AirTran MEC Chair message.

[redflyer65]

Pure speculation....

I don't think there will be an offer for the AAI pilots to go with the planes, and I suspect Gary will work the numbers to avoid the CBA clause. That's my guess. It's going to get interesting for sure.

 

[waveflyer]

Lear,
Don't kid yourself, I will welcome every single AT pilot here- but most of swapa wins if AT pilots go with the airplanes to delta. I don't see anyone having angst over that. We're all a bit miffed that 2/3 of your fleet are being sold while we had to integrate all of you. Many of whom would rather be at delta.
In regards to the partition, ATALPa also is party to the transition agreement, that outlays the schedule for moving AT planes to swa. Since those aircraft were scheduled to come over at about the same rate, I don't see where that would trigger the language. Nothing really changes. Just instead of painting 717's and putting them in the system, we get new 73's. Though I wish you could get a choice out of it.

 

[JT12345]

I don't think the Delta pilots have to worry about us going over there with relative senority. They will simply vote ALPA off the property.

 

[mokitty]

Closer to a 14-year upgrade for me, 18 for PCL, staying at SWA.

Lear,

Just curious what info you are using to determine an approximate 14 year upgrade. I'm significantly more senior on the ISL than you, and the SWAPA upgrade projector used during the SLI voting showed me crossing the 50% line at @17 years. Assumed no growth and all retirements being replaced. No flame, just wondering.

Thanks.

 

[PCL_128]

mokitty, are you measuring from your original date of hire, or from right now? Lear70 is using time from right now, and his number matches what the seniority projector that we have is showing for me. I'll upgrade in 16 years, or about 22 years from original ATN date of hire.

 

[scoreboardII]

Wrong. Our contract is with AirTran Airways, a wholly owned subsidiary of Southwest. Southwest's aircraft and block hours on your side of the partition do not pertain to our contractual fragmentation language. Replacing 717s by putting new airplanes on the other side of the partition doesn't comply with our scope language.

yes it does, sorry.

 

[PCL_128]

yes it does, sorry.

You're right, of course you know our CBA better than we do. How silly of me to think otherwise.

 

[scoreboardII]

Hell, remember SWAPA filing the grievance because of the sticker that was put on one of our 737s the day of corporate closing? None of us bitched about that. I don't see any reason why a SWAPA pilot should bitch about us filing a grievance to enforce our agreement, especially when it has zero negative effect on any SWAPA pilot.

I say have a nut, good luck!

 

[mokitty]

mokitty, are you measuring from your original date of hire, or from right now? Lear70 is using time from right now, and his number matches what the seniority projector that we have is showing for me. I'll upgrade in 16 years, or about 22 years from original ATN date of hire.

Thanks. That answers my question. I was basing on my DOH at SWA.

 

[scoreboardII]

That's not what our language says.

It doesn't say "if furloughs are triggered", it simply says if 30% of the block hours in a one-year look-back are sold or transferred, every "commercial best effort" will be made to transfer the pilots with the planes.

There is no caveat for job loss in there. The language is triggered; I highly doubt they'll argue that. What they'll likely say is they expended their "commercial best effort" and it didn't happen.

30% per year. So if it takes more than three years and results in 29% reduction per year, which is most likely how this deal goes down, now what? See, no problem.

I get it, try and get all you can, best of luck, I'd like to see you all go off to mother DAL just as much as you all want to go to mother DAL.

 

[PCL_128]

30% per year. So if it takes more than three years and results in 29% reduction per year, which is most likely how this deal goes down, now what? See, no problem.

The deal is already pretty clear. Airplanes are all gone in 2015. He may be able to stretch it a little bit to avoid hitting the trigger in 2014, but then he hits it in 2015 no matter what.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,
Don't kid yourself, I will welcome every single AT pilot here- but most of swapa wins if AT pilots go with the airplanes to delta. I don't see anyone having angst over that. We're all a bit miffed that 2/3 of your fleet are being sold while we had to integrate all of you. Many of whom would rather be at delta.

