Airtran MEC Update

[chase]

A couple of givens as I read the TA and the response from the AAI MEC.

Two different pilot groups are engaged in negotiations to help their respective pilot groups to the max extent possible exclusive of the other groups benefits (no duh!).

Each have different opinions on the Transition Agreement; that makes perfect sense.

Both are speaking to their members and expressing their thoughts, concerns, pluses and minuses. To do otherwise would be foolish and not within their charter.

Each group of elected officials/negotiating members must deal with the political, economic and operational issues that in many cases are outside their control.

It is also only the 2nd or 3rd inning in a 9 inning game; we are all a long way from the final outcome with many more turns (many unpredictable to come I'm sure).

Getting excited and stringing together long opinions about what will or won't happen is as futile as predicting the final outcome of a 9 inning game after one rotation of the batting order.

AAI responded just as SWAPA would've or any union if faced with similar circumstances.

SWAPA negotiated in the same manner as AAI would've for a TA they positively felt benefited the pilots currently on the SWAPA seniority list....what else should've they have done?

AAI MEC has communicated with their members they aren't pleased with how things have gone down so far with respect to the TA; no shock since SWA rejected their request to discuss TA related issues. I hope no one thought AAI would find that experience positive?

I still look forward (if circumstances play out) to fly and work alongside AAI crewmembers and welcome you all to what will be a highly profitable airline and career for everyone.

Don't get discouraged or over enthusiastic that one side is winning nor that your team is losing but clearly communicate with each respective elected officials to your concerns and interests.

Back to your regular programming. :beer:

And as always, we have the streaker running across the field (GL) trying to get the attention and inflame the crowd. Leaving the game to those who are playing is just too much for some I guess

 

[RedDogC130]

please quit bringing common sense into FI...that detracts from the fun. Thanks

 

[Juniority]

It is also only the 2nd or 3rd inning in a 9 inning game

Actually, it appears we can't agree whether it's the 2nd or 3rd inning of an Aquisition or Merger (SWAPA thinks it's an aquisition and ALPA thinks it's a merger).

AAI responded just as SWAPA would've or any union if faced with similar circumstances

Circumstances? How can you talk circumstances when you can't even agree on the definition of the situation (it's that aquisition vs. merger thing again).

 

[sniper]

a couple of givens as i read the ta and the response from the aai mec.

Two different pilot groups are engaged in negotiations to help their respective pilot groups to the max extent possible exclusive of the other groups benefits (no duh!).

Each have different opinions on the transition agreement; that makes perfect sense.

Both are speaking to their members and expressing their thoughts, concerns, pluses and minuses. To do otherwise would be foolish and not within their charter.

Each group of elected officials/negotiating members must deal with the political, economic and operational issues that in many cases are outside their control.

It is also only the 2nd or 3rd inning in a 9 inning game; we are all a long way from the final outcome with many more turns (many unpredictable to come i'm sure).

Getting excited and stringing together long opinions about what will or won't happen is as futile as predicting the final outcome of a 9 inning game after one rotation of the batting order.

Aai responded just as swapa would've or any union if faced with similar circumstances.

Swapa negotiated in the same manner as aai would've for a ta they positively felt benefited the pilots currently on the swapa seniority list....what else should've they have done?

Aai mec has communicated with their members they aren't pleased with how things have gone down so far with respect to the ta; no shock since swa rejected their request to discuss ta related issues. I hope no one thought aai would find that experience positive?

I still look forward (if circumstances play out) to fly and work alongside aai crewmembers and welcome you all to what will be a highly profitable airline and career for everyone.

Don't get discouraged or over enthusiastic that one side is winning nor that your team is losing but clearly communicate with each respective elected officials to your concerns and interests.

Back to your regular programming. :beer:

And as always, we have the streaker running across the field (gl) trying to get the attention and inflame the crowd. Leaving the game to those who are playing is just too much for some i guess

very well said

 

[orangebellyav8r]

Very sad to see another carrier go down. Within 2 years Airtran goes with the likes of TWA, PanAm, Eastern. Been nice playing with all trainees. Best of luck and hope it all works out for you.

