AirTran MEC: Whine on!

[doh]

I was in a hotel close to Love Field last night and met a good number of AT guys going thru the transition and they all liked what was going on, one even said his union dues will now drop when they become SWAPA members. There are lots more transition classes happening for the rest of the year(1000+)

165 transitions (on average) a month? Really? That's fantastic news! Can you substantiate that?

 

[Just thinking]

The Wyndham house of rumors...... Great source. Haven't hired enough instructors for that load yet. Still interviewing at various bases for the staff for next year. Enjoy the 2300-0300 sims next year. It will make the A period look like a late morning sleep in day. Of course the captain seat rush will be on so all the premium time slots will be taken by rsw pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL128, do you think the Midwest MEC Vice Chair would have been running around telling their pilots that they were guaranteed to get better than DOH from an arbitrator?

I can't imagine that any MEC Vice Chair would ever "guarantee" anything.

 

[SWA/FO]

In that case (where a merger never took place) PCL's argument is that the Midwest pilots should have gotten less than DOH (by way of relative seniority) because AT was the younger, faster growing airline. His argument was the same with SW/AT because, again, AT was the younger faster growing airline with quicker promotion. In both cases he was working for the younger, faster growing airline so why wouldn't he want that....who wouldn't in the same position?

Relative seniority always favors the faster growing airline at that moment with the quicker upgrade at the moment. I see his argument, I just don't agree with it. He makes the argument that SW's superior compensation, contract and job security was contractual and therefore could change at a moment's notice so it was not a factor in an integration. At the same time he is assuming that AT's faster growth and upgrades were somehow a situation that would NOT change at a moment's notice and were relevant and should be considered to reflect career expectations. He seems to overlook the fact that while SW's pay and benefits remained untouched through 2008 and 2009 (and no pilot was furloughed) AT went from hiring and upgrading to furloughing and downgrading in an instant. If anything growth and fast promotion is a more temporary and fickle thing than contract quality because it can change drastically very abruptly.

I don't blame PCL and he, along with everybody else, is entitled to his own opinion but fair is a relative term and it all depends on where you stand. I think people on both sides oversimplify the issue, every case is different from others and this would have been an interesting arbitration. I have my own opinion on what an arbitrated list would have looked like and whether it would have ever actually been implemented but it doesn't matter now, it's over and the list is the list for now and forever.

That is 100% correct.

 

[HA25]

I meant no disrespect for Hawaiian, just in the age of acquisition/merger, no one wants to be the low hanging pineapple...but I know nothing...

I see no reason for HAL pilots to get anything other than DOH in any merger with a DAL, AA or UAL... bottom line, as ALPA pilots, we've carried our weight in this industry and continue to do so. We're a small carrier, but if purchased, we'd bring quite a high proportion of widebody jets and in many cases, brand new ones. Not a Reno Air scenario in anyway, shape or form...

 

[freightdogfred]

I see no reason for HAL pilots to get anything other than DOH in any merger with a DAL, AA or UAL... bottom line, as ALPA pilots, we've carried our weight in this industry and continue to do so. We're a small carrier, but if purchased, we'd bring quite a high proportion of widebody jets and in many cases, brand new ones. Not a Reno Air scenario in anyway, shape or form...

I agree. But as it was explained to me by a number of SWAPA pilots on this board, that's what the COMPANY brings, not the pilot group. That's the way they see it, anyways. Seems the intent of the MB legislation will be subverted no matter what, provided you put enuff lawyers on retainer.

 

[madjack]

What if the pilot group is not "bringing" seats?

 

[fletch717]

What if the pilot group is not "bringing" seats?

That was YOUR'RE managements decision. If you say they had no intention of ever keeping the 717, and you RSW pilots knew it. Then you allowed your management to screw you. Many RSW pilots like to post all the articles that point to the 717 leaving, yet you said nothing to your union or your company to get special wording in the SLI to protect your seats. We were told by SWA before the second deal was signed that the 717 would stay to the end of their lease. But you RSWA guys knew all the time they would'nt, and you still voted for the deal. If you like I can re post where you, red,bubba and others continually remind us how dumb we were to believe the 717 would stay.

 

[madjack]

"yet you said nothing to your union or your company to get special wording in the SLI to protect your seats.:

Well I guess AAI pilots don't have a monopoly on gullability...

