Airtran MEC Update

[slaquer5]

Chase, how do you come up with 7300 pilots. Once again you have lost me with your made up info.


Secondly, why would you. Respond to GL? He is a kid in jr. High.

 

[Uppercrust]

Does anybody know if Guadolupe Airlines will be recruiting at the Job Fair?

 

[redflyer65]

Ahhhh....some little guy got his feelings hurt. Run back to mommy's big arms now.

Such a deep and thought out response. Thanks so much for making my point. Classic.

 

[redflyer65]

And you comparing your merger with Delta merging with Comair is just wrong. Comair doesn't have the same planes, or fly different routes (INTL). Airtran has equal plane sizes to yours, is a LCCs, and flies to places you don't. Bad comparison, and you know that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

So if Comair flew the A330 and 747 at a 60-80% reduced rate from Delta you would readily show them the LUV with realitive seniority at Delta?

I think it's a much closer comparison, and you know it. (nice how you left that part out of your post though) Re-read the Air Midwest award Gen.

I'm not hating anyone. SWAPA is just protecting their pilots the best they can. Just as AAI ALPA will.

 

[27 driver]

Chase, how do you come up with 7300 pilots. Once again you have lost me with your made up info.


Secondly, why would you. Respond to GL? He is a kid in jr. High.

I think he is just adding your approx 5600 + our approx 1700 pilots.

 

[RLAblows]

Redflyer, if you go to SWAPALUV.com your own union makes comparisons to the Northwest/Delta merger in terms of how they would like it to go. With open communications. They refer to the USAirways merger as what they don't want to happen. I think that General Lee was trying to make the same point.

Gup, thanks for the kind words and I hope that we will all be part of the same team in the future. Just getting tired of all the mud being thrown back and forth.

 

[General Lee]

So if Comair flew the A330 and 747 at a 60-80% reduced rate from Delta you would readily show them the LUV with realitive seniority at Delta?

I think it's a much closer comparison, and you know it. (nice how you left that part out of your post though) Re-read the Air Midwest award Gen.

I'm not hating anyone. SWAPA is just protecting their pilots the best they can. Just as AAI ALPA will.

Air Midwest award? Why bring up obscure awards that are not relavent or current? Current arbitrators are looking at recent awards as precedent. That is what SWAPA fears. The awards you will be dealing with are the Nicalau award, Bloch award, and most recent Eichen award at F9/RAH. (all had mostly relative seniority throughout each award)

If Comair had flown A330s or 744s, and somehow we had merged with them, then their senior pilots would have been fairly high up on the seniority totem pole. If DL merged with a new airline that just got A330s two weeks ago, then arbitrators would have taken that into account. They have discretion to weigh things like longevity and plane size. (DL's 777s were smaller in size than NWA 744s, but they were treated equally by all 3 arbitrators) Southwest has been around longer than Airtran (Valuejet), so, as I have stated in the past, I think there would be more SWA guys at the top for the longevity reason. Maybe the top 300-400.

The pay issues were ironed out before the SLI in the DL/NWA case, and that helped smooth out some of the SLI tension, because people did get raises. And nobody that I knew of at DL ever thought NWA would be stapled, etc, and they didn't say that on FI either. Both of our airlines had gone through a BK, and both were legacies with INTL and domestic ops.

Airtran and SWA are both LCCs, both profitable, and both have same size aircraft. SWA has a larger operation, and AT has domestic and INTL ops. Pay rates don't matter in SLI, because in the life of a career, things happen like BK, and mergers. Just because SWA is profitable now, doesn't mean one more SWA overrun couldn't BK them next month. You just never know. Valuejet's MIA crash really did a number on them too.

And there is a difference between a union doing something for their members, and then not including the other union in any discussions. That does not create unity. When it comes to the SLI, I fully expect each side to have lawyers that will fight for their opinons on how the SLI should go. That makes sense. But why not include the other union in NON-SLI stuff? That doesn't make sense, unless there are talks going on to try to force one side to accept something not palatable. Again, you know I am right. Your merger is NOT starting off well, at all.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[birdman1]

It's an aquisition of Airtran with a merger of seniority list down the road. How far down the road is still to be determined.

Chase is right about how the future could turn out. It could be very exciting for everyone on the updated list.

General, everytime you try to compare this to NW/DL you lose credibility. Not even close to the same two companies as those two. Would be like DL merging with Comair. Try again..

