Airtran Union Board endorses TA w/ qulifications

[Lear70]

Flash a light at me to show the support....I'll be the AirTran crawling at 5 knots down the taxiway.

Yeah, I was kind of wondering how the flying for the rest of the week and weekend would pan out.

Not to mention APU usage, two-engine taxi, and "no faster than a brisk walk" taxis...

I'm off until next Thursday, someone's gonna have to let me know how it's going out there.

 

[cl65capt]

I start a four day tomorrow, I'll let you know. I'm not sure its the company we should be mad at here, after all it is there job to save money. I think its the NPA and the negotiating team we should be pissed off at. What the heck were they thinking even bring us this piece of crap? Looks like another couple years before we finally get a deal.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I start a four day tomorrow, I'll let you know. I'm not sure its the company we should be mad at here, after all it is there job to save money. I think its the NPA and the negotiating team we should be pissed off at. What the heck were they thinking even bring us this piece of crap? Looks like another couple years before we finally get a deal.

While BoD is to be held responsible, it's the company that said that pilots are nothing special to them, just like any other employee group. And it shows with this proposal. SWA worries about making money too, you don't see them insulting their pilots.

 

[LUalum]

It's ironic, last 3 recurrent ground school union lunches I've attended I was told to focus on scheduling issues in the contract and not get too hung up on the pay section Ch4. Now when they for some reason want to impress all us ignorant pilots with their hard won TA, the pay rates and lump sum figures are plastered all over the union site. I'm guessing 80/20 no on the rat vote. We are about to pay 380 million for MEH and we volunteer to start the clock at pushback! I must be missing something.

 

[newnan]

It'll be 60/40 in favor thanks to this appathetic group.

Please take advantage of KG's survey that was in your boxes.

 

[cl65capt]

While BoD is to be held responsible, it's the company that said that pilots are nothing special to them, just like any other employee group. And it shows with this proposal. SWA worries about making money too, you don't see them insulting their pilots.

I agree with you, but I do think the BOD has some explaining to do. Perhaps we need to get MB back on the negotiating team. I guess I'm just pissed because I come to expect this sort of crap from the company, what I dont expect is the union to go along with it and then try to make it seem better by saying we can start negotiating again in three and a half years. Well thats just friggin great, another six years of this bs. Sorry for the rant, I'm pissed off and tired.

 

[Beetle007]

They want to change the pay calculation to start when the aircraft moves back from the jetbridge. This is estimated by a couple guys to be a 2-3% pay cut on a monthly average,

I remember when I (we) took a 3% pay cut in a previous life my good friend started coming into work 3% late.

Last time I checked the AIM says to taxi at a Brisk walk. Have you ever tried to briskly walk from the jetway to the end of the runway =)

But in all seriousness I wish you guys the best

 

[Ty Webb]

This negotiating committee had a tremendous opportunity going for them (merger+shareholders' meeting) and still were manipulated into emerging with a concessionary contract!

I think they need to all step down, and make way for some guys with the testicular fortitude and negotiation experience they are so clearly lacking.

AP- we appreciate your efforts, but ever since the Christmas debacle, you have been on the wrong path . . . .it's time to step down and save us the effort of a recall. That is the best thing you can do for your fellow pilots.

TW

 

[Beantown]

Can someone fill me in on what "moving reserve days means"? I interviewed at AirTran recently and I figure I will be on reserve in the neighborhood of 6 to 12 months. I have never heard of this but some how it doesn't sound good. Bean

 

[Kharma Police]

I miss Mike B.....

 

[fmr727drvr]

Can someone fill me in on what "moving reserve days means"? I interviewed at AirTran recently and I figure I will be on reserve in the neighborhood of 6 to 12 months. I have never heard of this but some how it doesn't sound good. Bean

Means you and me and everybody else on reserve is fu&%ed real good. Not only are they asking us to take a pay cut....now we won't even know when our days off are gonna be. How do you make plans with a sched like that? Oh that's right....we don't give a sh*t about our reserves......what's new we have always treated reserves like second class sh$t at airtran.

