Airtran MEC Update

[Kharma Police]

Deleted

 

[redflyer65]

(all had mostly relative seniority throughout each award)



Bye Bye---General Lee

Apples to oranges General.

1-DL/NW was a more of a merger of equals. Career expectations were very, very similiar.

2- SW is acquiring a smaller carrier. Along with a massive difference in career expectation between the two pilot groups.

Big, big difference. The arbitor (if it ever gets there) will see that plainly.

 

[MCDU]

Relative seniority always rewards the younger group with less time. The younger group get their DOH and the other group with more time gets slotted in. With relative, you will always have one group that loves the outcome. It is a win win for one group.

Delta, AWA, Republic and now Airtran are all big fans on Relative. I wonder why. Being placed ahead of someone with less time has to be a windfall.
Hell will freeze over if any Airtran pilots get put ahead of any SWA pilots with a DOH less then the SWA pilot. Relative seniority is a land grab by a younger group with less time.

To bad pilots are the only work group that abandoned the golden standard of DOH. We would not be infighting and could concentrate on getting better contracts instead of trying to figure out who deserves more. There is a reason why all other Unions support DOH.

I support DOH for Airtran pilots and certain restrictions to protect the capt seats and positions they brought.

M

 

[XRMEFLYER]

GL,
This isn't a merger like dl/nw or us/aw it is an acquisition by SWA of a much smaller carrier.

You talk about unity and not having thousands of pissed off employees after it is done. What is better, 1700 (or more likely 300-400) pissed off former AT pilots or 6000 severely pissed SWA pilots?

Gary Kelly isn't going to throw away 40 years of good business nor is SWAPA going to allow a few hundred AT pilots who want more than they deserve screw it up.

We will welcome the AirTran pilots with open arms when they come into our family in their rightful place.

The sooner they see where that rightful place is the sooner they will be welcomed. If they never see it, well....

What exactly is our "rightful place" Bill?

 

[Bake]

What exactly is our "rightful place" Bill?

Just curious, What is it to you XRMEFLYER? The thing is I believe there are about 7700 different answers to that question and then there are an exponential amount of answers that we could all live with. Right now it is all about each union protecting its members and having leverage and applying that leverage in a way that does the least damage to us ALL.

Respectfully

 

[DonVerita]

Apples to oranges General.

1-DL/NW was a more of a merger of equals. Career expectations were very, very similiar.

2- SW is acquiring a smaller carrier. Along with a massive difference in career expectation between the two pilot groups.

Big, big difference. The arbitor (if it ever gets there) will see that plainly.

Redflyer...the majority of your posts appear to be ones of condescension.

A smaller carrier? AirTran is a Major airline just like SWA is. You may have more pilots on your seniority list at this point in time by virtue of longevity, but that doesn't mean that you are any better (or worse) than any AirTran pilot.

"Massive difference in career expectation"? Says who? You? AirTran pilots have the capability to upgrade to Captain much quicker than a SWA pilot does. I expected to upgrade in 5 years. Did it in 4.

The career expection of every AirTran pilot is to progress to the Left seat as soon as possible, achieve the highest pay possible along with the best quality of life possible. How is that any different than the career expectation of every SWA pilot?

 

[General Lee]

Apples to oranges General.

1-DL/NW was a more of a merger of equals. Career expectations were very, very similiar.

2- SW is acquiring a smaller carrier. Along with a massive difference in career expectation between the two pilot groups.

Big, big difference. The arbitor (if it ever gets there) will see that plainly.

How about USAir and AWA? Both weren't doing great financially (AWA a bit better than USAir at the time), and SWA and AT are currently profitable LCCs. USAir was a lot larger than AWA, yet after looking at the differences (USAir did INTL flying with A330s--so they got the top 500 spots), it was mostly relative after the top 500.

You can't escape it. SWAPA's current treatment of AT ALPA will not result in a "friendly" agreement, especially if SWAPA excludes them from anything with your management. That aint a "joint" contract. So, to spite you, they may go for the arbitration route, and that may give you something to be upset about. Excluding them might be the dumbest thing SWAPA has done, SO FAR.......

