Airtran MEC voted no

[Ty Webb]

Is that the same as going to one of those Canadian establishments to observe "native folk dancing"?

Bubba

I'm guessing it's a "Shoe Bar".

You know, the kind of place where the ladies only wear shoes.

 

[canyonblue]

I'm guessing it's a "Shoe Bar".

You know, the kind of place where the ladies only wear shoes.

That's freakin funny. :laugh:

 

[DonVerita]

Interesting flashback.

Well since you just had to bring that up again, I guess it's time for another memory refresher.

Arbitration would have been the road taken had it not been for YOUR management (specifically GK) that decided to violate the protocol arrangement by stepping in and leveling threats, veiled or otherwise, towards the ATN pilot group regarding non-integration. This was supposed to be a SLI-only discussion between the two unions, period. The Process Agreement had a mechanism --which both sides signed-- that said if the two parties could not come to an agreement then it would go to binding arbitration. Do you remember that? Do you also remember how adament GK was that he did not want to go to arbitration? It wasn't his call, he knew it, and he saw that this whole thing was headed that way because SWAPA just couldn't bring themselves to be "fair and equitable" regarding seniority by going with at least Date of Hire. Reason: Excessive arrogance and feelings of self superiority. Que GK. When someone holds a gun to your head and says vote for this or I'll pull the trigger, most people wouldn't risk their life (or in this case, career) second guessing if there was a bullet in the chamber or not. All of this done with a whisper in the ear to SWAPA of the Delta 717 sublease so Steve Chase could "capture more Captain seats".

SWAPA has poisened the well for decades. Anyone who tells you differently is either a junior F/O and thus had nothing to lose; or is lieing to your face. Either way, you'll find that the OAT pilots will make every effort to try and get along with the OSW pilots, but...we will never forget.

And with that, I'm done with this. Enjoy your perch. 2015 will be here soon enough.

 

[SWAdude]

Well since you just had to bring that up again, I guess it's time for another memory refresher.

Arbitration would have been the road taken had it not been for YOUR management (specifically GK) that decided to violate the protocol arrangement by stepping in and leveling threats, veiled or otherwise, towards the ATN pilot group regarding non-integration. This was supposed to be a SLI-only discussion between the two unions, period. The Process Agreement had a mechanism --which both sides signed-- that said if the two parties could not come to an agreement then it would go to binding arbitration. Do you remember that? Do you also remember how adament GK was that he did not want to go to arbitration? It wasn't his call, he knew it, and he saw that this whole thing was headed that way because SWAPA just couldn't bring themselves to be "fair and equitable" regarding seniority by going with at least Date of Hire. Reason: Excessive arrogance and feelings of self superiority. Que GK. When someone holds a gun to your head and says vote for this or I'll pull the trigger, most people wouldn't risk their life (or in this case, career) second guessing if there was a bullet in the chamber or not. All of this done with a whisper in the ear to SWAPA of the Delta 717 sublease so Steve Chase could "capture more Captain seats".

SWAPA has poisened the well for decades. Anyone who tells you differently is either a junior F/O and thus had nothing to lose; or is lieing to your face. Either way, you'll find that the OAT pilots will make every effort to try and get along with the OSW pilots, but...we will never forget.

And with that, I'm done with this. Enjoy your perch. 2015 will be here soon enough.

This is full of no fact but how you chose to see things. You feel your well has been "poisened" but most all on the combined list do not.

This was not ever going be an SLI that resembled two airlines merging. It was going to resemble a much smaller second tier regional carrier being sold to a much larger, much more well established, nationally reputable carrier.

Southwest Airlines spent 1.5 billion to make for a better SWA and that would have been anti-productive if GK would have let the pilot union of ATN push SWA around. Which was what appeared the MEC was doing after SL1 was denied.

GK voiced concerns and some of your group equate that as a gun to the head. He spoke in realities of this business and some couldn't cope and turned these realities into threats. He never said or insinuated that "you take this deal or else". Saying otherwise is not being truthful to yourself.

Your old management sold you without protecting one employee. Now if you want to be reasonable with your anger, start there.

