AirTran QOL

[Whine Lover]

"Trust me, you don't want to do that."

O.K.

So, maybe I should just blow Joe directly then?

I want to do this the right way...As an Airline Pilot I enjoy living on my knees, I just need to know what I should suck and when.

That's part of my "situational awareness".


YKW

 

[Murphy]

717 FO. Two months of reserve and one month of CDOs. Holding a buildup line. I enjoy working for AirTran. The only downer is the contract negotiations. I wish MGT would save the 39 cents and stop sending letters to my home. Put it towards fuel or something constructive. They are pissing away a perfect opportunity to convince 1300+ pilots that is not just a good, but an awesome place to work.

....and I am out of here.....

 

[Ty Webb]

It's been good to me, so far. I was hired after 9/11 and have been a 737 CA for over 18 months, very few places to do that at right now.

For newhires today, though, it's a different story, and we have been losing about 4 newhires a month to SWA, Fedex, UPS, CAL, Jet Blue and Emirates. We have even had a few fairly senior captains bail in the last few months, if that says anything.

Unfortunately, management is too busy stuffing money in their pockets on their way out the door to do anything other than pull out the old "Eastern Airlines Contract Negotiations Manual", and it is really starting to show.

This is really unfortunate, since the long-term costs of that decision will vastly outweigh any short-term savings.

They have done a great job of squandering the goodwill that used to exist. Wonder how long before Wall Street starts to notice, or maybe they have . . . the stock is down about 25% from it's high this year.

 

[Lear70]

The above statement says it all.

Most of the pilots here don't believe what their elected union officials are telling them. What secret agenda would your union have? why would they lie to the membership?

This is exactly the reason we'll never get a decent contract, I guarantee.

Wake up and use some common sense here for Christs sake!! Support your union and do your job the safest way you know how!!

Oh, don't get me wrong. My VERY FIRST communications from the company wasn't a "Welcome to airTran" letter, it was a "Your union is being greedy" letter. WTF??!!

NOT the best tone to start off your employee / employer relationship. Then in my VERY FIRST phone conversation with a scheduling supervisor she violated the contract. Twice. In one conversation. Checked it with my Check Airman, he was pi*sed. Again, not a good way to start but it didn't affect me that badly and I'm on probation so I just sucked it up and did the trips they wanted with a smile on my face.

Hey, I'm new, I like being here and if it's one day different in flying and not a big family event I need off, no big deal.

On the other hand, for the most part after reading the contract (and yes, I did read it cover to cover), I LIKE the current contract, minus the pay scales on the F/O side (that $20k a year pay cut SUCKS). I'm solidly in the camp of increase pay scales up to current COLA from what it was when the agreement was last signed, put COLA and longevity raises in the new numbers, fix a few QOL issues and some contractual loopholes I keep hearing about, and put the thing to bed.

It's not about not believing the Association, I have NO DOUBT they're telling the truth, no doubts whatsoever. For me it's about not necessarily being so gung-ho to rewrite a contract that is, for the most part, already equal to or better than most of the top tier carriers in terms of overall compensation, trip / duty rigs and QOL, and pay protection.

Obviously I'm in the minority or that wouldn't be the way the negotiating committee is being steered by the Wilson Polling data and YES, I KNOW I'M NEW, so I'd really APPRECIATE someone to explain it to me so I can understand WHY the more combative and obviously longer and more difficult road we're taking.

Not a slam, I really just don't get it and I'd like to understand. Or should I wait for access to the private board to ask these questions?

 

[ron burgundy]

People, why are you so uptight? I answered a simple question. QOL is good at Airtran.. For me. You are angry that us "young kids" are doing as well as we are.
New era..new business model.. new attitude..I would be angry if I were you too.I would probably go to Rio and s..k c..k on a street corner to regain
some self esteem. I'm looking forward to a postcard from you.

AND IF THIS WHINE LOVER GUY KEEPS CHIMING IN..WE ARE GOING TO "BUY" HIM AND STAPLE HIM TO THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST!!!

DID I MENTION ...I"M KIND OF A BIG DEAL?????

 

[Oh-ryan]

Ron, I got your back on this one... not that it means a whole heck of a lot. But gees... "Whine" and "Phaedrus" please spare us the Debby Downer rants. We are all aware of the downside of this industry, but if Ron is happy at AirTran that's great... let him be happy.

If you feel the need to cause hate and discontent take it out on the pilots you fly with like you usually do. I am sure a 4-hour burner with one of you guys is a real thrill. Here is a better idea, kick some puppies on the way to work... your copilots will thank you for it.