And SWA was the aquiring carrier, but so far that hasn't meant much to any recent arbitration. So what? AT could have aquired SWA, even though it would have cost them a heck of a lot more. Career expectations? You are one more 9-11 away from the unemployment line. You expect to be at a profitable LCC. So do they. It won't make a big difference. You are trying to manage their expectations, and really, you can't. You will be rolling the dice with any arbitrator, and he will see value in AT's ATL hub, extra LGA slots, and new DCA slots. You are naive to think your arbitration will be different than the others. It won't, and your current handling of the AT ALPA group will ensure it goes there.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jonjuan]

You are trying to manage their expectations, and really, you can't.

And that right there pretty much sums up the swalpa point of view.

 

[redflyer65]

achieve the highest pay possible along with the best quality of life possible. How is that any different than the career expectation of every SWA pilot?

Thanks for making my point. It's worth over one million dollars in pilot pay differences between AAI and SW. I would say that's a pretty big difference in career expectations would you?

I'm not saying AAI wouldn't have strived to achieve those gains, but when they do it overnight with another groups contract then that qualifies as a windfall for one group. How am I wrong? The pay differences alone are 60-80%.

Not trying to be condending at all, just stating the facts as they are.

 

[General Lee]

Redflyer...the majority of your posts appear to be ones of condescension.

A smaller carrier? AirTran is a Major airline just like SWA is. You may have more pilots on your seniority list at this point in time by virtue of longevity, but that doesn't mean that you are any better (or worse) than any AirTran pilot.

"Massive difference in career expectation"? Says who? You? AirTran pilots have the capability to upgrade to Captain much quicker than a SWA pilot does. I expected to upgrade in 5 years. Did it in 4.

The career expection of every AirTran pilot is to progress to the Left seat as soon as possible, achieve the highest pay possible along with the best quality of life possible. How is that any different than the career expectation of every SWA pilot?

But Don, Red thinks the SWA aquisition of AT is more like DL aquiring COMAIR......?????? That is what he wrote anyway....crazy.

Don't let him manage your expectations. Arbitration will fix everything.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Thanks for making my point. It's worth over one million dollars in pilot pay differences between AAI and SW. I would say that's a pretty big difference in career expectations would you?

I'm not saying AAI wouldn't have strived to achieve those gains, but when they do it overnight with another groups contract then that qualifies as a windfall for one group. How am I wrong? The pay differences alone are 60-80%.

Not trying to be condending at all, just stating the facts as they are.

That is the reason SWAPA doesn't want to do the JOINT contract first. After that is complete, every one knows what their expectations are for pay--because new rates are infront of them. Then, a NEUTRAL decides where to put everyone on a list. SWAPA doesn't want that, at all. Too bad, and it is fostering discontent as we speak. But hey, after it is all over, how about you all just shake hands, and then kiss the hands of SWA Captains (on the AF Academy rings)......????


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[texman]

All need to chill. Until the two air carriers merge, then we can see the big picture.

 

[GuppyWN]

I have come to the conclusion that Southwest and Airtran pilots could play nice on here if it weren't for General Lee.

I have also come to the conclusion that everyone here keeps taking his bait.

Gup

 

[Kharma Police]

I have come to the conclusion that Southwest and Airtran pilots could play nice on here if it weren't for General Lee.

I have also come to the conclusion that everyone here keeps taking his bait.

Gup

What's the big deal? The General just says that this should go to arbitration and for some reason you guys go crazy when he brings it up. It's not like he purposely tries to flame bait by posting internal e-mails or anything............

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

It's not like he purposely tries to flame bait by posting internal e-mails or anything............

You are right. He just purposely tries to flame bait.....period.

It is obvious to all of us his agenda. Delta....Atlanta.....SWA.....

Come on. The more he pits us against ourselves the more he feels like he is protecting his own turf. He use to slam both Airtran and SWA. Now that Airtran will be SWA he spends precious minutes of his life trying to get us to hate each other. And it appears to be working for some.

Unfortunately the only winner on this board may become the general himself. And his neurotic need to control. Its not a hobby with 16000 posts. Its a sickness.

He is hurting the Airtran pilots and I believe that is his ultimate objective.

No ones opinion on this board is going to change the outcome. Only the way we feel about each other. And that is very dangerous.

 

[CaptAntoineMack]

I must make a correction, the Germeral (purposely said that way) has 14,464 posts. Not that it changes anything.

 

[desolo]

well said capt....

 

[ivauir]

What exactly is our "rightful place" Bill?