 

[Ty Webb]

This is full of no fact but how you chose to see things. You feel your well has been "poisened" but most all on the combined list do not.

This was not ever going be an SLI that resembled two airlines merging. It was going to resemble a much smaller second tier regional carrier being sold to a much larger, much more well established, nationally reputable carrier.

Southwest Airlines spent 1.5 billion to make for a better SWA and that would have been anti-productive if GK would have let the pilot union of ATN push SWA around. Which was what appeared the MEC was doing after SL1 was denied.

GK voiced concerns and some of your group equate that as a gun to the head. He spoke in realities of this business and some couldn't cope and turned these realities into threats. He never said or insinuated that "you take this deal or else". Saying otherwise is not being truthful to yourself.

Your old management sold you without protecting one employee. Now if you want to be reasonable with your anger, start there.

Whatever gets ya through the night. :laugh:

 

[HowardBorden]

Well since you just had to bring that up again, I guess it's time for another memory refresher.

Arbitration would have been the road taken had it not been for YOUR management (specifically GK) that decided to violate the protocol arrangement by stepping in and leveling threats, veiled or otherwise, towards the ATN pilot group regarding non-integration. This was supposed to be a SLI-only discussion between the two unions, period. The Process Agreement had a mechanism --which both sides signed-- that said if the two parties could not come to an agreement then it would go to binding arbitration. Do you remember that?

Absolutely incorrect the Process agreement was entered into by all FOUR parties: SWA, SWAPA, AirTran and ALPA. All parties were specifically authorized to negotiate in this process. From the Process Agreement:

THEREFORE, Southwest and AirTran (the “Companies”), on behalf of themselves and their wholly-owned affiliates, SWAPA (acting on behalf of the pilots in the service of Southwest Airlines), ALPA (acting on behalf of the pilots in the service of AirTran), and their respective Seniority Merger Committees (the “Merger Committees”) as duly created and authorized by SWAPA and ALPA respectively (each such Merger Committee, SWAPA, ALPA and the Companies is a “Party” under this Agreement)

There was no way to exclude SWA. SWA controlled the purse strings. SWA was the only party that could sign off on any financial matters that directly effected the company i.e.- when AT pilots would begin receiving SWAPA pay rates etc. Bold highlights were added by me.

 

[Just thinking]

"There was no way to exclude SWA. SWA controlled the purse strings. SWA was the only party that could sign off on any financial matters that directly effected the company i.e.- when AT pilots would begin receiving SWAPA pay rates etc.".................

Exactly........... the union reps were to negotiate the seniority list.....
That process got short changed when gk interjected himself into the process that was agreed to by all parties.

 

[madjack]

Hey start thinking,

SWA had every right to do what it did...

 

[madjack]

DV

History lesson: Your MEC did not let the negotiated SL9 go out for vote (a horrific mistake)...then the majority revolted and you took SL10...now u feel bad...

 

[Ty Webb]

DV

History lesson: Your MEC did not let the negotiated SL9 go out for vote (a horrific mistake)...then the majority revolted and you took SL10...now u feel bad...

If you really believed that, you'd be at peace with it, and wouldn't feel the need to keep regurgitating your version of events.

Newsflash: Nobody cares what your version of events are . . . or mine, or anybody else's, but reading your version is getting pretty stale.

. . . If you don't hear from me going forward, it's not because I suddenly agree with you, it's because I've put you on my "ignore list".

 

[madjack]

The truth never gets stale

 

[waveflyer]

You guys are STILL talking about this- ? Seriously?
It got stupid to keep rolling in this a year ago
Any new info?
Anybody going to change their minds?
It is what it is- just don't see the point in going over it

 

[dicko]

The truth never gets stale

The truth is not a cake. If you realized that, you might not be quite so mad .... Jack

 

[737tanker]

Arbitration would have been the road taken

Not going to arbitration worked out better for the AirTran pilots because arbitration would not have been even close to being finished when SWA announced the 717s were going to Delta. Without the 717s coming to SWA it would have been hard for the arbitrators to have even given the AirTran pilots what they got in SL10.

