Airtran??

[PCL_128]

true, but...
low seat mile cost = low salary

Not really. Pilot costs make up a tiny fraction of a penny in total airline seat-mile costs. SWA is a perfect example of this. They have the highest paid SNB pilots in the country, but their seat-mile costs are always within a fraction of a penny of ours.

 

[jke406]

Not really. Pilot costs make up a tiny fraction of a penny in total airline seat-mile costs. SWA is a perfect example of this. They have the highest paid SNB pilots in the country, but their seat-mile costs are always within a fraction of a penny of ours.

ok...then I have to ask, why are air tran's salaries so much lower?

 

[PCL_128]

then why are air tran's salaries so much lower?

We'll have a new TA within the next couple of years with sizable raises, and you'll see that the seat-mile costs barely move. It's all about the rest of the operation. Pilot costs are just a very small part of company costs.

 

[ForgedBlade]

Depends on what you want to do. If short-haul domestic is your kind of flying, then the schedules at AirTran on the 717 are typically better than the -88 schedules at DAL. If you want to fly widebodies or international, then go to DAL. Personally, I couldn't stand the idea of sitting in a cockpit for 16 hours going from JFK to Mumbai in a 777, but to each his own.

Then why take the pay cuts to go from one 'regional' to a slightly bigger 'regional'?

Who says we are in the cockpit for 16 hours, that what bunks are for. They don't call it 'dozing-for-dollars' for nothing!

 

[Lear70]

ok...then I have to ask, why are air tran's salaries so much lower?

Because Southwest pilots negotiated them. Not to mention they have a much more "employee-friendly" management team who recognizes the worth of the employees to the bottom line.

AirTran... not so much.

We'll have to negotiate it, it's that simple, yet that hard. It doesn't have anything to do with cost structure, except that it would reduce management bonuses. You could DOUBLE our pay and only increase CASM by about half a penny, still just about the lowest in the industry.

 

[jke406]

lowest per-mile cost in the industry and one of the lowest pay rates...even though better pay won't really increase per-mile costs?

something doesn't add up.

when's the strike?

 

[twepilot]

whats the % increase in cost when we're talking a half penny increase salary with an overall casm of 6.xx? I'm getting an increase of approx 8.5% off the top of my head.

RV

 

[twepilot]

my point from above is a half penny is huge when your only talking in the neighborhod of 6 pennies total...

RV

 

[Lear70]

That's true enough.

DOUBLE our salaries would be an 8.375% increase from the last quarter's 10k CASM, but we're not really asking for that.

A 25% INITIAL increase in F/O salary, plus an 8-10% INITIAL increase in CA's salary, COLA and longevity increases of 4% per year, keep the reserve rules, harder rules for the scheduling section, plus better hotel language, an increased 401(k) / B fund contribution, would be another 10%, for a total of a 25-30% increase in total compensation.

That's approximately a 3% increase in total CASM to give us a contract worth working under for the next 5-7 years.

I don't mind asking for that, nor should anyone else. These are numbers that are derived directly off ALPA EF&A numbers (I'm hoping the current NPA leadership doesn't get p*ssed about the discussion given it's something covered under the non-disclosure agreement I signed for negotiations), but it's numbers every pilot here needs to understand.

What we're asking for is NOT unreasonable. What doesn't add up is management's loathing to give us what equates to almost a $100 Million bump in pay and quality of life items over 5-7 years. They'll have to raise fares slightly (less than $5 per ticket) to cover it.

Too bad. The cost of everything goes up. Fuel goes up. Leases go up. Labor goes up. That's the way life is. They know it, they're just trying to minimize it.

 

[maxblast72]

lowest per-mile cost in the industry and one of the lowest pay rates...even though better pay won't really increase per-mile costs?

I don't know about lowest pay. From what I am hearing from the guys in my upgrade class (Nov 2006), the average 2007 paycheck for us 2004 hires is about $130 K ($140 K is you include B-fund). Show me another airline other than Southwest where 2004 hires are making $130 K. Airtran's not the best deal out there but definitely not the worst.