If only there was some process to determine this ...

You know, a process where each side could present there case, and at the end of the day, everyone knew that their interests were represented ...

Can you imagine a world in which we each had pilot advocates who used the best legal teams they could find to right solution for each of these integrations.

STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS!

This board is rife with people who have trashed SWA for years. Ignore them. Let them stew in their misinformed hate.

 

[RLAblows]

The General also points out that a JOINT contract should have been negotiated, and AT union shouldn't be excluded from the negotiation process.
On the other hand you have Redflyer and his extremely elitist attitude towards AirTran pilots, for that matter all airline pilots who fly 737s. He says, because SWA pilots make more money then all the other 737 pilots in the industry they are better. That seems to be his logic. He keeps telling everyone AT pilots have no value, while completely ignoring the words of his leader Gary Kelly on the value of AirTran. When I say AirTran I am including its employees. After all, AT didn't become the profitable airline that was giving SWA a run for its money without us.
As far as expectations go, that's in the eyes of the beholder. I fully expected AT to keep growing, and we were up until the merger announcement. We had upgrade classes running and hiring weekly. We were taking deliveries and had plenty of future deliveries coming that would have given me my upgrade. As far as money goes. I received a 20% raise out of our 2nd contract as an airline. Not a bad pay increase. If I were to get another raise like that in five years it would be great, but either way, I could EXPECT to get another raise from negotiations.
SWA is 40 years old, and we have figured out a way to compete against the machine enough so that it made Gary Kelly buy us. My point is, if we had grown that quick, enough to become a threat, how much bigger could we have become in another 20 years?
Now this is all speculation, but so is everything about the future of this industry including SWA. SWA might be the flavor of the month now, but so was United in the 90's. I wish no ill will on anyone here and I hope that all pilots finally get a break, but constantly saying the AirTran pilots have no value, is getting tiresome. We all know that SWA pilots make a great living and have a good quality of life, but they are no better then anybody else.
I hope that something good comes out of our negotiations/meeting next week with your MC, but I really believe the General makes a good point. IF SWAPA doesn't communicate with ALPA and continues to do everything in secret, it could get very ugly.

 

[jonjuan]

Well said, RLA. swalpa needs this merger more than atalpa as the expectations at AT were soon to outpace those at SW. Staying separate, the future expectations for junior AT FOs would very quickly outpace junior SW FOs. The arbitrator will certainly see this. In any case, the results will be over before anyone expects.

 

[RLAblows]

Wasn't meant to be a shot at the SWA pilots as a whole just the ones who are treating AirTran pilots like second class citizens. I have nothing but respect for SWA and their accomplishments. If only all airlines would mimic SWA.

 

[texman]

Rla, brother you talk about growth that AT would have. You need to read your company financial reports.

 

[GuppyWN]

The General also points out that a JOINT contract should have been negotiated, and AT union shouldn't be excluded from the negotiation process.

JCBA or Joint Contract is only with an ALPA/ALPA transaction.

I have hopes that Tuesday will be the beginning of a kinder, gentler negotiations and pave the way to a smooth transition.

Have a great Sunday my future Airtran friends!

Gup

 

[RLAblows]

maybe I should take a better look, but I can tell you for a fact we were hiring and upgrading during the time of the merger announcement and ongoing class dates were being announced through the next year.

 

[737tanker]

SWAPA doesn't want to do the JOINT contract first. After that is complete, every one knows what their expectations are for pay--because new rates are infront of them.

The AirTrans pilots already know what their new rates will be because all they have to do is look at the current SWAPA contract. However GK has already stated that the AirTran employees will operate under their current as long as AirTran and SWA operate separately then when combined all employee will be under the respective SWA contract. Another thing to remember is that SWAPA can't speak for SWA, and SWA can't talk to AirTran employees until the AirTran shareholders and the Fed government approve the acquisition.
Quick question for General Lee how did that relative seniority work out when Delta bought parts of PanAm? I remember now there was no relative seniority it was done with no regard to seniority as only the Airbus, and some 727, pilots were allowed to go.

 

[General Lee]

You are right. He just purposely tries to flame bait.....period.

It is obvious to all of us his agenda. Delta....Atlanta.....SWA.....