 

[fmr727drvr]

And don't forget after an assignment they can put us on ready reserve.
Did I mention we were getting FU$%ed!!!!!!!!! Anybody that endorses this POS ought to be taken out to the wood shed!!

 

[RadioClash]

Can someone fill me in on what "moving reserve days means"? I interviewed at AirTran recently and I figure I will be on reserve in the neighborhood of 6 to 12 months. I have never heard of this but some how it doesn't sound good. Bean

From my understanding you will have golden days, each month, which are off days that cannot be moved, usually one block of 3-4 days off, and then you will have your regular off days which scheduling can move around the month at their will.

For example. You get a reserve line with Fri, Sat, Sun off each week. Scheduling calls you on Monday during week #2 and says your are now off on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and you are on reserve Friday, Saturday and Sunday of that week. And you have to answer the phone, because they call you during your reserve period. Can't hind from them. Then repeat the cycle each week. It sucks. When I was at ASA that is how they did and this sounds like that. I hope I am wrong.

So in effect you will get a reserve line each month, and out of 12 days off, or how many you get, you will only be certain of your 3 or 4 golden days off on specific days, the rest, well don't plan anything for the rest of your off days because they will get moved around.

This is total BS

 

[Lear70]

Can someone fill me in on what "moving reserve days means"? I interviewed at AirTran recently and I figure I will be on reserve in the neighborhood of 6 to 12 months. I have never heard of this but some how it doesn't sound good. Bean

According to the powerpoint presentation (the full text isn't available yet and probably won't be until tomorrow evening or after the weekend), the new reserve section has several give-backs, including "moving reserve days".

Instead of 10 days off on 28-30 day months and 11 days off on 31-day months, you're going to get 12 days off, but 6 of them are "movable", meaning you get 2 sets of 3 "hard" days off (not movable), and 6 days that you get "off", but that can be moved ANYWHERE, ANYTIME at the whim of the company.

You get 75 hours of guarantee instead of 70, but I spent 8 months on reserve, dropped down to 14-15 days off every month, and NEVER, EVER credited less than 90 hours, usually closer to 100, and never worked more than 70 hours of block, usually closer to 60.

This is equivalently a 20-25% pay cut for the reserves. In exchange, you got 1 extra day but now half are movable, a 75 hour credit, and long-call reserve that was already IN the other contract, but they weren't forced to use (now they are but only in small amounts).

Now they must make at least 10% of the lines long-call (Tactical Reserve), but we don't know under what circumstances they can call you in for regular reserve, ready reserve, or even a trip.

On average 10% of our lines are reserve, this will now go up to 12%. 10% of THOSE lines will be Tactical Reserve. I believe there were about 55 reserve lines last months, so 5 of those lines will be Tactical. Not exactly helpful for most pilots.

Overall, the reserve section is concessionary, and I'm not interested in a concessionary contract.

 

[Lear70]

And don't forget after an assignment they can put us on ready reserve.
Did I mention we were getting FU$%ed!!!!!!!!! Anybody that endorses this POS ought to be taken out to the wood shed!!

Yeah, that's a show-stopper.

I am NOT going to be on reserve as a lineholder.

Ready Reserve on the couch after a flight assignment as a lineholder... that's the kind of stuff that gets people a blanket party in parking lots.

RECALL THE NC NOW!

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

This negotiating committee had a tremendous opportunity going for them (merger+shareholders' meeting) and still were manipulated into emerging with a concessionary contract!

Yep! Company knew we were planning to have informational picketing at MEH shareholder's meeting in mid June. They successfully blocked that effort since TA vote is due on June 28th and you can't picket if you have a TA on the table.
After the meeting they can negotiate for another 2 years...no pressure.
I wanna vote now, or...say by June 10th.

 

[HalinTexas]

From the outside looking in. Vote No. You deserve better.

