kiss a## to get ahead in the corporate world, and while that may be true at some departments, it's not where I work. I would be subject to retribution or worse yet, to be released, if I took risks while flying (ie busting mins to get the passengers to destination). Promotions are based on seniority and, yes, hard work. However, if shifting my vacation to accomodate my company's need is whats required, I'd gladly do so.

I don't agree with the premise that the "company can change rules at anytime". I also believe it doesn't always take a union to provide that type of protection.

After checking, I didn't interview with you. Sorry for the mix-up. I do remember we did exchange information on the interview process at one time or another. Thats what makes this board so enjoyable, the free exchange of information and ideas, whether we see eye to eye or not.

Take care,

2000Flyer

 

[peepsmover]

"Yassuh Boss"

2000Flyer,

Unions have problems just like any institution. Still, unions as a whole have not only benefitted their union members but society as a whole, with many concepts like weekends, health benefits, vacations, workers safety, retirement plans, disability plans, and most importantly the elimination of child labor. Certainly these are benefits even the staunchest critics of unions would be unwilling to relinquish, yet paradoxically unwilling to give credit where credit is due.

Now, I ask you, what could be more American than negotiating your personal worth, with a company, rather than settling with a serf-like mentality of "Yassuh'Boss" on whatever the Boss wanted to give you? The company simply does not hand over those union pay scales or benefits, they are earned, and they are earned by the collective power of the membership who, like the members before possess the courage to risk their livlihood to obtain said benefits.

So you can certainly criticize the union's rules, benefits, and pay scales, but I'd be more than happy to help you learn the power of collective bargaining, it is really a beautiful concept, mired more in capitalism than any other model, because all contracts are malleable to reflect the economic situation, that fact has and never will change. Oh, but ya gotta be willing to risk it all...think you can do that? You are familiar with the element, courage, right? I know its a big step but its part of the price of staying in the dance.

In fact, unions have been too successful. Meaning that the employees walked and the beancounters figured that replacing the skilled workforce would far exceed the costs of giving so they reached a new agreement on the contract. This why corporate America is already seeking to further stack the deck against us. Because they cannot win against labor in the free market. Binding aribtiration? Why not let those corporate oafs have their salaries determined by binding arbitration too; how anti-free market is that? Clue: Binding arbitration is a requirement for most insurance policy holders. Do you think that corporate insurance attorneys crafted or created the concept of binding arbitration because they thought it was the fair thing to do or because they wanted to stack the deck in favor of their client, the corporation? In other words should your only recourse be limited be to what corporations offer or rather should you have full fledge access to the court system like our forefathers envisioned? The limiting of one's rights, its like saying you can only play ball with one hand tied behind your back. What do corporations fear? Name one corporation that went under because their employees sued them into extinction.

I think you are naive to believe that corporate America is going to look out for you as an individual, and even more naive to not understand the simplistic model of collective bargaining. Perhaps it is because you are ignorant about your true worth in today's economy, suffice it to say, an analysis would be in your best interest.

I sincerely wish you luck with the benevolence of your employer, oh you don't need luck, I'm certain your employer will always look out for you and your family.

P.Ss Dont be too selfpromoting, Airline Pilots do go the extra mile too when asked, to say shifting their vacation, not all of them, but you certainly dont have the pious market cornered, trust me.

 

[chase]

To clarify

All major airlines managements have supported this bill. For the record, SWA has put out a statement that it is taking a neutral position & is not a party to pushing this bill before congress. The statement said the company had good relations with it's employee groups & didn't feel this bill was necessary. Not every airline company is in support of this legislation, for those who are interested.