Come on. The more he pits us against ourselves the more he feels like he is protecting his own turf. He use to slam both Airtran and SWA. Now that Airtran will be SWA he spends precious minutes of his life trying to get us to hate each other. And it appears to be working for some.

Unfortunately the only winner on this board may become the general himself. And his neurotic need to control. Its not a hobby with 16000 posts. Its a sickness.

He is hurting the Airtran pilots and I believe that is his ultimate objective.

No ones opinion on this board is going to change the outcome. Only the way we feel about each other. And that is very dangerous.

I am just trying to point out the OBVIOUS, that there is something strange going on here. Of course the SWA guys don't want me to bring anything up, they want what they want. Instead, they try to blame ME. Why? I want everyone to get a FAIR deal, something the SWA guys don't think should happen to anyone else but them. They can't see the VALUE in the merger/aquisition of Airtran. Guys like Red equate it with Delta buying Comair, even though Airtran and SWA have the same type planes. That is just NUTS. (thanks HERB, he'd be going NUTS himself if he knew what was going on here)

The Airtran guys need to push ALPA to get in there with SWAPA and SWA management, and be a part of the process. IF they are boxed out, then that should mean that there will be no cooperation and that something nefarious is going on, and from that point I would request immediate arbitration, and get help from Congress (use your lobbysts) to get hearings in front of the Aviation Sub-Committee to find out what really is going on here. Make Gary Kelly testify under oath. You Airtran guys have to get a movement going, and try to get yourself into the negotiations. Talk about UNITY. I don't see much with SWAPA.

Am I trying to create a riot here? NO. I think each group should be treated fairly, with a nuetral deciding what is fair. What is wrong with that, unless you don't want something that is fair? That is wrong.

And of course I still haven't gotten a response from CHASE. That is telling. Can he tell me why SWAPA wouldn't allow AT ALPA to be a part of the management negotiations? Sounds almost USAPA-like..


And could you tell me again why I am hurting Airtran pilots? What? I am trying to point out the obvious. And as far as DL and ATL and SWA, who cares? Someone will compete against DL in ATL, either SWA or Airtran. How can I derail a merger?? You are giving me God-like powers, and for that, I THANK YOU. Wow.

You are right, nobody on this board will be able to change the outcome, unless you figure out what is really happening, and that AT ALPA Memo is really telling. That type of stuff needs to come out, so the rest of us who have gone through a merger and SLI can read it and warn you guys what may or may not happen. What is wrong with knowledge? The SWA guys on here don't want you to know until after it is over. It almost seems like they are pro-Mubarak thugs in the streets of Cairo. Let FREEDOM RING!!!! Have a great day.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[slaquer5]

I am just trying to point out the OBVIOUS, that there is something strange going on here. Of course the SWA guys don't want me to bring anything up, they want what they want. Instead, they try to blame ME. Why? I want everyone to get a FAIR deal,
Bye Bye--General Lee

O that's rich, a SWA hater just wanting all to be happy. I can just imagine what some SWA pilot did to your wife.

 

[livintheredream]

I know that FI is the Red Headed stepchild of the internet but some of you SW guys need to shut your CEO up ASAP. He is not helping your cause to make this a USAIR. We (AT) have been treated like crap for the past 6 years and are very happy to join forces but if it gets hostile its nothing new to us. We will come out fighting. Thats all we know. Thats not what anyone wants so lets keep it to just chest thumping.

By Ben Mutzabaugh, USA TODAY

Updated: 02/27/2011 10:59am

Southwest CEO Gary Kelly says it's "absolutely imperative" for his carrier to complete its planned merger with AirTran, according to Dow Jones Newswires

The union would join the nation's two largest low-cost carriers, with Kelly arguing the deal has become increasingly important against the back-drop of steadily rising fuel costs.

"The biggest impediment to growth in the airline industry is the high cost of jet fuel," Kelly is quoted as saying by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

From GK
Absent the merger, both carriers will be constrained and even hard-pressed to maintain current capacity levels. This transaction is the single best initiative we have to preserve jobs and maintain service to communities. It gives us the best chance to grow jobs and add new service to our communities.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Doesn't Bill Nelson purport to be a SWA pilot? I just figured someone who uses the words "righful place" twice in the same sentence has some idea of what that is and might share it with the rest of us. I guess not.

As for you Bake, the answer to your question "what's it to me?" should be pretty obvious.