Might be time for an unofficial slow-down. (Use your imagination.) But above all: Be Safe.

 

[gt1900]

This entire POS TA is just another example of how our company bent the NPA over and made them look like complete idiots.. AAI management played this perfectly.. After I look at this chit, how can the union actually sit there and try to sell this to us.. What a bunch of idiots... BTW.. I'm not mad at the company at all.. Thier job is to negotiate a contract that the pilots will pass by 51%. Its business to them... They are the reason AAI is where they are finacially.. And I'm gratefull for that... They just proved how much smarter than our union they are again.. They bought themselves some more time and can concentrate on the MEH merger..... Wow, I really didn't think our union was this stupid.. Today, I was proven otherwise...

 

[AFcitrus]

Being a military guy I am kind of new to this game but would someone please answer me these questions:

1) Can we demand that our union take a vote next week after we see full version, prior to wasting any money on roadshows? If so let's get the ball rollin'.

2) How do we get the NC replaced now? Can someone start a signiture sheet in the crew room and get a certain number of signitures? What is the process?

3) Will someone start the recall process for the BOD? I specifically asked MG (Dom. Rep) on Monday why they were voting on something before we had Q and A in writing. He shrugged his shoulders and played ignorant. Now I know is wasn't playing.

Recall these SOBs now. I am afraid to say it but the word collusion is starting to come to mind. I think the membership needs to hire a lawyer to take on our own people. The company has done it. They have split our pilot group. No one has any faith in our BOD or NC anymore.

Let's get the ball rolling on these issues now while we still have time to gain back all the leverage our incompetent BOD/NC has just given away.

 

[BR715]

I cannot express to everyone how much sorrow I feel right now. I think I might even withdraw myself from the union. Why even pay dues anymore. The NPA is a worthless piece of crap.

Not only did the company insult the pilot group with this TA, but the NPA or that so called union we have also insulted us with this TA.

Vote No, No, No. I will work under the current contract for as long as I need to.

You guys want a TA? Get a vote going to bring ALPA on the property and you will see all the boys in Orlando giving us what we want.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

This seems like a simple fix. Current book, plus COL for the past two years and a 15% pay raise.

 

[Lear70]

Being a military guy I am kind of new to this game but would someone please answer me these questions:

1) Can we demand that our union take a vote next week after we see full version, prior to wasting any money on roadshows? If so let's get the ball rollin'.

You could draft a resolution, but that's no guarantee that they'll do it and there's no other way to "force" the BOD to do anything short of recalling them which takes time.

2) How do we get the NC replaced now? Can someone start a signiture sheet in the crew room and get a certain number of signitures? What is the process?

You draft a resolution or pressure the BOD into doing it by threatening to recall THEM if they don't. Signature sheets help...

3) Will someone start the recall process for the BOD? I specifically asked MG (Dom. Rep) on Monday why they were voting on something before we had Q and A in writing. He shrugged his shoulders and played ignorant. Now I know is wasn't playing.

I'm already hearing the beginnings of that. Again, the recall process is lengthy and it's unlikely you'll get it completed before this thing goes to a vote which, now that it's officially been declared a T.A. by the MEC, is actually required by the RLA.

Recall these SOBs now. I am afraid to say it but the word collusion is starting to come to mind.

It's either that or complete ignorance (or incompetence).

The NC Chair at the very LEAST has to go, and the rest of the NC and BOD put on a VERY SHORT LEASH.

 

[DougCorp-9]

The following is a reason to vote no also. The block times in the bid packet are not based on the published schedule anymore but rather on the average block times in the past. So if you underblock(not that I ever do you will start eating away at future pay.


Flight Pay Computation
Core credit time-
Based upon median actual block times from same 3 month periods from the last year.
If no previous measurement (i.e. new destination) median actual flight planning numbers will be used until a measuring period exists.