Thanks for the welcome and yes, I'd imagine you would be... This is more in line with what I thought most SWAPA pilots would think of the issue.

In regards to the partition, ATALPa also is party to the transition agreement, that outlays the schedule for moving AT planes to swa. Since those aircraft were scheduled to come over at about the same rate, I don't see where that would trigger the language. Nothing really changes. Just instead of painting 717's and putting them in the system, we get new 73's. Though I wish you could get a choice out of it.

Because we specifically waived protections to our CBA (1.D.2 is what covers what you're talking about) in OUR side letter for the SLI, and limits those aircraft coming to Southwest.

It's the transfer to an outside 3rd party certificated air carrier that triggers the language.

I know that the MEC leadership is discussing it with management. We'll just have to wait and see what comes of it in the coming weeks.

 

[Lear70]

30% per year. So if it takes more than three years and results in 29% reduction per year, which is most likely how this deal goes down, now what? See, no problem.

I think you missed the announcement: 88 total aircraft, 16 in 2013, 36 in 2014, the last 36 in 2015.

It's not going to take more than 3 years. It's going to take 2 1/2 and, as I said, I don't think they'll try to say the language wasn't triggered, I think they'll say they tried and Delta said No (which is what they've already said at the round-table and have said in the crew room visits).

 

[Lear70]

Thanks. That answers my question. I was basing on my DOH at SWA.

Yes, PCL beat me to the answer. If I use my original hire date, upgrade at SWA is a total of 20-21 years from DoH, assuming 2% annual growth.

 

[fam62c]

No AT pilots are going to DAL with the planes and any grievance filed will be a loser because of the words "best effort." "Well Mr. arbitrator we gave it our best effort but DAL said no to taking any pilots with the planes and furthermore nobody is losing their job so what's the big deal?" Case closed, "best effort" or even "commercial best effort" is not the same as the word "will," it's one of those feel-good words that makes one party feel like they negotiated something of value while giving the other party an escape clause. You have no chance with that grievance......zero, I would guess that SW probably did give it their best effort because they would be happier with zero longevity new hires from a cost standpoint.

The intent of that language is clearly to mitigate job losses and unless something changed job losses aren't going to happen. It would be great if some of the AT pilots had the option to go to DAL with seniority, seats and longevity but the DAL pilots (and DAL management for that matter) don't want any part of that. Go ahead and file, it never hurts to swing for the fences, but be prepared to be disappointed with the outcome, it's a loser from the word go.

 

[vixin]

"commercial best effort"

Can you define that? Maybe they already gave their best effort and came to an agreement already.

Arbi: Did you Mr Kelly give your best effort?
Mr Kelly: Yes
Arbi: Did you Mr Anderson give your best effort?
Mr Anderson: Yes
Arbi: AAI ALPO give it a rest already.

 

[vixin]

Darn you beat me to it.

 

[K-Mart]

What if Delta takes the planes and parks them in the desert replacing them with -900s. Want to go with the planes then?

 

[Lear70]

What if Delta takes the planes and parks them in the desert replacing them with -900s. Want to go with the planes then?

*snerk*

Doesn't work like that. Once a pilot goes to Delta, they're at Delta.

But nice try.

 

[SWA/FO]

Lear 70.... You actually think its going to happen? Give me odds?

 

[K-Mart]

Sorry guy but I do feel for you over there. It is what it is. Frankly anything could happen.

I do know this though the more sh!t you flinge the more you will get
on yourself.

As far as it not "working like that" your referring to a made up scenario any way. Feel for you but reality is reality and the moment you guys rejected that first TA it was OVER. Filing a grievance or sueing southwest will only make it worse for you.

 

[4day]

Now that's why I don't shop at Kmart.

 

[Lear70]

Sorry guy but I do feel for you over there. It is what it is. Frankly anything could happen.