 

[SWA/FO]

Its an Acquisition.

What Does Acquisition Mean?
A corporate action in which a company buys most, if not all, of the target company's ownership stakes in order to assume control of the target firm.

 

[chase]

Orange,

I agree that AirTran will no longer exist within 2 yrs but I believe unlike the other pilots who were thrown out of jobs and then either retired from flying or were forced to take lower paying jobs at other carriers, AAI pilots will find themselves part of a team of pilots who also know how to and want to be as productive as possible, provide great customer service and contribute to the overall success of their new home at Southwest Airlines.

I can understand the nostalgia of seeing another airline's logo go away or callsign but I believe the Morris pilots would tell you they were glad their merger went the way it did; none of their pilots wish for the "good 'ole days" of being Morris pilots vs seeing where they are now.

You sight the history and ultimate demise of some of the worse tragedies in the airline industry. I'm optimistic history (and AAI pilots) will view the final outcome years from now as a benefit to their longterm financial success and job security.

Just my $.02.

My apologies, I'll try to be more pessimistic in the future.

 

[Kharma Police]

Its an Acquisition.

What Does Acquisition Mean?
A corporate action in which a company buys most, if not all, of the target company's ownership stakes in order to assume control of the target firm.

Thanks for clearing that up, I wasn't sure but I finally get it now, an acquisition.

 

[General Lee]

A couple of givens as I read the TA and the response from the AAI MEC.

Two different pilot groups are engaged in negotiations to help their respective pilot groups to the max extent possible exclusive of the other groups benefits (no duh!).

Each have different opinions on the Transition Agreement; that makes perfect sense.

Both are speaking to their members and expressing their thoughts, concerns, pluses and minuses. To do otherwise would be foolish and not within their charter.

Each group of elected officials/negotiating members must deal with the political, economic and operational issues that in many cases are outside their control.

It is also only the 2nd or 3rd inning in a 9 inning game; we are all a long way from the final outcome with many more turns (many unpredictable to come I'm sure).

Getting excited and stringing together long opinions about what will or won't happen is as futile as predicting the final outcome of a 9 inning game after one rotation of the batting order.

AAI responded just as SWAPA would've or any union if faced with similar circumstances.

SWAPA negotiated in the same manner as AAI would've for a TA they positively felt benefited the pilots currently on the SWAPA seniority list....what else should've they have done?

AAI MEC has communicated with their members they aren't pleased with how things have gone down so far with respect to the TA; no shock since SWA rejected their request to discuss TA related issues. I hope no one thought AAI would find that experience positive?

I still look forward (if circumstances play out) to fly and work alongside AAI crewmembers and welcome you all to what will be a highly profitable airline and career for everyone.

Don't get discouraged or over enthusiastic that one side is winning nor that your team is losing but clearly communicate with each respective elected officials to your concerns and interests.

Back to your regular programming. :beer:

And as always, we have the streaker running across the field (GL) trying to get the attention and inflame the crowd. Leaving the game to those who are playing is just too much for some I guess

Chase,

Thanks for my mention. The only reason I did any response initally is the EXTREME cockiness of most SWA pilots. If you want to look at any recent merger, you can look at a couple different approaches to merging lists and contracts. You can look at success, or failure. The DL/NWA merger is seen as a success, since the groups got together with very little arguing and a pay raise, and the company got beneficial "synergies" sooner, which helps the overall company. The USAir merger was the exact opposite, they never got a joint contract first (big mistake), and instead got the SLI first which the East didn't like. That has thrown all "synergies" out the window, which could have made USAir MORE profitable. Instead, they have two sides that hate each other, and that won't go away quietly. UAL and CAL haven't gotten together yet either with unity, and that means a longer wait. The only thing they currently agree on is more scope protection, which is a good thing. Pay, OTOH, is still a hot issue for them, unfortunately. Egos get in the way, and that is not good for anyone. SWAPA seems to be overflowing with ego, and that is obvious to everyone.