For ancedotal info though this type of negotiation process was discussed among many pilots at SWA. It was the thinking that in the case for SWA pilots this method of solving any impasse would eventually be favorable to the pilots. Here's the logic. Contracts have traditionally been negotiated upon the assumption of what other carriers were paying their pilots. If an arbitrator was to look at what other pilots were making, look at the productivity of our group, look at the profitability of the company as compared to others, the assumption leads one to believe if a company offer wasn't industry leading & the pilot offer was close to that or at that, it would be hard for a "take or leave" type arbitrator to not rule in the favor of the pilots. So in the case of the SWA pilot group the passage of this law "might" be good for the pilot group of SWA. Just one person's opinion, not to be used to take one side or the other of the bill. Just one perspective from one SWA pilot.

cheers,

 

[cocknbull]

I don't know much about this bill that the senate wants to purpose so please correct me if I am wrong.

Pilots are absolutely worth the money. Pilots have an extremely stressful job with high responsabilty. Flying reqiures great skill and intelligence. Pilots should be compensated like doctors.

If you have been at your airline long enough to bid a 14 hour line, good for you. Management should shoot scheduling not the pilot.

I do realize that mangement needs to cut cost, but I think the majority of pilots are underpaid. Many guys at my level work for nothing, well almost nothing in the hopes of one day making it to a major. The problem is if we continue to work for nothing there will be no majors. The regionals will be too profitable. I hope the unions can fight to bring the standard of living in the regionals up.

I hope they pass a bill that will prevent baggage handlers from forcing UAL or DAL into paying them 25$ an hour. It amazes me when an unskilled laborer can make more the many pilots. Call me an arrogant pilot ,that can't spell, but I think that is rediculous.
If you want to cut wages, cut the guy who throws bags and fuels planes. Work 15 minutes off 45 minutes. that sounds like a great gig. The reason I said unskilled instead of un educated workers is because any one who can negotiate this deal is brilliant.

I also think all these landing fees, ramp fees and security fees the airlines pay is dumn too. In my opinion air travel is a negative claim right. Meaning it is needed for the security of the country and therefore should be backed by tax dollars. A positive claim right would be something like wellfare wich we pay taxes on but isn't really needed for national security. For the same reasons we don't pay to drive on most highways I don't think the airlines should pay to land at an airport.

Guys I could be way of base, but hey I am rookie if you agree great. If not let me know whats up so I can be educated.
Thanks

 

[2000flyer]

Well, lets see. I posted an honest opinion, my opinion, on a subject. At no time did I intend or try to offend. Just adding a thought to the thought process.

In doing so I have been accused of "having a bad marriage", "no life outside of my job", and now I'm "naive, ignorant and self promoting".

So, where or when did I ever say that airline pilots don't change vacations? When did I ever say and airline pilot wasn't worth every cent he/she earns? When, EXACTLY, did I say ANYTHING negative about airline pilot's in general? Yes, I did share a relative's story about bidding. Do I blame him? Is he less of a pilot for using the system given him? Of course not. Nothing I've said here was a detractor to an airline pilot. It was, and should still be, a discussion on the union.

Peeps...you make some great points in your comments. Yes, I'm an outsider looking in when it comes to airline unions. However, rather than make a personal attack on your opinions, I take them and I learn from them. Besides, when we talk about the jobs we love, aren't we always self promoting?

So, to those that provided insight and honesty in your opinions, I say thank you. I have learned much, despite the personal jabs. And to many a poster's delight, I shall retire to put the flames out on the second and third degree burns and make this my last post on this subject.

Unless you haven't noticed, I think of us ALL as professionals who are blessed with the ability to do what we love. Pro to unions, or con, we are all incredibly lucky individuals.

Good day,

2000Flyer

 

[Seeniner]

I haven't read the entire bill, but have been told that the bill applies to PAY only...that it does NOT apply to work rules, benefits, etc. Anyone know about the specifics?

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Live free....

The problem with your argument is once you join a major, you can't really "take all your marbles and go home". Your seniority system locks you into to one carrier for the duration, unless you are willing to suffer huge pay cuts.

If you work for Boeing, and decide to leave, Lockeed or Northrop may hire you. Odds are your salary will be close to what you had at your previous company.

...all those jobs allow mobility between companies.