It could, which is why I don't leave any stone un-turned. As Contract Compliance, our job is to enforce the contract. If a company has made a business decision that's in violation of the contract, we fix it if possible, and if not we get as much as possible for the membership as possible given the circumstances that's within reason. Period. That's what ANY Contract Compliance committee does. Yours included.

As far as it not "working like that" your referring to a made up scenario any way.

Ummmm, no we're not. It's a very real contract violation. The attorneys agree. And a grievance will be filed if it goes down like it appears to be working out.

Feel for you but reality is reality and the moment you guys rejected that first TA it was OVER. Filing a grievance or sueing southwest will only make it worse for you.

If you're inferring that it's OK for you to file a grievance over a sticker on a plane but it's not OK for us to file a grievance over our own Scope violation, I think that's pretty hypocritical.

We aren't advocating some crazy job action; we're acting within the scope and allowance of the Railway Labor Act. We will do what we need to do, try to work with management to find a solution in the mean time, and we will still come to work, do our jobs, take care of the passengers, and come home to our families.

Life will go on... just relax and see what management and the Association can work out. No reason to get hostile, just as we didn't get hostile about the "sticker violation". Just chill and have a frosty beverage.

 

[redflyer65]

Speaking of the 'Sticker Greivance', I believe the result was that the company put up matching funds for Ronald McDonald House van purchases (I'm not sure how many new vans were bought, but it was more than a few). It was a differenent way to handle a straight forward greivance for sure. I think if SWAPA had demanded XX,XXX thousand dollars for each pilot then it would have gotten ugly quickly and we most likely would still be trying to hammer out a resolution with the company.

 

[K-Mart]

Guy I am relaxed and not hostile. I'm top half of the list.

You going to Delta is a made up scenario. Go for it though and ask, maybe it will work out. It would be better for the guys at southwest no doubt. But seriously, Delta is not going to go for it. You really think they will??

Go file a grievance! Just remember the more poop you fling the more you will get on yourself. Thought u would have learned something after TA1 but maybe not. I would not put want to piss southwest off while you are not on the list and all the while asking to go with the planes. See my first post for a possible scenario for what might happen.

Guy I feel nothing good about this and if it was me u would be on southwest pay. Don't know what to tell you honestly. I feel bad but even

Good luck to u!

 

[PCL_128]

I would not put want to piss southwest off while you are not on the list

We are on the list.

 

[K-Mart]

We are on the list.

Really everyone at AirTran is on the southwest pilot list?

I thought they joined the list when they transitioned over and completed southwest training

 

[PCL_128]

Nope. Read the seniority integration agreement. Every AirTran pilot is on the Southwest Airlines pilot master seniority list.

 

[4day]

Why can't some SW guys just say " yeah you AirTran guys are being screwed". Is it that hard? There MGT made this and it is time to start defending what little we have left. Some SW guys are so concerened what we get when they just got 300 plus more CA seats. Also Heard the ramp in ATL will all be outsourced on the AirTran side to make all the rampers relocated to have a job. Talk about forcing people to quit but they have a job right? Hope it's not true but it sounds exactly how SW works. Just look at the FA deal.

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70.... You actually think its going to happen? Give me odds?

Odds? I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

That said, do I think they worked out a deal for us to go with the planes?

No. They were supposed to, but I don't think they did.

Do I think they will work out a deal for us to go with the planes with any kind of seniority?

No.

Beyond that, I'll leave it up to the CCC Chair and MEC; it's well above my pay grade. I know what I'd be asking for in a grievance settlement, and I think it would make everyone happy all around, but that's a negotiating committee (which I'm not involved with anymore) and CCC Chair/MEC Chair issue to work out. I'll give them my solution proposal and if it's used, whole or in part, great. If not, hey, I gave my .02 cents and will live with whatever they work out.

That's the process we have, for better or worse.