 

[Whine Lover]

Kicking puppies is sick.

I prefer 6 hamsters in a shoe box and a 20 oz. Ball Peen.

THEN I get to sit in my Bully Pulpit for hours spewing all I don't know about everything on the planet while Gimpy the Co-Pilot Circus Boy handles absolutely everything.

And Mr. Burgundy, you shall be him one day...you will pull my gear, and load my box, and ...wait, that doesn't sound right.

Anyway, you know what I mean "Mr. Buckhead-Living-Hat Wearing-Delta-Wanna Be".


YKW

 

[-9Capt]

The above statement says it all.

Most of the pilots here don't believe what their elected union officials are telling them. What secret agenda would your union have? why would they lie to the membership?

This is exactly the reason we'll never get a decent contract, I guarantee.

Wake up and use some common sense here for Christs sake!! Support your union and do your job the safest way you know how!!

Just for clarification:

I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. However I firmly believe that this pilot group has a serious solidarity problem.

 

[-9Capt]

Then in my VERY FIRST phone conversation with a scheduling supervisor she violated the contract. Twice. In one conversation. Checked it with my Check Airman, he was pi*sed. Again, not a good way to start but it didn't affect me that badly and I'm on probation so I just sucked it up and did the trips they wanted with a smile on my face.

Lear,

I know its hard to take a stand when your brand new, but don't let sched make you their b!tch. Sched knows who accepts non-compliant assignments and who doesn't. They know who will accept trips on days off also.

If they try to get you to violate the contract again, politely question the legality of the assignment and CALL THE CONTRACT COMPLIANCE HOTLINE IMMEDIATELY!! Let them know you're new, and they will handle it on behalf of the pilot group. Every pilot should have this number programmed in their phone.

Every time a pilot accepts a trip that isn't compliant, the company takes note of it. They then use this info at the negotiating table as a way to gain concessions. If it was important to us, we would hold them to it.

 

[j41driver]

I currently have around 2500 TT 800 PIC jet 1200 jet 3 types. Is this way too low?

Do you have 500 hours Part 121 PIC? Unfortunately, they won't look at anyone that doesn't have the 500 hours Part 121 PIC or Military equivalent. My personal opinion is that they're missing out on a large number of very good candidates by doing this but they didn't ask me. ;-)

I was hired in Sept 2005 and, at about 4500 TT or so, I was one of the lowest time civilian guys there. I have no idea if this is typical or not. Basically if you meet the minimums, apply. Good luck!

 

[Ty Webb]

Agree 100% -9Capt.

Lear, the reason we need a full re-write is because the last contract language was sufficient when management was actually behaving in an honorable manner. Unfortunately, since they couldn't get the concessionary contract they wanted (which would have went right to management bonuses) they are acting like little kids and "re-interpreting" the contract at every turn to their benefit. So, the new contract needs to have unambiguous language . . . . copy?

I also believe that this Union has the membership's interests at heart, and nothing else, and the contract they are looking for is the result of three polls of the pilot group. Management knows this, and that is why the Propaganda Minister cranks out his monthly letter . . . . . which, in my house, goes directly into the garbage, where it belongs.


.

 

[-9Capt]

I also believe that this Union has the membership's interests at heart, and nothing else, and the contract they are looking for is the result of three polls of the pilot group. Management knows this, and that is why the Propaganda Minister cranks out his monthly letter . . . . . which, in my house, goes directly into the garbage, where it belongs.


.

"return to sender" and drop it back in the mail.

 

[DonVerita]

The union sends a letter saying the company wants recesions and is trying to screw us, and the Company sends a letter telling there side of the story.. Most of the guys I talk to seem to think the truth is somewhere in the middle..

Your last sentence is total B.S. sir! How long have you been here? Less than a year perhaps? Open your eyes and get out of that regional airline mentality. This place may be better than where you came from, but it is by no means up to the level it should be.

So you think most guys, "think the truth is somewhere in the middle" eh? And I guess you think the same. So who are you going to believe--- Your union that is fighting tooth and nail to improve your QOL, and fix the situation with a total contract re-write...or management that does the following:

1. Reassigns your trips without full pay protection on a day by day basis. This is a contract violation.

2. Holds back available trips instead of putting them all in Open Time so they can assign them to reserves. News flash: Use that time to create more Hard Lines and get those reserve guys off Reserve sooner.

3. Assigns trips to reserves outside of the 48 hr. window. Contract violation.

4. Is the only management in the country to be greedy enough to charge other airline pilots for rides (NOT INCLUDING jumpseats...those 1 or 2 are free).
Get real! The pilots of this industry have been through hell. Go with UNLIMITED jumpseats and then we can get reciprocal for the same thing with other carriers. Oh wait...that would be a QOL improvement...so we can't have that.

