AirTran Road show Pairings

[DougCorp-9]

Are we paranoid. Look the numbers and settings are what is in the computer. Those rigs drive the numbers not JT with a evil leer. Your right it is so not in the companies interest to fly you, it so much better to hire more pilots so they can make you sit in the hotel. Go look and ask questions. I have had some history with these things in the past so your fears are unfounded im my opinion. But go look dont just take my word for it.

Klaus. Is that you?

 

[Just thinking]

4th time a charm???

Company has stepped up the offer for Midwest four times.... We are supposed to agree to this TA on the first go around??? I do not think so. The union is stating that the company will proffer for release from the current contract and impose this upon the pilot group. When I replied that the company is not in bankruptcy and they can't do this, the response is "they can still ask." Sad but true. Biggest frustration is the misdirections and out and out lies that they are saying trying to get this thing passed. Take the time to read Lear's analysis and arm yourself with the fact.

 

[CitationLover]

Company has stepped up the offer for Midwest four times.... We are supposed to agree to this TA on the first go around??? I do not think so. The union is stating that the company will proffer for release from the current contract and impose this upon the pilot group. When I replied that the company is not in bankruptcy and they can't do this, the response is "they can still ask." Sad but true. Biggest frustration is the misdirections and out and out lies that they are saying trying to get this thing passed. Take the time to read Lear's analysis and arm yourself with the fact.

let them try and impose terms. tell the "union" guy then why the f@#$ do they negotiate for anything since "they can still ask" for whatever they want.

hey joe, this is not the way to endear yourself to the MEH employees.

 

[Lear70]

I 2nd that, we need to get some sickers made "LEAR 70 for BOD Chair".:beer: . He can elect all the guys that help him with a couple of other section, you know who you are.

No, not a great idea.

I appreciate the support from everyone, especially since this has put me under the company microscope, but I haven't even reached my 2nd anniversary with this company yet and, although I have experience with different committees at my previous carrier, I don't have MEC leadership experience.

This is a critical time for AirTran, and the NPA needs someone in the driver's seat who is aggressive yet experienced with this company's history and leadership.

We're going to be put on ice for up to 5 months after we vote NO on this. The NPA has said this is a "cooling off" period (it's not, they're using bad terminology) but it WILL be a chance to get our house in order (replace the NC and certain BOD positions who are hard-core supporters of this T.A.) and get new data on the minimum contract requirements for the pilots now that everyone is aware of what COULD happen and what they really want.

I'd serve on the Negotiating Committee if asked, but I really think we need someone more experienced with this company in the driver's seat so close to the end-game with both the contract AND the Midwest acquisition.

 

[Ty Webb]

Need two MAAS on Norman Berry Drive

let them try and impose terms. .

They can't change the stauts quo during negotiations, and we're in negotiations until we're released, which is a long way from where we are now.

About the only change that will happen after this POS gets the smack-down will be that a call will go out for 2 MAAS on Norman Berry Drive . . . to help Skipper and Allen find Concourse C so they can return to the line.


.

 

[The Victors]

Went to the road show today, and CK had the new TA pairings available. Sits still are around but they seems to be shorter. A lot more variations on 2, 3 and 4 day trips. The days with flying under our current 4 hour min duty was VERY small. But the increase in flying per day was VERY serious. 3 days worth around 20 hours and 4 days with 25 to 28 hours wow, some not al. They looked good to me, better than what we have now. The average duty period didnt look that much longer than now. Oh and with a 1:2 the CDO's seemed to pay better that just the 4 hour duty period. Go check it out and decide for yourselves. The documentation was for a full month and not just a straw pole.

Just curious, but WTF does it matter if you have a high block 3 day if your pay is below industry standard? Is or is not this TA a pay cut when considering cola?

 

[Lear70]

Oh by the way, don't know if you guys know but our ALPA MEC is planning a big showing of support to the company stand alone plans by marching to the BoD meeting on the 14th. in full uniform. Plus the company is asking all employee who are off during the meeting to attend to show support for the company.

