Airtran??

[Lear70]

You're in the minority, buddy, trust me. Next year there won't BE any 3 year CA's upgrading with the deferred deliveries.

My pay including August was $32,439.87. Project that forward you get a 2nd year F/O hired in '06 making about $50k for 2007. About 60k for 2008 (3rd year guys), about 70k for 2009, and about 90k for 2010 assuming a few late 4 year upgrades, and that's a BIG assumption, I'd guess closer to an early 5-year upgrade track for pilots hired in 2006.

You were lucky in your timing in hiring, I don't think AirTran will see any 2-3 year upgrades again for a LONG time to come (if ever).

 

[twepilot]

agreed...2-3 year upgrades are gone for the most part. But, in this business you just never know. There are no absolutes.

RV

 

[maxblast72]

You're in the minority, buddy, trust me. Next year there won't BE any 3 year CA's upgrading with the deferred deliveries.

My pay including August was $32,439.87. Project that forward you get a 2nd year F/O hired in '06 making about $50k for 2007. About 60k for 2008 (3rd year guys), about 70k for 2009, and about 90k for 2010 assuming a few late 4 year upgrades, and that's a BIG assumption, I'd guess closer to an early 5-year upgrade track for pilots hired in 2006.

You were lucky in your timing in hiring, I don't think AirTran will see any 2-3 year upgrades again for a LONG time to come (if ever).

That crappy FO pay (for years 2 and on) has been my arguement all along. Our Captain's don't need 1 cent over COLA (and maybe not even that) on the next TA until our FO pay comes up significantly so we can get a handle on our attrition rate. However, with AP and SH, the FO pay issue didn't matter and AP even said that at the roadshows (he said senior pilots have been he longer and will stay at Airtran longer). When push came to shove, AP and SH sold out the junior guys for their own benefit. Luckily our junior guys and some senior guys saw this and turned down TA2. When push comes to shove this time, I think the junior guys will get a more fair shake. MB understands that the junior guys (6 years or less) can outvote the senior guys on any TA that comes down the road. AP never figured that out until he was recalled.

That is why we need a changing of the guard to more junior guys leading the union. The first step has already been taking with MB being elected president. I believe he is the youngest and most junior president we have ever had. We will know the results of the rest of BOD this month.

We don't need any wedge issues at Airtran when we are trying to make our union stronger (especially with a sub 50% voter turnout for VP vote) but I get fustrated listening to some of my FOs telling me what some senior captains are telling them about turning down TA2.

As for upgrade times, you are right, they are increasing. But they might not increase as much as you think. We have alot of 737 FO's that are too good to fly captain on the 717 (they want to stay at mainline). Also, the uncertainty of the future QOL and pay of the reserve system of the next contract might lead to some people bypassing so 717 CA upgrades might be able to stay under 4 years for a while.

 

[Lear70]

Well-said.

I don't doubt that some people will bypass upgrade because of the inability to drop reserve days, and there will always be those who want to wait until they can upgrade into a buildup or regular line, but that used to be a 6-8 month wait, now it's 2+ years...

I don't know if the same number of guys will still play that waiting game and give up around $150,000 of income over those 2 years. The only people who can really afford to are the ones with working spouses making 6 figures. But I could be wrong, it's happened plenty of times before.

Hopefully we'll have a new T.A. by this time next year that's worth ratifying, reserve will get fixed and won't be such an irritating exercise, and fewer will bypass, but I still bet the reserve pay system will disappear. I don't think it should, but I'm in the minority... AP and team managed (minimized) that expectation masterfully.

 

[airline#5]

I'll beat the drum over and over and over. 2/3 Capt pay for FO's. I let it be known with every capt I talk to and so should you! This pay disparity is sickening and putting me(us) deeper in the poor house. All while living an extremely conservative lifesytle.

 

[maxblast72]

Well-said.

Hopefully we'll have a new T.A. by this time next year that's worth ratifying, reserve will get fixed and won't be such an irritating exercise, and fewer will bypass, but I still bet the reserve pay system will disappear. I don't think it should, but I'm in the minority... AP and team managed (minimized) that expectation masterfully.