 

[Lear70]

You're in the minority, buddy, trust me. Next year there won't BE any 3 year CA's upgrading with the deferred deliveries.

My pay including August was $32,439.87. Project that forward you get a 2nd year F/O hired in '06 making about $50k for 2007. About 60k for 2008 (3rd year guys), about 70k for 2009, and about 90k for 2010 assuming a few late 4 year upgrades, and that's a BIG assumption, I'd guess closer to an early 5-year upgrade track for pilots hired in 2006.

You were lucky in your timing in hiring, I don't think AirTran will see any 2-3 year upgrades again for a LONG time to come (if ever).

 

[twepilot]

agreed...2-3 year upgrades are gone for the most part. But, in this business you just never know. There are no absolutes.

RV

 

[maxblast72]

You're in the minority, buddy, trust me. Next year there won't BE any 3 year CA's upgrading with the deferred deliveries.

My pay including August was $32,439.87. Project that forward you get a 2nd year F/O hired in '06 making about $50k for 2007. About 60k for 2008 (3rd year guys), about 70k for 2009, and about 90k for 2010 assuming a few late 4 year upgrades, and that's a BIG assumption, I'd guess closer to an early 5-year upgrade track for pilots hired in 2006.

You were lucky in your timing in hiring, I don't think AirTran will see any 2-3 year upgrades again for a LONG time to come (if ever).

That crappy FO pay (for years 2 and on) has been my arguement all along. Our Captain's don't need 1 cent over COLA (and maybe not even that) on the next TA until our FO pay comes up significantly so we can get a handle on our attrition rate. However, with AP and SH, the FO pay issue didn't matter and AP even said that at the roadshows (he said senior pilots have been he longer and will stay at Airtran longer). When push came to shove, AP and SH sold out the junior guys for their own benefit. Luckily our junior guys and some senior guys saw this and turned down TA2. When push comes to shove this time, I think the junior guys will get a more fair shake. MB understands that the junior guys (6 years or less) can outvote the senior guys on any TA that comes down the road. AP never figured that out until he was recalled.

That is why we need a changing of the guard to more junior guys leading the union. The first step has already been taking with MB being elected president. I believe he is the youngest and most junior president we have ever had. We will know the results of the rest of BOD this month.

We don't need any wedge issues at Airtran when we are trying to make our union stronger (especially with a sub 50% voter turnout for VP vote) but I get fustrated listening to some of my FOs telling me what some senior captains are telling them about turning down TA2.

As for upgrade times, you are right, they are increasing. But they might not increase as much as you think. We have alot of 737 FO's that are too good to fly captain on the 717 (they want to stay at mainline). Also, the uncertainty of the future QOL and pay of the reserve system of the next contract might lead to some people bypassing so 717 CA upgrades might be able to stay under 4 years for a while.

 

[Lear70]

Well-said.

I don't doubt that some people will bypass upgrade because of the inability to drop reserve days, and there will always be those who want to wait until they can upgrade into a buildup or regular line, but that used to be a 6-8 month wait, now it's 2+ years...

I don't know if the same number of guys will still play that waiting game and give up around $150,000 of income over those 2 years. The only people who can really afford to are the ones with working spouses making 6 figures. But I could be wrong, it's happened plenty of times before.

Hopefully we'll have a new T.A. by this time next year that's worth ratifying, reserve will get fixed and won't be such an irritating exercise, and fewer will bypass, but I still bet the reserve pay system will disappear. I don't think it should, but I'm in the minority... AP and team managed (minimized) that expectation masterfully.

 

[airline#5]

I'll beat the drum over and over and over. 2/3 Capt pay for FO's. I let it be known with every capt I talk to and so should you! This pay disparity is sickening and putting me(us) deeper in the poor house. All while living an extremely conservative lifesytle.