 

[PCL_128]

Not going to arbitration worked out better for the AirTran pilots because arbitration would not have been even close to being finished when SWA announced the 717s were going to Delta. Without the 717s coming to SWA it would have been hard for the arbitrators to have even given the AirTran pilots what they got in SL10.

Arbitrators make their decisions based upon pre-merger career expectations, not based upon after-merger management decisions.

 

[SWA/FO]

Hey PCL how many honorary degrees do you have?

An honorary degree[1] or a degree honoris causa (Latin: "for the sake of the honor") is an academic degree for which a university (or other degree-awarding institution) has waived the usual requirements, such as matriculation, residence, study, and the passing of examinations. The degree is typically a doctorate or, less commonly, a master's degree, and may be awarded to someone who has no prior connection with the academic institution.

 

[SWAdude]

Whatever gets ya through the night. :laugh:

Means no difference to me no matter the dreamy outcome.

All of you characters would have been junior to me no matter.

And in reality, the more the AT guys talk like they got screwed, the better I feel for our guys.

 

[HowardBorden]

"There was no way to exclude SWA. SWA controlled the purse strings. SWA was the only party that could sign off on any financial matters that directly effected the company i.e.- when AT pilots would begin receiving SWAPA pay rates etc.".................

Exactly........... the union reps were to negotiate the seniority list.....
That process got short changed when gk interjected himself into the process that was agreed to by all parties.

You are incorrect the process agreement specifically invited all 4 parties into the process and even went so far as specifically stating that all 4 parties preferred direct negotiations as the way to accomplish an integrated seniority list. The facts are the facts. You may feel that SWA interjected themselves into the process, but the fact remains that they were directly invited there by the process agreement signed by all four parties.

"WHEREAS, Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (“SWAPA”), the Air Line Pilots Association (“ALPA”), Southwest and AirTran desire to utilize an alternative process as set forth in this Agreement for the creation of an Integrated Master Seniority List;..."

"THEREFORE, Southwest and AirTran (the “Companies”), on behalf of themselves and their wholly-owned affiliates, SWAPA (acting on behalf of the pilots in the service of Southwest Airlines), ALPA (acting on behalf of the pilots in the service of AirTran), and their respective Seniority Merger Committees (the “Merger Committees”) as duly created authorized by SWAPA and ALPA respectively (each such Merger Committee, SWAPA, ALPA and the Companies is a “Party” under this Agreement)..."

In documents to shareholders concerning the anticipated acquisition Southwest asserted its position that SWA would be directly involved in the integrated seniority list process.:

"Such process consists first of direct negotiations between the incumbent unions with the assistance of the companies and second, if integration cannot be achieved through agreement, submitting the seniority integration to binding arbitration by a neutral arbitrator."

 

[400ADude]

well since you just had to bring that up again, i guess it's time for another memory refresher.

Arbitration would have been the road taken had it not been for your management (specifically gk) that decided to violate the protocol arrangement by stepping in and leveling threats, veiled or otherwise, towards the atn pilot group regarding non-integration. This was supposed to be a sli-only discussion between the two unions, period. The process agreement had a mechanism --which both sides signed-- that said if the two parties could not come to an agreement then it would go to binding arbitration. Do you remember that? Do you also remember how adament gk was that he did not want to go to arbitration? It wasn't his call, he knew it, and he saw that this whole thing was headed that way because swapa just couldn't bring themselves to be "fair and equitable" regarding seniority by going with at least date of hire. Reason: Excessive arrogance and feelings of self superiority. Que gk. When someone holds a gun to your head and says vote for this or i'll pull the trigger, most people wouldn't risk their life (or in this case, career) second guessing if there was a bullet in the chamber or not. All of this done with a whisper in the ear to swapa of the delta 717 sublease so steve chase could "capture more captain seats".

Swapa has poisened the well for decades. Anyone who tells you differently is either a junior f/o and thus had nothing to lose; or is lieing to your face. Either way, you'll find that the oat pilots will make every effort to try and get along with the osw pilots, but...we will never forget.

And with that, i'm done with this. Enjoy your perch. 2015 will be here soon enough.

we shall overcome we shall overcome we shall overcome

 

[madjack]

but...we will never forget.

Oh yeah you will...after a couple 5ths and 20ths...