Now...supposed you are a United FO just furloughed. Do you really want to start over at UPS, or do you wait it out 3 years and hope thinks recover? Every time you start over you take a huge financial penalty.

Unfortunately, in our job, we are "stuck" with our company for a while...

The funny thing about this is the reason you can not get the pay of a 20 year Capt if you switch companies is BECAUSE of the UNIONS. That is how UNION senority works. So if you want to be paid like a doctor/lawyer/etc you have to earn the revenue for the company or Unionize like the UAW.

It seems to me many unions with leadership outside the rank and file (AFL-CIO, UAW, etc) don't give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about the company or the employees all they care about is dues


My dad was a member of a Union PATCO and it got him no pension and no job after 19 years of military/civil service...

so I am a little biased.

I like to compete as an individual, cause I am talented and intelligent, but I can not negotiate at a unionized company it is take it or leave it.

True senority has its benefits, like no back stabbing or kiss-ups.

I just think a union can also kill the goose laying the employees golden eggs.

Cheers

 

[AlbieF15]

Live free,

All good points. One complaint frequently heard about ALPA is that is protects Captains interests more than new hires, as that is where the dues come from. Of course...the other side is the Captains will tell you they are protecting the job FOR YOU when it is your turn...all depends on where you sit at the time I guess.

Right now, with a 4000+ number at FDX, I would like to think my superior experience, breeding, and and talent mean I could quickly skip ahead of a couple thousand other pilots and be a widebody FO . (Obviously tongue in cheek...dont' flame me!) However, I am glad to have about 200 others below me so I don't have to be on reserve, and I'm quite sure I deserve to be ahead of all them....even those who for whatever reason interviewed with me but ended up 1 class later. (Again...this is sarcasm!). It still amazes me that getting in one stack of interviews verses another month's can have such ramifications...this seniority thing is all new for us military guys...

As a new guy...I hate seniority systems. But every day I like it a little better... I'm sure a few years from now I will LOVE it. I really think one of the biggest adjustments from being a military guy and "working" assignments is adjusting to the fact I will be an FE until the company grows or enough guys retire to allow me a shot at being an FO. No extra working at the squadron, competing for awards, or just plain old begging or brown nosing make things happen any faster in the seniority system--which is a double edged sword because those very facts also have a lot of appeal as well. Do your job...stay out of trouble..and in time you can move on to better things. Churchill used to say "Democracy is the worst form of government, until you look at the alternatives..." I imagine the same could be said for seniority. You wouldn't want your next promotion at your major to be based on how many extra nights away from home you would suck up, or days of reserve without pay you would take...or how many safety corners you could cut to save costs...so I guess I'll just have to keep "plumbing" with a smile and wait my turn for window seat.

Fly safe

 

[radiofly er]

Never settle for less

2000flyer, I understand where you're coming from, although I never flew executively for anybody I'm glad I didn't, but I did fly with many of them. It was sad when they were trying to carry my luggage, or clean the plane. Call it kindness, kissin ass or whatever, this is not our job, our job is to fly an airplane safely and this is what unions try to tell those rich CEO's. Stop this bill..................fast!

 

[ivauir]

For Seeniner and other seekers of truth

Official gov web site for bill


From my semi-literate reading of the complete bill found at the above address it DOES apply to work rules. I am asking McCain to reconsider and to include labor in his solution to what is an outdated and cumbersome system.

 

[68pilot]

Anyone who thinks that Unions are bad, and that we should just accept what the market will bear is really out of touch or just plain ignorant. Do a little research about the NWA-Mesaba-Pinnacle-Bigsky debacle any write back. If you think there aren't a hundred wannabees who are willing to undercut you to take your job, you have a lot to learn about the Airline industry. The companies are more than willing to have you work for nothing, and if we don't stick together, that is exactly what our cereers will be worth.

I'm not kidding about the NWA,XJ,9E,BS thing. It is enough to make you sick.

Gotta Go, informational picketing is bright and early tomorrow, and I've gotta go shine my shoes.

 

[PA-44Typed]

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