 

[j41driver]

Rel Sen, talk about overshooting the mark and creating unrealistic expectations...

"No harm" created just as many unrealistic expectations. Plenty of blame to go around where that's concerned.

 

[scoreboardII]

That was YOUR'RE managements decision. If you say they had no intention of ever keeping the 717, and you RSW pilots knew it. Then you allowed your management to screw you. Many RSW pilots like to post all the articles that point to the 717 leaving, yet you said nothing to your union or your company to get special wording in the SLI to protect your seats. We were told by SWA before the second deal was signed that the 717 would stay to the end of their lease. But you RSWA guys knew all the time they would'nt, and you still voted for the deal. If you like I can re post where you, red,bubba and others continually remind us how dumb we were to believe the 717 would stay.

True.

But we have Plan B wording to garner exactly what's happening. Not optimal, as I think the 717 would have been better for me at my seniority staying than going, but it is what it is.

 

[SWA Bubba]

That was YOUR'RE managements decision. If you say they had no intention of ever keeping the 717, and you RSW pilots knew it. Then you allowed your management to screw you. Many RSW pilots like to post all the articles that point to the 717 leaving, yet you said nothing to your union or your company to get special wording in the SLI to protect your seats. We were told by SWA before the second deal was signed that the 717 would stay to the end of their lease. But you RSWA guys knew all the time they would'nt, and you still voted for the deal. If you like I can re post where you, red,bubba and others continually remind us how dumb we were to believe the 717 would stay.

-I- never said that.

I never claimed any knowledge about exactly when the 717s would go away. I said that GK would try to get rid of them (more urgently as gas prices went up), but no one knew if that would be sooner or later. He didn't have the deal with Delta (or anyone, for that matter)when all the SLI business went down, so the agreement had to have stipulations for either contingency. If he hadn't been able to broker the deal with Delta, they'd still be coming to Southwest (at least until the leases expired). It could have gone either way; company statements on the matter were ambiguous at best, and probably for business reasons--you don't make definitive statements that tip your hand. But now both sides in this FI argument are trying to claim knowledge that "proved" ill intent on the other side. I don't think this is as nefarious as anyone on FI is making it out to be.

As far as what I specifically said, I said that some of you guys only took away from public statements that the 717s were staying, because that's what you wanted to hear. I still stand by that.

Bubba

 

[scoreboardII]

Ditto Bubba. And I don't ditto often, but when I do

 

[madjack]

"No harm" created just as many unrealistic expectations.

agree

 

[carl p]

Fellas, without arguing the SLI why can't any of our future brothers recognize that the transition bid/award/execution phase of this has been a disaster on our side? We were told the 717 was staying, told to bid on a transition based on that plan, told after everything changed that the training awards would be honored and people awarded 717 would train for it, now told it is a free for all, and now watching Jr FO's transition. Just these changes in the transition agreement have huge financial and QOL impact on us. I'm quite certain the same people calling us whiners would be frustrated if the roles were reversed. I'll be happy to get on the west coast again and I want to transition sooner rather than later, but these changes are impacting ALL of us on this side. A little understanding for your future brothers would go a long way to bringing our groups together. I understand the strong feelings regarding the SLI, but it's over and we are one company moving forward. What harm would it do to be supportive of 20% of the master SWAPA list? Most of the SWA Pilots I've spoken to have no idea what is happening here and I get that since the transition plan doesn't impact them. Bottom line is the majority of us on both lists are good dudes and we should try to start some sort of healing process...

 

[scoreboardII]

carl, we agree, we understand. But the reality is, I cannot do anything about it. Anger needs to be directed toward one direction. That said, everything that's happening is in the contract and legal.

We understand whining, we are pilots. We don't take kindly however to rewriting truth/history via the likes of PCL, that's our only beef. I'd like to say I could help, but I've got nothing, sorry. GK will have the union he deserves though, I promise you that. We've already responded to their flattish contract statement with "flattish won't fly" campaign. What their doing to you now, will have a costly effect on them in the near future.

