AirTran MEC Chair message.

[K-Mart]

Sorry guy but I do feel for you over there. It is what it is. Frankly anything could happen.

I do know this though the more sh!t you flinge the more you will get
on yourself.

As far as it not "working like that" your referring to a made up scenario any way. Feel for you but reality is reality and the moment you guys rejected that first TA it was OVER. Filing a grievance or sueing southwest will only make it worse for you.

 

[4day]

Now that's why I don't shop at Kmart.

 

[Lear70]

Sorry guy but I do feel for you over there. It is what it is. Frankly anything could happen.

It could, which is why I don't leave any stone un-turned. As Contract Compliance, our job is to enforce the contract. If a company has made a business decision that's in violation of the contract, we fix it if possible, and if not we get as much as possible for the membership as possible given the circumstances that's within reason. Period. That's what ANY Contract Compliance committee does. Yours included.

As far as it not "working like that" your referring to a made up scenario any way.

Ummmm, no we're not. It's a very real contract violation. The attorneys agree. And a grievance will be filed if it goes down like it appears to be working out.

Feel for you but reality is reality and the moment you guys rejected that first TA it was OVER. Filing a grievance or sueing southwest will only make it worse for you.

If you're inferring that it's OK for you to file a grievance over a sticker on a plane but it's not OK for us to file a grievance over our own Scope violation, I think that's pretty hypocritical.

We aren't advocating some crazy job action; we're acting within the scope and allowance of the Railway Labor Act. We will do what we need to do, try to work with management to find a solution in the mean time, and we will still come to work, do our jobs, take care of the passengers, and come home to our families.

Life will go on... just relax and see what management and the Association can work out. No reason to get hostile, just as we didn't get hostile about the "sticker violation". Just chill and have a frosty beverage.

 

[redflyer65]

Speaking of the 'Sticker Greivance', I believe the result was that the company put up matching funds for Ronald McDonald House van purchases (I'm not sure how many new vans were bought, but it was more than a few). It was a differenent way to handle a straight forward greivance for sure. I think if SWAPA had demanded XX,XXX thousand dollars for each pilot then it would have gotten ugly quickly and we most likely would still be trying to hammer out a resolution with the company.

 

[K-Mart]

Guy I am relaxed and not hostile. I'm top half of the list.

You going to Delta is a made up scenario. Go for it though and ask, maybe it will work out. It would be better for the guys at southwest no doubt. But seriously, Delta is not going to go for it. You really think they will??

Go file a grievance! Just remember the more poop you fling the more you will get on yourself. Thought u would have learned something after TA1 but maybe not. I would not put want to piss southwest off while you are not on the list and all the while asking to go with the planes. See my first post for a possible scenario for what might happen.

Guy I feel nothing good about this and if it was me u would be on southwest pay. Don't know what to tell you honestly. I feel bad but even

Good luck to u!

 

[PCL_128]

I would not put want to piss southwest off while you are not on the list

We are on the list.

 

[K-Mart]

We are on the list.

Really everyone at AirTran is on the southwest pilot list?

I thought they joined the list when they transitioned over and completed southwest training

 

[PCL_128]

Nope. Read the seniority integration agreement. Every AirTran pilot is on the Southwest Airlines pilot master seniority list.

 

[4day]

Why can't some SW guys just say " yeah you AirTran guys are being screwed". Is it that hard? There MGT made this and it is time to start defending what little we have left. Some SW guys are so concerened what we get when they just got 300 plus more CA seats. Also Heard the ramp in ATL will all be outsourced on the AirTran side to make all the rampers relocated to have a job. Talk about forcing people to quit but they have a job right? Hope it's not true but it sounds exactly how SW works. Just look at the FA deal.

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70.... You actually think its going to happen? Give me odds?

Odds? I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

That said, do I think they worked out a deal for us to go with the planes?

No. They were supposed to, but I don't think they did.

Do I think they will work out a deal for us to go with the planes with any kind of seniority?

No.

Beyond that, I'll leave it up to the CCC Chair and MEC; it's well above my pay grade. I know what I'd be asking for in a grievance settlement, and I think it would make everyone happy all around, but that's a negotiating committee (which I'm not involved with anymore) and CCC Chair/MEC Chair issue to work out. I'll give them my solution proposal and if it's used, whole or in part, great. If not, hey, I gave my .02 cents and will live with whatever they work out.

That's the process we have, for better or worse.

 

[redflyer65]

What happened with the FA's?

 

[PCL_128]

What happened with the FA's?

All of them will be forced to commute because of the long delay in opening an ATL domicile for the FAs. Most of us believe it's an attempt by SWA management to get many of them to quit. One captain I flew with recently referred to it as "Southwest's ethnic cleansing program."

 

[puddlejumper101]

here is something I have not read on this, why on Earth would Delta want pilots with the planes? To them, that has absolutely nothing to do with the 717. The pilots are SWA's problem, why would they even consider that? I think DAL taking pilots is a dream scenario for some ATN guys, but not realistic at all. Why would they even open that can of worms?

BTW, I am a glass half full guy, and still think that in the end it will be ok. I didn't say great, I said ok. But until we get to that point (guessing 2015 sometime), it will hurt especially for the Airtran guys since they are the ones going through the most change. Change isn't easy for anyone, and just like SWA bought ATN, someone else can come along and buy SWA. Stranger things have happened.... MORAL OF THE STORY: ENJOY THE JOURNEY, NOT THE DESTINATION BECAUSE IT CAN GET WORSE FOR ANYONE AND EVERYONE AT A MOMENTS NOTICE. We have jobs....we all have jobs...start there.