"Would be like DL merging with Comair." LOL...okay redflyer then why are you big SWA guys buying AirTran? If you think you do not need them then please tell Gary Kelly not to buy AT. Then let's see if you can come up with a winning business plan to grow the LUV organically at a profit. The pilots and employees of AirTran Airways have worked very hard to build a successful airline. There was a time when big SWA was smaller than AirTran and had to go through some of the same issues that every successful business has gone through. Dude, it is not cool to kick somebody airline, and it is not cool to screw around with someone’s career. If you do not appreciate what the AirTran pilots bring, then do not buy their airline and leave their career alone.

 

[General Lee]

GL,

There is no cookbook to a "perfect" merger/acquisition. Each one is different, each scenario has more differences than similarities to past mergers/acquisitions. Using DL/NWA as the poster child is of no more value than using the RAH/F9 one.

That being said, SWAPA is taking the approach it is taking because its members (within the legal limits of BM and AM) have directed it to. If DL hadn't pursued what its members wanted, you and others would've have denounced them as not being representative of your own pilots.

As far as arrogance, it is an anonymous board, knowing who works for whom is difficult if not impossible at best. Attributing posts as representative of a pilot group would be like saying all DL are like you? They aren't are they? A search of the forum would find probably a 1 v 1 post that could make the same argument for AAI pilots but I know from my own experience the AAI pilots I have met have all been very similar to the pilots I fly with at SWA...top notch folks.

SWAPA has been communicating with the AT MEC unlike your statement. I can understand your confusion and misunderstanding since you are not employed by either airline and don't have access to all of the information.

The issue has been SWAPA hasn't agreed to the positions that the AT MEC has put forward....that doesn't mean they aren't communicating! If it does, then my wife and I haven't been communicating on many topics, nor my kids since we come to different conclusions many times.

Two good teams made up of honorable pilot who disagree....nothing sinister or "bad" about that. That doesn't necessarily mean someone is or should be "mad".

SWA is a part of that equation in the opinion of AT but if SWA doesn't wish to engage that isn't SWAPA's fault.

If at the end of the day the AT MEC finds it as a showstopper and doesn't wish to complete a Process Agreement because of it, then the AT MEC should get direction from their membership and let the chips fall where they may (kind of like arbitration). I'm fine with that and so should be the AAI pilots I would think.

As far as the website, it is an instrument to share information in as clear and concise manner as possible.

AAI has the opportunity to do the same and if they feel it is of value to their members and to the public, then that is great.

I'm all for transparency and I applaud SWAPA for putting the information out there. It may not excite some who read it; some obviously disagree with it but everyone is certainly better informed after reviewing the material.

Like anything however, there are many sides to the story and the bias is always there, it is only one side of the story. Readers certainly should evaluate multiple sources of information with the full understanding that those sources won't be without biases also.

Arbitration maybe the final result and if so, no worries from my standpoint or from many within AAI I suspect. It is not a sign of failure but one step in the process as I see it.

We'll all live with it and prosper as a result of either a negotiated settlement, mediated settlement or arbitrated settlement.

As far as a culture is concern, I'm confident the vast majority of new and old SWA pilots will see that it continues...that doesn't mean the result will not make for a few malcontents and those will populate and feed those on here and other places who hope for our failure....so nothing will have changed will it except there will be an airline with 7300 pilots focused on being the best airline possible. That bodes will for our future I contend. Cheers,

Chase,

Thanks for your civil response. So, are you saying that the AT MEC bulletin is incorrect? They seem to think that the communication between SWAPA and SWA management is lacking because it is LACKING THEM most of the time. Isn't that what it states? You are correct, I don't work for either airline in quesition, but I can read. Is that not what that memo states? Is it not a real AT ALPA MEC memo? They are dissappointed because they are not included in important issues. That would make me mad too. That is NOT fostering UNITY, something YOU NEED to make a successful merger work. I beleive UNITY is in the cookbook of successful mergers. Take a look at mergers so far that lacked it, like USAir. Do you want a similar result? Some people on this ANONYMOUS board seem to want to stay seperated, because they worked hard for THEIR PAY. Guess what? You won't have to give up ANY of your pay with this merger. You are not losing anything. Sure, they might gain a lot (the AT guys), and I say good for them, and you, since you gain a stronger company.