Your SWAPA team is NOT communicating with AT ALPA. It just isn't. You may think that is fine, but in the end it will spell disaster. Keep saying to everyone everything is FINE, when you know it is NOT. If SWAPA continues to try to exclude AT ALPA in negotiations, it will only lead to more animosity. Your famous culture is at risk here, because you have always bragged about how great it is, but it isn't being shown to ANYONE. We all can see how poorly the SWAPA people are treating their future "brothers". You need UNITY for contract talks, but not necessarily SLI talks. Lawyers will fight for that, but contract talks need everyone involved, and SWAPA is excluding AT ALPA, which will lead you down the wrong path, towards USAir II. I bet you are embarrassed. I would be if I were in your shoes. I can't wait to see the eventual SLI done with arbitrators. That will give SWAPA something hard to swallow. "You can't always get what you want......" Even SWAPA.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

How can you talk circumstances when you can't even agree on the definition of the situation (it's that aquisition vs. merger thing again).

It's an aquisition of Airtran with a merger of seniority list down the road. How far down the road is still to be determined.

Chase is right about how the future could turn out. It could be very exciting for everyone on the updated list.

General, everytime you try to compare this to NW/DL you lose credibility. Not even close to the same two companies as those two. Would be like DL merging with Comair. Try again..

 

[stalker]

General please refer to post #26

 

[Bob Dylan]

Why couldn't Southwest just start hiring again and offer preferential interviews to all Guadaloupe pilots to get the ones who really want to work at SWA over first?

At least then the rest of the Guadaloupe pilots wouldn't be able to ruin it for the pilots who really want to go to Southwest. I can see that happening.

 

[General Lee]

It's an aquisition of Airtran with a merger of seniority list down the road. How far down the road is still to be determined.

Chase is right about how the future could turn out. It could be very exciting for everyone on the updated list.

There are plenty of arbitrators ready and available to hear your case, NOW. Remember though, the last few cases really leaned on "relative" type awards. That seems to be very popular these days, and I can see why SWAPA wants to delay everything. Don't worry, those arbitrators will still be around in 2 years.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SWA/FO]

Why couldn't Southwest just start hiring again and offer preferential interviews to all Guadaloupe pilots to get the ones who really want to work at SWA over first?

At least then the rest of the Guadaloupe pilots wouldn't be able to ruin it for the pilots who really want to go to Southwest. I can see that happening.

Tristar come to mind..

General Lee - You don't know anything about SWA or SWAPA. You know about Delta, thats it. You bring nothing to this conversation, as always.

 

[redflyer65]

There are plenty of arbitrators ready and available to hear your case, NOW. Remember though, the last few cases really leaned on "relative" type awards. That seems to be very popular these days, and I can see why SWAPA wants to delay everything. Don't worry, those arbitrators will still be around in 2 years.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I'm not sure there ever will be an SLI, it still depends on how things play out. The odds of realitive seniority are zero with no SLI. Gary created Guadaloupe Holdings for a reason. If ALPA pushes that hard, it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[General Lee]

General please refer to post #26

Delta "technically" aquired NWA. The Delta CEO stayed in charge, and appointed people he liked from both companies to various management positions. There was still a joint contract done first, followed by an SLI via 3 arbitrators that followed, and it seemed very "relative". If you try to say your's is differnent, then you are wrong. The "aquisition" had some cash involved, but was mainly a stock swap. Delta was deemed "the aquirer."


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General,

I'm not sure there ever will be an SLI, it still depends on how things play out. The odds of realitive seniority are zero with no SLI. Gary created Guadaloupe Holdings for a reason. If ALPA pushes that hard, it will be interesting to see what happens.

Making one side of a merger or aquistion mad just won't make LUV see any synergies, and it could really DRAG on SWA's profitability overall. SWAPA can threaten all they want, but legal challenges will probably force an arbitrated SLI, and that will most likely lead to even more upset pilots, this time on your side. Sounds like anything other than a staple would ENRAGE your team. That just doesn't happen these days, in any merger or aquisition. I understand the threats with Guadaloupe holdings etc, and we all know that is just a blanket threat, but the AT guys holding out will produce a more fair SLI via arbitration, and hatred between both groups. This won't help your competitiveness in ATL or anywhere else, and I am sure some other airline CEOs are hoping that happens. That would be too bad for you and the AT guys.