 

[HowardBorden]

Nope, not buying it. Multiple articles in the press said the exact opposite and a letter was sent by GK to the AT pilots that said the future of the 717 was tenuous at best. You can't rewrite history.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/...boeing-717-not-part-of-future-fleet-plans.ece
It?s not different enough or unique enough that it really brings any advantage beyond what a 737 would do,? Kelly said at the Boyd Group International aviation conference at a resort near Albuquerque.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2011/08/southwest-boeing-717/545260/1
Kelly noted that Southwest didn't see a need for anything smaller than its 137-seat Boeing 737-700s before deciding in 2010 to buy AirTran. Southwest operates 25 Boeing 737-500s, which has 122 seats, but hasn't bought any that size in two decades.

http://blog.chron.com/lorensteffy/2...17s-will-be-phased-out-because-of-fuel-costs/
Kelly said the reason for his change in attitude comes down to fuel prices. The 717, which has fewer seats than the 737, works well for short-haul flights, but the higher fuel prices go, the more customers get priced out of short-haul markets, he said.

http://worldairlinenews.com/2011/08...advantage-of-keeping-airtrans-88-boeing-717s/
Southwest Airlines? (Dallas) CEO Gary Kelly, according to this article by Flightglobal, told the attendees at the International Aviation Forecast Summit (hosted by the Boyd Group) that the Boeing 717 does not ?bring any unique benefit that Southwest cannot get with the 737″.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=c4f94beb-1199-4f21-9dbe-5423110c0db6
But in the time since, Southwest has decided it will eliminate some smaller markets that were served by AirTran, and CEO Gary Kelly now says the company sees no advantage in keeping the smaller planes.

I will concede that you were originally told that the 717's would remain until 2017 if you will concede that GK changed that tune after AIP1 was not sent to membership ratification. Prior to the vote you were told there was a distinct possibility that the 717 would exit much more quickly.

The presentation to AirTran pilots notes that Southwest executives briefed union leadership on Plan B after the first deal was rejected. Executives said Southwest must reexamine its options due to a softening economy, high jet fuel costs and "unforeseen difficulties with AirTran integration." Those issues include "difficulty weaning" AirTran from $200 million a year in revenue from baggage fees and difficulty integrating AirTran's Boeing 717s, according to the presentation.


http://www.ajc.com/news/business/southwest-raises-possibility-of-alternate-plan-for/nQMdG/

That was YOUR'RE managements decision. If you say they had no intention of ever keeping the 717, and you RSW pilots knew it. Then you allowed your management to screw you. Many RSW pilots like to post all the articles that point to the 717 leaving, yet you said nothing to your union or your company to get special wording in the SLI to protect your seats. We were told by SWA before the second deal was signed that the 717 would stay to the end of their lease. But you RSWA guys knew all the time they would'nt, and you still voted for the deal. If you like I can re post where you, red,bubba and others continually remind us how dumb we were to believe the 717 would stay.

Again, you can't rewrite history. The facts are the facts. Every article and every bold statement was written BEFORE the vote! If you weren't reading this stuff and comprehending it, you weren't paying attention. Prior to the first agreement not going to a membership vote I will certainly agree that the 717 was part of the long term plan, BUT it was made VERY clear that the 717 was not a portion of the long term plan from that point forward. I was reading ALL of this and was understandably nervous about the plan going forward that did not include 88 airframes but did include all the pilots associated with those aircraft. Please refute these claims that were made public through virtually every media outlet available if you can. The moves were telegraphed long before they were executed, that is irrefutable. If you claim you were powerless to stop the freight train, I understand, since I was there with you. If you are claiming no one could see this coming, you are flat out wrong and the evidence is very clear on that point.

 

[Ty Webb]

Howard, this stuff was hashed over on this forum long ago. I doubt anyone has the enthusiam to do it again, but a site search should bring it up for your perusal.

Rest assured, we had the same qualms as you, but were placated by a bid, an award, and a base announcement, plus face-to-face assurances that the aircraft would be staying. My award was SWA717 CA.

You may be disappointed, think how we must feel.

 

[Britpilot]

No it isn't. Yours is


Fml, for responding to this crap

Likewise.

Let me see, who was it that produced the "Hired Not Acquired" decals?
Who was it that was yelling "Staple, staple, staple" at every chance on this forum?
"Who was it that suggested we "won the lottery" and even threw two lottery tickets on the pedestal of one of our airplanes while jump seating?

Yeah, you guys aren't arrogant, no way.

 

[waveflyer]

Who was it that actually thought they could get relative seniority?

It's not arrogant to protect what's ours- your expectations were never going to be met- but I'm too slowly realizing you guys being pissed isn't my problem- good luck