No, I didn't. No one's paying as much attention to the Midwest deal right now as we were - bigger fish to fry and all that.

I'm sure this is what AAI management had in mind all along - keep us occupied with a contract vote, make it look like we have our labor problems fixed (haven't heard even a WHISPER in the media that we might vote this down), and keep us from marching at your BOD meeting regarding our contract.

If you were marching in support of your company AND we were there marching in protest of ours, it might make a real difference. Very well-played by our management team.

Personally, I expect AirTran to be successful in getting their slate of BOD members elected. I then expect it to do very little good and your BOD to still turn down AirTran's purchase offer. I then expect AirTran to bide their time for another year, maybe go after Frontier for a mutually-accepted merger in the meantime.

I also expect this T.A. to fail and the company to basically stop negotiating for months and, even then, return to the old-style bargaining until we're back here again, this time next year, trying to get the next 3 members of the BOD elected to finish forcing this through.

THEN, I expect the company to be forced into a position to submit something worth ratifying, as we will hopefully have NPA leadership that won't squander every advantage this pilot group gets.

Good luck to all,,,

 

[Lear70]

Just curious, but WTF does it matter if you have a high block 3 day if your pay is below industry standard? Is or is not this TA a pay cut when considering cola?

Not quite; it's a 1% raise IF you're one of the people in the 13% pay bracket.

Otherwise, yeah, it's a pay cut.

Using round numbers:

Raise from $100 per hour to $113 per hour (13%). 7.5% of that was COLA for the last 3 years with no COLA raises (using 2.5% per year - the most conservative of the Consumer Price Index or inflation numbers from each year).

That leaves 5.5% of that raise, or $5.50 per hour in pure increase.

Doing the research on the cuts from "core block" and "door close" and NOT applying them cumulatively, but only where each applied, we came up with 3 "brackets": the highest cut we ever calculated was a 7% loss. The average was 5%, the minimum was a 3% pay cut.

Remember, those will be a decrease from the NEW pay rates, or how much we will lose off our "NEW" pay from the loss of those concessions, respectively.

3% of $113 per hour is $3.39 per hour give-back. Since, adjusted for COLA, the true "raise" off the 13% bracket guys is $5.50, you now only get a $1.11 per hour raise.

5% off $113 per hour is $5.65 per hour give-back. Compared to the $5.50 raise, you now gave back an extra $0.15 cents per hour in total concessions, adjusted for COLA.

7% is obviously even worse than that.

For the pilots who only got a 9% raise, 7.5% of that was COLA just to bring you BACK to what you were making before the contract became amendable in equivalent dollars. That's obviously eaten up with the 3% MINIMUM give-back in work rules, so you'll be making less than COLA no matter which bracket you fall in.

If you got less than 9%, you're just hosed. Period.

I'm sending all of this to all the BOD members as soon as I get the Sec. 13 stuff back from BD. No one will be able to claim that "they didn't know" all the pros AND cons to this T.A. If they ratify it, so be it.

 

[ATLplt]

BFL, You're entitled to your own opinion, but I hope you like 86 seat RJ's rapidly growing our routes instead of our own. It doesn't take a road show to figure that out. This WILL get voted down. Why not vote to help it go down with some authority?

 

[DASHDRIVER]

I have been reading all of these threds with great intrest as a soon to be Midwest guy and one thing continues to puzzle me. Has Airtran not been a generally profitable company for the last five years while everyone else has been suffering? I do not get why there is even this big of a discussion inside the pilot group. There should not be one single consessionary item acceptable in this TA. What reason are they giving you guys at the show for these needed cuts? Scope (have you guys been watching what has happened all over this country), Ready Reserve at outstations (Christ MESA doesn't even do that), Average pay days; sometimes I forget I am reading a Major airlines contract! Meger is somthing that would scare me from another side of the fence. But honestly how much damage can 350 Midwest pilots do to a seniority list of your size? Fence, the upgrades for a while, protect ATL for everyone that wants to be there and presto, a fairly painless merger.