And you comparing your merger with Delta merging with Comair is just wrong. Comair doesn't have the same planes, or fly different routes (INTL). Airtran has equal plane sizes to yours, is a LCCs, and flies to places you don't. Bad comparison, and you know that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[GuppyWN]

"no comment" Then why post it?
For all of you that keep saying you don't want to destroy your "culture" at SWA, seems like you are doing a fine job of it yourselves.

Loosen up my brother. The "no comment" quote was to simply show that I am following advice for once and not saying anything derogatory or inflammatory or SLI related.

The only comment I will make is about the "4-way talks" and that is to say we aren't ALPA so 4-way talks are most certainly NOT common place in acquisitions, unless it's ALPA on ALPA love. If a "4-way" wasn't the case in ALPA/ALPA you'd be ripe for DFR lawsuits. In the ALPA/SWAPA case it's simply each union negotiating for its' members.

I look forward to a speedy resolution and a bright future with my Airtran bro's.

Gup

 

[jonjuan]

Good one. I love the debating skills of you and Jonjuan.

Ahhhh....some little guy got his feelings hurt. Run back to mommy's big arms now.

 

[chase]

GL,

There is no cookbook to a "perfect" merger/acquisition. Each one is different, each scenario has more differences than similarities to past mergers/acquisitions. Using DL/NWA as the poster child is of no more value than using the RAH/F9 one.

That being said, SWAPA is taking the approach it is taking because its members (within the legal limits of BM and AM) have directed it to. If DL hadn't pursued what its members wanted, you and others would've have denounced them as not being representative of your own pilots.

As far as arrogance, it is an anonymous board, knowing who works for whom is difficult if not impossible at best. Attributing posts as representative of a pilot group would be like saying all DL are like you? They aren't are they? A search of the forum would find probably a 1 v 1 post that could make the same argument for AAI pilots but I know from my own experience the AAI pilots I have met have all been very similar to the pilots I fly with at SWA...top notch folks.

SWAPA has been communicating with the AT MEC unlike your statement. I can understand your confusion and misunderstanding since you are not employed by either airline and don't have access to all of the information.

The issue has been SWAPA hasn't agreed to the positions that the AT MEC has put forward....that doesn't mean they aren't communicating! If it does, then my wife and I haven't been communicating on many topics, nor my kids since we come to different conclusions many times.

Two good teams made up of honorable pilot who disagree....nothing sinister or "bad" about that. That doesn't necessarily mean someone is or should be "mad".

SWA is a part of that equation in the opinion of AT but if SWA doesn't wish to engage that isn't SWAPA's fault.

If at the end of the day the AT MEC finds it as a showstopper and doesn't wish to complete a Process Agreement because of it, then the AT MEC should get direction from their membership and let the chips fall where they may (kind of like arbitration). I'm fine with that and so should be the AAI pilots I would think.

As far as the website, it is an instrument to share information in as clear and concise manner as possible.

AAI has the opportunity to do the same and if they feel it is of value to their members and to the public, then that is great.

I'm all for transparency and I applaud SWAPA for putting the information out there. It may not excite some who read it; some obviously disagree with it but everyone is certainly better informed after reviewing the material.

Like anything however, there are many sides to the story and the bias is always there, it is only one side of the story. Readers certainly should evaluate multiple sources of information with the full understanding that those sources won't be without biases also.

Arbitration maybe the final result and if so, no worries from my standpoint or from many within AAI I suspect. It is not a sign of failure but one step in the process as I see it.

We'll all live with it and prosper as a result of either a negotiated settlement, mediated settlement or arbitrated settlement.

As far as a culture is concern, I'm confident the vast majority of new and old SWA pilots will see that it continues...that doesn't mean the result will not make for a few malcontents and those will populate and feed those on here and other places who hope for our failure....so nothing will have changed will it except there will be an airline with 7300 pilots focused on being the best airline possible. That bodes will for our future I contend. Cheers,