5. Wasting money and alienating customers left and right because of piss poor customer service in ATL, BWI, PHL, MDW, etc.

6. Paying themselves $4 millioin in bonuses in the first quarter and $8.3 million in the 3rd quarter of last year....yet they have the audacity to come to you asking for concessions.

Like someone else said a few posts back...wake up, smell the roses, and by God man...support your union with full, visible solidarity.

 

[CAVOK69]

so you are telling me Airtran has NO military pilots or corporate pilots?? All are 121 guys... ??

sorry can't believe it!!! they are missing out on a great group of applicants

 

[ron burgundy]

Kicking puppies is sick.

I prefer 6 hamsters in a shoe box and a 20 oz. Ball Peen.

THEN I get to sit in my Bully Pulpit for hours spewing all I don't know about everything on the planet while Gimpy the Co-Pilot Circus Boy handles absolutely everything.

And Mr. Burgundy, you shall be him one day...you will pull my gear, and load my box, and ...wait, that doesn't sound right.

Anyway, you know what I mean "Mr. Buckhead-Living-Hat Wearing-Delta-Wanna Be".


YKW

I prefer to find small helpless birds in the middle of the road and slowly...ever so slowly..roll my tires over thier small fragile skulls. Hearing the cranial plates shifting, scraping, seperating and finally crunching and popping under the weight of my wheels!! I AM A GOD!!!

 

[c9skytrain]

There are plenty of Military guys at AAI. Don't know about corporate.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

so you are telling me Airtran has NO military pilots or corporate pilots?? All are 121 guys... ??

sorry can't believe it!!! they are missing out on a great group of applicants

Reread the post. It said "...500 PIC 121 or military equivalent." There are quite a few military types here(for better or worse). As for the other, not many corporate only types.

The truth is if someone wants to be an airline captain than he probably needs some airline captain experience. The whole argument of which is harder (121, 135, corporate) is not applicable. I will put my military helo experience up against anyones in terms of degree of difficulty and whether or not it gave me the situational awareness required to succeed in the 121 environment. But what the airlines wanted was airline experience not a "mine is bigger because I've been there and done that inverted and on fire" story.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, the reason we need a full re-write is because the last contract language was sufficient when management was actually behaving in an honorable manner. Unfortunately, since they couldn't get the concessionary contract they wanted (which would have went right to management bonuses) they are acting like little kids and "re-interpreting" the contract at every turn to their benefit. So, the new contract needs to have unambiguous language . . . . copy?

Ahhh,,,, gotcha. Like I said, new and trying to figure out what's what without getting too wrapped around the axle about it. Hard not to do when I keep getting letters and emails and my wife's asking me WTF is all this stuff coming in all the time.

I also believe that this Union has the membership's interests at heart, and nothing else, and the contract they are looking for is the result of three polls of the pilot group. Management knows this, and that is why the Propaganda Minister cranks out his monthly letter . . . . . which, in my house, goes directly into the garbage, where it belongs.

Oh I never doubted for a second that the NC was doing what the results of the Wilson Polling had directed them towards, I just couldn't figure out WHY the polling data was skewed towards a full re-write. Thanks for the clarification.

As far as turning down an illegal assignment, easy to say when you're not on probation. Then again, my last carrier was "fire first, ask questions later", so I'm probably a bit gun-shy towards "comply and survive" while on probation.

 

[Ty Webb]

Lear, when you get an illegal assignment, please call the Contract Compliance Hotline. The person manning that line can go to the Scheduling Supervisor and resolve it at that level without even involving you, or at least let them know about the violation- you don't even have to give your name, if you don't want to, but it's the only way that your union can find out what the "trick of the week" is in Scheduling, and move to stop it before it becomes commonplace.

Welcome aboard!

 

[Nindiri]

How difficult is it to trade and drop trips? Lazy people like me need to know before we accept a class date.

 

[CAVOK69]

Reread the post. It said "...500 PIC 121 or military equivalent." There are quite a few military types here(for better or worse). As for the other, not many corporate only types.

The truth is if someone wants to be an airline captain than he probably needs some airline captain experience. The whole argument of which is harder (121, 135, corporate) is not applicable. I will put my military helo experience up against anyones in terms of degree of difficulty and whether or not it gave me the situational awareness required to succeed in the 121 environment. But what the airlines wanted was airline experience not a "mine is bigger because I've been there and done that inverted and on fire" story.

that really wasn't my point... my point was, the 121 is not a hard min as far as I have heard.... if so you would not have any corporate only pilots there. And you don't start off as a cap, so I think being an FO 121 for however many years is sufficient to learn the "121" side of things.... FedEx and other majors hire plenty of non-121 pilots.