I have listened to MB at recurrent lunch and this is his philosophy on future reserve rules and pay: If reserve pay rules go to normal industry standard, then "trickle-up" economics will apply meaning better QOL for Buildup line holders on up through regular line holders. Right now the company plays games with reserves (urping), open time (holdback to ensure open time available to assign to reserves) so that the company can minimum the soft pay to reserves due to the Tomi arbitration.

That being said, there is no reason why we couldn't go to 18 days of work a month instead of 20 currently and a 75 hour guarantee. The way Airtran stays understaffed, reserve usage would probably be high enough on the 18 days to minimize soft pay (ie earn 50 hours of pay credit on 18 days reserve but still get paid 75). Pay credit for reserves in summertime and holidays would still easily go over 90 hours for 18 days work (trip rig, duty period guarantee, deadhead pay, still applies to reserves). Other times of the year pay would probably be around 75.

 

[Lear70]

Probably right. Twome-Kasher was a heck of a windfall, and it's obvious that it wasn't written to work like that, but it SHOULD... A reserve day is still not a day off for me and anything other than a day off should have some monetary value which all adds to guarantee.

Your idea of reserve (12/13 days off) would still not be enough for me. You've got to have a way to drop reserve days as a reserve pilot.

You are going to be on reserve 2 - 2 1/2 years, that's a long time with only 12-13 days off, although with the way you pick up time, I don't suspect days off are as big a deal to you as they are to me with kids and such at home and living out of base.

And, with the way AirTran understaffs, I was crediting 80 hours a month EVERY MONTH with 14-15 days off on reserve and very RARELY sat unused. They get their utilization, I get my days off. It worked brilliantly.

Guess everyone has their own priorities. For me, anything less than 14 days off gets a little tough for me to enjoy my family, 16 off is preferable.

 

[maxblast72]

I think the days off on reserve thing will come down to minimizing soft pay. If Airtran had Southwest aircraft and crew utilization, we probably could get 75 hours of credit on 16 days worth of work. But with our lower utilization, that might be tough to do. Unfortunately for us, Airtran has a hub and spoke system with 35 minute turns vs Southwest primarily point-to-point system with shorter turn which gives them a higher utilization rate.

Your right about the reserve system worked brilliantly when you could drop and swap, for reserve pilots. But the rest of the group (buildup and regular) were paying the price with trip trade denial, reassignments, etc due to low reserve coverage caused by some reserve guys doing excessive dropping (8 or 9 days dropped per month). The guys that abused the system led to the company going to no drop/swap and then urping when they feel coverage is adequate. That is taking away pay from some guys that probably want it, and not allowing drops for some guys that don't live in the ATL. There should be a way to make everyone happy. That is the benefit of working for a larger airline. Some guys want to fly more and some guys want to fly less depending on what is going on in their life at that particular time.

 

[Lear70]

Your right about the reserve system worked brilliantly when you could drop and swap, for reserve pilots. But the rest of the group (buildup and regular) were paying the price with trip trade denial, reassignments, etc due to low reserve coverage caused by some reserve guys doing excessive dropping (8 or 9 days dropped per month).

You know, guys kept saying that, but I was a lineholder my last 7 months there and never had a problem improving my line.

I would get some denials, but by doing my trades early and watching the open time with FLICA alerts, I always was able to massage my schedule into 15-16 days off with 75-80 hours of credit as a lineholder with full or partial weekends off.

So I don't see that reservists being able to drop days hurt the lineholders excessively. That argument doesn't hunt with me since I operated on both sides of the equation in my time there.

The guys that abused the system led to the company going to no drop/swap and then urping when they feel coverage is adequate. That is taking away pay from some guys that probably want it, and not allowing drops for some guys that don't live in the ATL. There should be a way to make everyone happy. That is the benefit of working for a larger airline. Some guys want to fly more and some guys want to fly less depending on what is going on in their life at that particular time.

True enough, but the only way everyone will be happy is if AirTran increases their staffing ratio. The trips have to be covered, and they're either covered by reserve pilots or lineholders (buildup or regular). One or the other is going to not get that day off. Refusing ANY reserve day drops is abusing the reserves. Granting reserve drops down to 20+ days off a month abuses the lineholders.

There has to be a middle ground somewhere...

 

[TV9Driver]

Reserve - 15 days off, 75 hr gr. with the ability to pick up trips on your days off.