As far as the Airtran MEC not agreeing to certain things with SWAPA, why should SWAPA NOT agree to allowing AT pilots to have the SWAPA contract? I bet the AT guys would LOVE to have that great contract. Why wouldn't SWAPA want that, unless they want to hold something over the AT pilots' heads? UNITY? That aint Unity. SWAPA is following the orders of it's members, you say. What if 95% of the members state there should be a staple? Does that mean SWAPA should mandate that? They would be laughed at by every Arbitrator, and every other airline pilot out there. Come on, there has to be some common sense. I can see pushing for your SLI to be closer to what you think it should be with your lawyers during the SLI arbitration, but why not get a joint contract first? After a joint contract is done first (this was proven better than the USAir example with the SLI first), the SLI should be hammered out by lawyers and arbitrators if SWAPA and ALPA can't come up with a deal. Again, this was a PROVEN success. If you want to travel the USAir way with threats and hold outs, then go ahead and see where that leads you.

And, if this does not end well with most AT guys happy and most SWA guys happy, then you will have thousands of malcontents, kinda like USAir EAST and USAPA. Large, unhappy groups of pilots will make life miserable for GK and company, and there will be finger gestures shown in airport terminals, fights in jetways, and forced go-arounds on runways because they couldn't "safely" exit the runway in time. Think that doesn't happen? Ask any USAir East and West guy if it does.

Also, as GL, most regulars know that I like to stir the pot. I like to gode people, and have debates. I enjoy that. All in all, I mean no harm. I actually try to entertain people. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But, some of the SWA people on this board (I think they are SWA people, it is anonymous) don't seem like they are joking sometimes, especially on the AT subjects. That is why I say they seem overly cocky. Thanks again for your response.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bill Nelson]

GL,
This isn't a merger like dl/nw or us/aw it is an acquisition by SWA of a much smaller carrier.

You talk about unity and not having thousands of pissed off employees after it is done. What is better, 1700 (or more likely 300-400) pissed off former AT pilots or 6000 severely pissed SWA pilots?

Gary Kelly isn't going to throw away 40 years of good business nor is SWAPA going to allow a few hundred AT pilots who want more than they deserve screw it up.

We will welcome the AirTran pilots with open arms when they come into our family in their rightful place.

The sooner they see where that rightful place is the sooner they will be welcomed. If they never see it, well....

 

[slaquer5]

I think he is just adding your approx 5600 + our approx 1700 pilots.

Thanks, that was what I thought . You would think a very junior captain like chase would know how many pilots SWA has. But from reading some of his post on our other forum , I see that if he does not know he just makes it up.

 

[On Your Six]

Chase,

Thanks for your civil response. So, are you saying that the AT MEC bulletin is incorrect? They seem to think that the communication between SWAPA and SWA management is lacking because it is LACKING THEM most of the time. Isn't that what it states? You are correct, I don't work for either airline in quesition, but I can read. Is that not what that memo states? Is it not a real AT ALPA MEC memo? They are dissappointed because they are not included in important issues. That would make me mad too. That is NOT fostering UNITY, something YOU NEED to make a successful merger work. I beleive UNITY is in the cookbook of successful mergers. Take a look at mergers so far that lacked it, like USAir. Do you want a similar result? Some people on this ANONYMOUS board seem to want to stay seperated, because they worked hard for THEIR PAY. Guess what? You won't have to give up ANY of your pay with this merger. You are not losing anything. Sure, they might gain a lot (the AT
guys), and I say good for them, and you, since you gain a stronger company.

As far as the Airtran MEC not agreeing to certain things with SWAPA, why should SWAPA NOT agree to allowing AT pilots to have the SWAPA contract? I bet the AT guys would LOVE to have that great contract. Why wouldn't SWAPA want that, unless they want to hold something over the AT pilots' heads? UNITY? That aint Unity. SWAPA is following the orders of it's members, you say. What if 95% of the members state there should be a staple? Does that mean SWAPA should mandate that? They would be laughed at by every Arbitrator, and every other airline pilot out there. Come on, there has to be some common sense. I can see pushing for your SLI to be closer to what you think it should be with your lawyers during the SLI arbitration, but why not get a joint contract first? After a joint contract is done first (this was proven better than the USAir example with the SLI first), the SLI should be hammered out by lawyers and arbitrators if SWAPA and ALPA can't come up with a deal.
Again, this was a PROVEN success. If you want to travel the USAir way with threats and hold outs, then go ahead and see where that leads you.