 

[Airtran717]

How difficult is it to trade and drop trips? Lazy people like me need to know before we accept a class date.

a lot easier than the commuters. but sometime in the next 90 days we should have Flica which will include "real time trip swaps and drops" (outside of the integration period) so scheduling shouldnt have a hand in it and it should be near instataneous.... but we shall see. The FA's love it. Most of them bid a schedule but never fly anything on it, just swap it all away because of Flica..

 

[Bavarian Chef]

a lot easier than the commuters. but sometime in the next 90 days we should have Flica which will include "real time trip swaps and drops" (outside of the integration period) so scheduling shouldnt have a hand in it and it should be near instataneous.... but we shall see. The FA's love it. Most of them bid a schedule but never fly anything on it, just swap it all away because of Flica..

Flica at jb is pretty much as you described it. Can take a little while to process a request especially after open time first becomes available (many users trying to swap/drop/add at the same time, still that could be a problem inherent to jb's participation in flica, i.e. bandwith). Otherwise, all those requests are pretty quick and sometimes even instantaneous. It allows for some pretty amazing schedule flexibility BUT -- not everything in open time is desirable, so I try to get the best line as my seniority will allow (using of course a complex set of mathematics, color magic markers, maker's mark and an old dungeons and dragons map I found in the basement), and then I "tweak" my schedule as necessary as the month progresses. Good luck with the new system!

 

[atafan]

I prefer to find small helpless birds in the middle of the road and slowly...ever so slowly..roll my tires over thier small fragile skulls. Hearing the cranial plates shifting, scraping, seperating and finally crunching and popping under the weight of my wheels!! I AM A GOD!!!

You are truly sicK! I have heard of a pilot at ATA that is on a mental Disability leAve that sounds just like you. Are you sure this isn't you working at AirTran while on medical leave from ATA?

 

[XRMEFLYER]

that really wasn't my point... my point was, the 121 is not a hard min as far as I have heard.... if so you would not have any corporate only pilots there. And you don't start off as a cap, so I think being an FO 121 for however many years is sufficient to learn the "121" side of things.... FedEx and other majors hire plenty of non-121 pilots.

And what I and others have been saying is that in fact it is not a hard minimum. There is a "military equivalent", whatever that means. Maybe there should be a "corporate minimum" as well then, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be.

What we are saying is that it is what it is and potential applicants have two choices. Look elsewhere or get what it takes to get hired. This is not unique in the industry. SWA with the type and Fedex with their multiple internal rec requirements as examples. What you "think is sufficient to learn the 121 side of things" notwithstanding.

BTW Nice Avatar!

 

[j41driver]

.....

 

[Nindiri]

a lot easier than the commuters. but sometime in the next 90 days we should have Flica which will include "real time trip swaps and drops" (outside of the integration period) so scheduling shouldnt have a hand in it and it should be near instataneous.... but we shall see. The FA's love it. Most of them bid a schedule but never fly anything on it, just swap it all away because of Flica..

Thanks.

Truthfully, I already know that if AirTran should call with a class date I'll taking the first one available, but it's still nice to know that there is some flexibility in schedules. Now I just have to overcome ten years worth of lethargy induced by being comfortable at my regional.

 

[Uppercrust]

Agree 100% -9Capt.

Management knows this, and that is why the Propaganda Minister cranks out his monthly letter . . . . . which, in my house, goes directly into the garbage, where it belongs.

Kind of like most of your posts?

 

[Lear70]

Well, my trip trades and drops on reserve have been going BEAUTIFULLY!

I'm near the bottom of the list and can't hold weekends off, yet I've been dropping weekend reserve days then, on the Tuesdays and Wednesdays I'm normally off, I look up open time the late afternoon before when they're done doing lineholder trip pick up and swaps and see what looks good.

Then I call them up and ask them if I can have trip XXXX in open time for the next day. This way I make my reserve life commutable and only sit reserve one day a week and fly the rest.

My projected credit is still near the 90 hour mark and I'll get 13 days off. I don't know if I can do this forever but it beats the HELL out of life on reserve at 9e.

Good luck to you!

 

[Lame Lizard]

Agree 100% -9Capt.


Kind of like most of your posts?

Go easy on Ty. We all know he is Airtran's VILLAGE IDIOT.