 

[another cfii]

Or build a variety of reserve lines, some with more days off i.e. 15, and some down to minimum of 12, and award the 15 days off reserve to pick-up open time at premium pay. There has to be some sort of middle ground.

I always wonder why Flica won't allow trips to be dissected, so people can just pick up 2 day out of a 4 day?? It'll boost productivity, in my opinion. Oh well, what do i know...

 

[CatfishVT9]

You are going to be on reserve 2 - 2 1/2 years, that's a long time with only 12-13 days off, although with the way you pick up time, I don't suspect days off are as big a deal to you as they are to me with kids and such at home and living out of base.

Not so fast my friend! CA reserve length is kind of fluid right now. That number is probably correct for the 737 since 717 CAs are coming over in droves (worried about being fired when SWA buys us). As a result, 717 reserve will be down to about 18 months.

I'm hoping the pendulum swings back the other way soon. But on the plus side, when you're on the bottom of the list it only takes about 10 minutes to do your bids.

 

[Lear70]

Ha! True enough,,,

I noticed a BIG increase of senior pilots bidding to the 737 when the announcement about Midwest came out, guess people are still merger-concerned, or the trips just got that much better than the 717 the last few months...?

 

[Alchemy]

Any updates on hiring in the near future? Do you stand any kind of chance without a reccomendation? Will 1000 RJ PIC get you anywhere or are you just another piece of paper in the stack?

 

[PCL_128]

Any updates on hiring in the near future? Do you stand any kind of chance without a reccomendation? Will 1000 RJ PIC get you anywhere or are you just another piece of paper in the stack?

Apparently still expecting to hire over 200 pilots next year. Without a recommendation, your best chance is to go to the career fairs. They actually interviewed a few guys on the spot at the last career fair in ATL. I think there's another AirInc fair in DFW next month. They usually prefer to see 1500+ PIC, but they've been getting less picky lately as hiring's picked up everywhere. If you go to the career fair and make a good impression, then I think you'd have a decent chance. Good luck.

 

[maxblast72]

The hiring numbers at Airtran aren't going to change much due to the age 60 rule change. Airtran was only supposed to retire less than 4% (about 50 guys) over the next 5 years. Compared to other airlines that were expected 15-20% of the work force to retire over the next 5 years, Airtran's career expectations will change the least due to the age 60 rule change.

As long as the 10 deliveries for 2008 still come we still should need about 200 pilots. The wildcard is how many FO's decide to leave for other places but that may slow a little due to age 60 rule change which will cause slower career progression at other places.

 

[DonVerita]

(worried about being fired when SWA buys us).

I know this is off-topic, but why the defeatism in your quote above?

If we merge with SWA, or even if SWA buys AirTran outright, do you actually think they are going to park (87) B-717's? If they were to merge/buy AirTran, they inherit the entire route system. By removing 87 aircraft overnight, that route system will collapse and they'll be in bankruptcy by the end of the week. This is not an ATA deal, nor is it a TWA type deal where both of those carriers were on Liquidation's doorstep. AirTran is a profitable company with new aircraft. That puts them in a totally different league from ATA and TWA.

There is no reason why SWA would not welcome a fuel efficient, state of the art airplane like the B-717 into its fleet. If anything, the B-717 pilots would be a protected group. Do you think SWA is going to allow their own B-737 pilots to bid over to the B-717 and incur all those training costs...at least during the first two years?

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

swa is down to 5 deliveries in 08. They are not going to buy us. People need to get over it, it isn't going to happen.
But, hey it is crazy business.:beer:

 

[Max Powers]

My sources say other wise......And remember Chief pilots are the last to know. But Secretaries that work in offices are usually the first.

 

[Alchemy]

Apparently still expecting to hire over 200 pilots next year. Without a recommendation, your best chance is to go to the career fairs. They actually interviewed a few guys on the spot at the last career fair in ATL. I think there's another AirInc fair in DFW next month. They usually prefer to see 1500+ PIC, but they've been getting less picky lately as hiring's picked up everywhere. If you go to the career fair and make a good impression, then I think you'd have a decent chance. Good luck.

Thanks for the advice, obviously I would really like a shot at a job at AT and will definitely try and make it to the DFW job fair.