 

[maxblast72]

You know as well as I do that the non-aircraft-specific CA retention slots wouldn't have survived this scenario, either. And I quote, "In the event of an overall reduction in the NUMBER of Captain seats, pilots will bid their system seniority..." Combined with SL10, restricting any AirTran Captain from holding 737 CA until 1/1/15, and poof... non-aircraft-specific CA retention slots gone.

You need to read Side Letter 9 Paragraph H.1 and H.2 and the Q&A #37 and #38 again. After hearing Gary Kelly speak on July 14th about how much he didn't like the economics of the B717 in light of only having 117 seats, the MC knew the CA retention slots would have to be non-aircraft specific and be useful if the B717 exited the fleet prior to lease expiration. Yes, had SIA #1 been ratified by both sides, some AirTran Captains could have been downgraded if less B737s were delivered prior to a certain number B717 leaving. However, all AirTran pilots with a CA retention slot had to be offered reupgrade prior to any SWA FO upgrades. From everything we heard, it was the CA retention slot program that caused the loudest uproar at the initial SWAPA Side Letter 9 roadshows.

It's not proof of anything, except that the pay was a powerful argument. We set the bar for a 2.5-3 year DOH loss being "fair" and probably hosed everyone else in the process, not to mention that no other work group relies on seniority to "upgrade" into a 50-60% pay raise. Seniority is much more critical for our work group than any other airline employee. As such, you can't use a labor group's results that were BASED on our agreement to retroactively "predict" our outcome in arbitration. It's a paradoxical argument, not to mention non-similar in sensitivity to overall seniority placement in their overall income expectancy.

After 3 days of hearings, the 3 NMB arbitrators included the statements like these in their award:

"While we are unpersuaded that this a merger of equals..."

"... but the post-merger benefits are more heavily the product of Southwest's contributions and the "sweat equity" of the Southwest employees is greater not only in terms of years of service, but in terms of the value of each of those years of service towards the newly combined carrier."

I think you have fallen into the typical pilot trap, overestimating one's arbitration position. Obtaining a straight DOH list from an arbitration panel was not likely. Our pilots should of had 30 days of road shows, been able to ask the tough questions to the MC and MEC, and then had the opportunity to make an informed decision on their future. Of course, our MEC thought differently and decided to put all the weight onto their shoulders on August 18th.

 

[redflyer65]

All of them will be forced to commute because of the long delay in opening an ATL domicile for the FAs. Most of us believe it's an attempt by SWA management to get many of them to quit. One captain I flew with recently referred to it as "Southwest's ethnic cleansing program."

Got it. I've heard a rumor that some AAI FAs have had some issues with the training in Dallas. (up to and including termination). Anyone heard the same?

And for the record, I had a AAI FA worked very hard to help me stay on the plane after the gate agents were pulling me. She went above and beyond to help me and I was very grateful. The gate agents were kinda clueless but it all worked out in the end......also thanks to a DH AAI pilot.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Go ahead and file, it never hurts to swing for the fences, but be prepared to be disappointed with the outcome, it's a loser from the word go.

Ya, no kidding. I empathize with the Airtran people, but to think GK and SWA just simply missed the fact that over 1000 717 pilots could file a fragmentation clause violation lawsuit because of the sublease to DAL....

Do you guys think these teams of smart Lawyers forgot to read fragmentation clause pages? Maybe the pages were stuck together with chewing gum, or something else?

One thing is for sure, Airtran pilots are fortunate to have people like you guys looking out for them and trying every avenue to ensure their best interests.

 

[PCL_128]

Got it. I've heard a rumor that some AAI FAs have had some issues with the training in Dallas. (up to and including termination). Anyone heard the same?

I haven't heard that, but since the same kinds of rumors were going around about AirTran pilots having trouble in training, and it all turned out to be completely false, I would hesitate to believe it about the FAs, either.

 

[redflyer65]

I haven't heard that, but since the same kinds of rumors were going around about AirTran pilots having trouble in training, .

I had never heard that, I think Quiet made it up from the get go. I wouldn't expect any issues with the pilots coming over at all. Cooperate and graduate is the name of the game in Dallas.

 

[Lear70]

I think you have fallen into the typical pilot trap, overestimating one's arbitration position. Obtaining a straight DOH list from an arbitration panel was not likely. Our pilots should of had 30 days of road shows, been able to ask the tough questions to the MC and MEC, and then had the opportunity to make an informed decision on their future. Of course, our MEC thought differently and decided to put all the weight onto their shoulders on August 18th.

And you're not listening.

I have no interest in listening to a prediction of an arbitration that never happened based on results that were based on OUR acceptance of a 2.5-3 year hit on Date of Hire. It's circular, and it's nonsensical. Period. Not to mention...

IT'S OVER!!

The simple fact is that the sooner you quit bringing it up, the sooner we can move on.

We have a whole new set of concerns to occupy us. Can we stay focused?

 

[General Lee]

here is something I have not read on this, why on Earth would Delta want pilots with the planes? To them, that has absolutely nothing to do with the 717. The pilots are SWA's problem, why would they even consider that? I think DAL taking pilots is a dream scenario for some ATN guys, but not realistic at all. Why would they even open that can of worms?

BTW, I am a glass half full guy, and still think that in the end it will be ok. I didn't say great, I said ok. But until we get to that point (guessing 2015 sometime), it will hurt especially for the Airtran guys since they are the ones going through the most change. Change isn't easy for anyone, and just like SWA bought ATN, someone else can come along and buy SWA. Stranger things have happened.... MORAL OF THE STORY: ENJOY THE JOURNEY, NOT THE DESTINATION BECAUSE IT CAN GET WORSE FOR ANYONE AND EVERYONE AT A MOMENTS NOTICE. We have jobs....we all have jobs...start there.

No, most want the 717s. They will take back a lot of regional routes when the 200 50 seat RJs are parked, if the TA passes.


Bye Bye---General Lee