I for one can not believe that my current workrules at Air Wisconsin provide what appears to be better protections than this TA does. Please educate me if I am wrong. Good luck to all of you, I am hoping for the best. This is probably going to be my contract sooner or latter.

DD

 

[Lear70]

You're not wrong.

The big push by the NPA is summed up by one phrase: industry average

1. They're saying that the industry average among major airlines is to allow Scope of this range. They have not given a single good reason why we should give this up, except that it's industry average.

2. They're saying that wheel movement for pay is industry average (even though it's door closed and beacon on for Delta who our pay rates are compared to).

3. They're NOT saying our pay rates are industry average, they're just comparing them to Delta which is in bankruptcy and below the average.

Other than that, they say that "the pie is only so big" and they had to give up those items to get those pay rates which are, as far as I can say, almost cost-neutral when COLA is considered.

I can't believe that there are people buying into it (and there are more every day). They are VERY convincing at the road shows, which is why there is a group of us trying to spread the truth behind the smoke and mirrors.

Pilots WANT to believe their fellow pilots. You have two choices: believe THEY were sold a bill of goods by the NC and AP and are going with it OR believe you are being sold a bill of goods by a group of people you trusted to protect your interests.

Either way, it's hard to admit you were wrong to trust them (either group), and that's sometimes hard to do.

 

[BFL370]

Guys you have your minds make up come hell or high water, just do me one thing. Read the "RLA for Dummies" some of you have no idea what the company or the union can do legaly. But you just may find out and I hope for all of us it is not hard class. Peace out.

 

[Lear70]

The ONLY thing the company can do, when this T.A. is voted down, is either come back to the table or ask the mediator to be released, a cooling off period imposed, then allow the company to impose the contract of their choosing. The arbitrator may, or MAY NOT agree to the company's request.

If the arbitrator does allow it, at that same time, we will also be released into self-help.

It's a double-edged sword, you don't get one without the other, and your reading would have revealed that. This would be the absolute WORST time for the company to have a work stoppage: right after they get their 3 BOD members elected to the MEH BOD and they're trying to persuade the REST of the merger-hostile board at Midwest to sell to us, we go out on strike, even a short-term strike or selected CHAOS?

You're telling me you actually BELIEVE the company would risk that?

Not to mention, the LAST time an airline tried to lock employee groups out of work without replacement workers standing by, it cost the airline ITS EXISTENCE.

Somehow, given that a few of our management team were around for that mess, I doubt they'd try all that again. Unlike Eastern, AirTran is not worth more in pieces than as a whole.

Come back to the table or asked to be released into self-help/contract imposition. There ARE no other legal options per the RLA.

 

[DougCorp-9]

Guys you have your minds make up come hell or high water, just do me one thing. Read the "RLA for Dummies" some of you have no idea what the company or the union can do legaly. But you just may find out and I hope for all of us it is not hard class. Peace out.

I know that the company can't impose Sh!t until we are released from mediation. After that they are free to impose whatever they want but we are also free to stop flying the airplanes. The way this place is run it would only take 150 pilots not showing up to completly turn this place upside down. He!!, I can't even swap a trip because they never have any reserves!

 

[Citrusflyer]

Here's a thought, call me crazy or just uninformed.....But why can't this "TA" be recalled and reworked by both sides?

From everyone I talked to this thing is going down, it's just a matter of how hard (and it's looking like it will be by a somewhat sizable margin).

The company, and the NPA, has told us that they want this settled so they can concentrate on the potential merger with Midwest. Everything in the TA is being sold basically under the auspices that management has turned over a new leaf, so to speak, and is more willing to work with us (hence the many "improvements" that are NOT in writing). If those assumptions are true (I know, who am I kidding?) AND if both management and the NPA know this thing is doomed, then why don't they save a lot of time, effort and pain and pull the TA back, work on it, and send us a new one?