And, if this does not end well with most AT guys happy and most SWA guys happy, then you will have thousands of malcontents, kinda like USAir EAST and USAPA. Large, unhappy groups of pilots will make life miserable for GK and company, and there will be finger gestures shown in airport terminals, fights in jetways, and forced go-arounds on runways because they couldn't "safely" exit the runway in time. Think that doesn't happen? Ask any USAir East and West guy if it does.

Also, as GL, most regulars know that I like to stir the pot. I like to gode
people, and have debates. I enjoy that. All in all, I mean no harm. I actually
try to entertain people. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But, some of the SWA people on this board (I think they are SWA people, it is anonymous) don't seem like they are joking sometimes, especially on the AT subjects. That is why I say they seem overly cocky. Thanks again for your response.


Bye Bye--General Lee

This all sounds like a SWAPA sponsored shakedown of the Airtran pilots, IMO. What a shame! I think Lee is correct when he asks why shouldnt SWAPA make sure the Airtran guys get the SWAPA contract now when the Southwest pilots won't lose a dime of their own? Is this just a good ole "stick up?" " Give us what we want, and then you can have what we have, but you might be a bit junior......sorry about that......we LUV you....."


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

GL,
This isn't a merger like dl/nw or us/aw it is an acquisition by SWA of a much smaller carrier.

You talk about unity and not having thousands of pissed off employees after it is done. What is better, 1700 (or more likely 300-400) pissed off former AT pilots or 6000 severely pissed SWA pilots?

Gary Kelly isn't going to throw away 40 years of good business nor is SWAPA going to allow a few hundred AT pilots who want more than they deserve screw it up.

We will welcome the AirTran pilots with open arms when they come into our family in their rightful place.

The sooner they see where that rightful place is the sooner they will be welcomed. If they never see it, well....

Bill,
When it comes to seniority, Gary Kelly can't dictate what happens. If he were to try the Guadalupe holdings threat (sounds to me kinda like a type of a "shakedown"), all trust would be lost, synergies would never materialize, and your merger would look like WW III. It would make USair look like a
wonderful integration. I bet Delta's management would like it, though. I also think ALPA and the Airtran pilots would sue and get both Sen Bond and McKaskill on their side, and Gary Kelly would have to testify in front if them on some committee hearing. That would be fun to watch if it happened.


OYS

 

[FlyinGuy]

Then let's see if you can come up with a winning business plan to grow the LUV organically at a profit.

Yep, those guys at SWA wish they could turn a profit every now and then!!! Hopefully one day they can figure out this airline thingy???

 

[Bill Nelson]

OYS,
I doubt Senator Bond will be holding any hearings soon. He got run out of town.

 

[On Your Six]

OYS,
I doubt Senator Bond will be holding any hearings soon. He got run out of town.

How abou McKaskil? I bet he/she is still interested. ALPA should look into that, use some PAC money to get a hearing for upper management at SWA and ask them under oath how they really feel?


OYS

 

[ivauir]

Funny how all the Delta guys are now huge AirTran fans.

Don't look now, but your ulterior motives are showing ...

 

[scoreboardII]

ALPA should look into that, use some PAC money to get a hearing for upper management at SWA and ask them under oath how they really feel?

Then it's surely a good thing ALPA doesn't ask for your opinion.

I don't know who "McKaskil" is but Sen McCaskil from AR, who doesn't even acknowledge she's a big "DEM" on her website anymore, won't be rippling the waters of the major airline supporting her state, hint, hint. I did find this interesting

PAC contributor to McCaskil:

ALPA

Now, wouldn't that be a conflict of interest and require her to recuse herself?

 

[redflyer65]

If you do not appreciate what the AirTran pilots bring, then do not buy their airline and leave their career alone.

Really birdman? Tell me again what the Airtran pilots bring. I mean specifically what part of the their contract is going to help the Southwest pilots? Even the contract you have right now wouldn't have happened without Southwest.

Your company brings some Aircraft orders and gates. That's why Gary was interested. Easy growth of the Southwest brand at a low price.

What's funny is that now that the Airtran pilot windfall is in question they start crying 'shakedown'.

 

[slaquer5]

Then it's surely a good thing ALPA doesn't ask for your opinion.

I don't know who "McKaskil" is but Sen McCaskil from AR, who doesn't even acknowledge she's a big "DEM" on her website anymore, won't be rippling the waters of the major airline supporting her state, hint, hint. I did find this interesting



Now, wouldn't that be a conflict of interest and require her to recuse herself?

I would not listen to onyoursix. She is just a SWA hater and an idiot to boot.