 

[Max Powers]

Don't forget those pay rates at the 15 year scale will only benefit a very small few and most of them will be Midwest guys....I think this money would be used more effectively as per diem increase etc.....

 

[CitationLover]

It doesn't work like the CRJ, doesn't depend on brake position at all.

The main cabin door being closed is recorded by ACARS, regardless of brake position or other doors (service, cargo, etc). It's on the 2nd page of the OOOI screen (Out, Off, On, In).

When the aircraft exceeds a certain speed for a certain amount of time (I'm told it's >4 kts for >3 seconds but nothing in writing), you can see the "OUT" time appear on the ACARS (on the 1st page). This is what they want to use.

Problem is after the main door is closed, the slides have to be armed, cross-checked, flight attendants verify everyone is down, then you run the last of the before start checklist items and request a push clearance.

You're GOING to give up 2-3 minutes at least every single push and, in large cities or with some pax who insist on getting up to get something out of the overhead or a couple bags that show up late, you're going to hit 5 minutes pretty regularly.

Additionally, the flight attendants have a "me, too" clause in their contract. We give this up, and the flight attendants give it up, too, unwillingly and, in all likelihood, pretty unhappily.

It's a lose-lose proposition and does nothing but save the company money.

thank you for the info lear. what does the npa charge you guys for dues (1.95% at alpa)?

 

[CitationLover]

Being a military guy I am kind of new to this game but would someone please answer me these questions:

1) Can we demand that our union take a vote next week after we see full version, prior to wasting any money on roadshows? If so let's get the ball rollin'.

2) How do we get the NC replaced now? Can someone start a signiture sheet in the crew room and get a certain number of signitures? What is the process?

3) Will someone start the recall process for the BOD? I specifically asked MG (Dom. Rep) on Monday why they were voting on something before we had Q and A in writing. He shrugged his shoulders and played ignorant. Now I know is wasn't playing.

Recall these SOBs now. I am afraid to say it but the word collusion is starting to come to mind. I think the membership needs to hire a lawyer to take on our own people. The company has done it. They have split our pilot group. No one has any faith in our BOD or NC anymore.

Let's get the ball rolling on these issues now while we still have time to gain back all the leverage our incompetent BOD/NC has just given away.

if the npa uses roberts rules of order and it is built into their constitution and by laws like it is at alpa, you can use these to a good effect (as most elected leaders simply do not know them that well). you could use them in essence to run a meeting away from their published agenda's. but mostly have strength in numbers to obtain what you wish to accomplish.

 

[RadioClash]

I am afraid to say it but the word collusion is starting to come to mind.

I was thinking the same thing. This is way too fishy. Nobody could be stupid enough to agree to this thinking the pilot group would be happy about it. Throw in some type of under the table deal or whatever and well you know...

I am not a conspiracy theorist but this thing reeks of a morning growler.

 

[crashman]

So what is "market rate" for a first year FO?

Am I going to take a paycut to $38.50 for the remainder of my first year? AND not have the high-paying reserve language anymore either?

How the hell do I pay the mortgage?

Why am I taking a paycut when the company has been in the black for how many years now AND just placed an order for an additional 15 airplanes?

I may not be able to vote here, but help me out guys!

 

[newnan]

Crashman,

Fill out KG's survey that was in your mailbox. There is a question on there about what you think of management. Answer that and your voice will be heard (at least a little).

The senior Capts. that throw junior guys under the bus should be put on a list so everyone knows who they are. There could be a running tally on BD's website.

 

[cl65capt]

So what is "market rate" for a first year FO?

Am I going to take a paycut to $38.50 for the remainder of my first year? AND not have the high-paying reserve language anymore either?

How the hell do I pay the mortgage?

Why am I taking a paycut when the company has been in the black for how many years now AND just placed an order for an additional 15 airplanes?

I may not be able to vote here, but help me out guys!

I thought first year pay stayed the same. If what you say is true there is yet another reason to vote no. Do we really need a bunch of road shows? Cant we just vote no now?