There are only three possibilities from this point forward, without that happening.
(1) The TA passes, the point is moot. Except for the potential of the mass exodus of pilots afterward.
(2) The TA fails by a narrow margin, and the pilots loose all power to improve their position in the follow-on negotiations.
(3) The TA fails big, and the reverse is true for (although less so) for management.

If #2 ro 3 occurs the cost of doing business here will go up tremendously. The "do your job" mantra will become reality, and the company's bottom line will most likely take a hit. And the pilots will have to fight it out another year to get any improvement over the abortion of a TA we now are presented with.

It seems to me that IF the union and management want this done painlessly then they should open their collective eyes, eat some crow and get this done. If it's business as usual, then both sides will most likely take their chances and hope that their respective best case scenario comes true.

The way I see it, if both sides are serious in their statements; management wanting this done with a decent outcome, and the union in that they are representing the best interest of the pilot group, then reworking this now, before the voting starts is the best-case-scenario for all.

 

[CitationLover]

don't buy this TA needs to be done now nonsense. a merger with MEH, if announced 6/14, would take a LONG time to happen (look at AAA/AWA). at WORST, 400 MEH pilots are on top with 1600 (thats 4 times as large) AAI guys stapled (that ain't gonna happen).

 

[Lear70]

don't buy this TA needs to be done now nonsense. a merger with MEH, if announced 6/14, would take a LONG time to happen (look at AAA/AWA). at WORST, 400 MEH pilots are on top with 1600 (thats 4 times as large) AAI guys stapled (that ain't gonna happen).

That's not what the NPA says they're afraid of.

The fear-mongering that's going on is saying that AirTran buys Midwest, we turn down this T.A., then the company decides not to integrate AirTran and Midwest, and sends all our 737 deliveries to Midwest while they stagnate us and refuse to negotiate a new contract except to meet as the mediator orders them to.

That's why I've pointed out that the company doesn't have that option. It's completely baseless, and the merger "language" in the T.A. is completely USELESS as it doesn't bind the holding company, and THAT'S WHO'S BUYING MIDWEST!!

I can't believe people are even buying into that whole deal, but that's one of the 3 things people take away from the roadshows.

 

[CitationLover]

That's not what the NPA says they're afraid of.

The fear-mongering that's going on is saying that AirTran buys Midwest, we turn down this T.A., then the company decides not to integrate AirTran and Midwest, and sends all our 737 deliveries to Midwest while they stagnate us and refuse to negotiate a new contract except to meet as the mediator orders them to.

That's why I've pointed out that the company doesn't have that option. It's completely baseless, and the merger "language" in the T.A. is completely USELESS as it doesn't bind the holding company, and THAT'S WHO'S BUYING MIDWEST!!

I can't believe people are even buying into that whole deal, but that's one of the 3 things people take away from the roadshows.

well if your worst comes to fruition, as you and i have both stated, the NPA HAS LEGAL GROUNDS TO A SINGLE CARRIER PETITION. thus, the scaring is all unwarranted again.

 

[Ace McCoy]

Guys you have your minds make up come hell or high water, just do me one thing. Read the "RLA for Dummies" some of you have no idea what the company or the union can do legaly. But you just may find out and I hope for all of us it is not hard class. Peace out.

Dude, seriously, where did you come from? Have you read "RLA for Dummies?" Or are you just going by what the NPA is telling you?

Those guys don't even have a clue as to what's in a document that they wrote so how the he!! are they gonna know about what's in the RLA?

 

[Ace McCoy]

2. They're saying that wheel movement for pay is industry average (even though it's door closed and beacon on for Delta who our pay rates are compared to.

It's the same way at Northwest too. Doors closed and brakes released is considered an out time.